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well, if you have 15 strength 8 shots for two full turns of shooting, assuming that they are all BS3, no one is fortuned or that the nobs did not turbo boost, you will hit 15 times, wound 13 times and kill about 6 with one wound on the warboss.

Thats is not bad actually. If you fortune the missle walkers it helps a lot, but then eldrad is no where near the rest of your army (I am assuming).

The only problem I see is that what you are proposing wont be possible as things like the firedragons or the autarch wont be in range for two turns because the bikers are so fast.

the pathfinders might also do some damage, hitting 6 times, 3 of which will be ap1 shots. That would give you roughly 1 ap1 unsaved wound, and .5 regular unsaved wounds.

Well, actually, that isnt so hot.

And by the way, math hammering this stuff is easy.

Just take the number of attacks or shots, multiply it by the chance of hitting .5 for BS3, .666 for BS4, etc, then multiply that number by the odds of wounding, then that number by the odds of bypasing any saves. Its really easy.

For example a squad of 9 marines shooting a sqaud of 9 chaos marines (9 is an easier number to work with in this case)

9 shots at BS4 gives you a 66% chance to hit (or 2/3 or .666) = 6 hits.
6 hits at a 50% chance to wound (or 1/2 or .5) = 3 wounds.
3 wounds at a 33% chanec to bypass armor (or 1/3 or .333) = 1 Dead Chaos Marine, or any MEQ on average.

See, its simple once you get the hang of it.

@Mikeguth
The powerklaws are what waste the WG, the fortune save does nothig to stop that unfortunately.

@Oldskool
Yeah, you got the gist of it, but I think Khan in a Landraider with a big squad of assault termies and a chappy is the biz.

It hits much harder than the bikers, is more resilient and is just as mobile while teamed up with the LRC. The biker command squad is bad ass too, but when you factor out the Land Raider which can do its own thing after delivering the cargo, the termy squad is cheaper and I think will give you more utility.

But that is just my opinion. I have run that type of squad many times and it hits stupid hard, the only problem is that after it usualy overkills its target it is just standing there to get hammered.

Same with the bike command squad though I would imagine, although I have not used that setup yet (but I wil soon, have an order in the mail for some new bikes!)

Reecius wrote:
30 Guided fire dragons will hit roughly 17 times (assuming they are all in range of course), wound 14 times, kill 6 bikers and put one wound on the warboss. That aint bad.

Had to poke at this... 30 firedragons will hit a lot more than 17 times, with one squad guided. without guide, 30 will hit 20 times, the guide on one squad adds in another hit or 2. 22 hits iscloser to 18-19 wounds, and even if turbo-boosted knocks out half the unit. Even better, with that many hits, he has to allocate and roll, so he has very little control over which of the nobs gets removed (good chance of killing the painboy).

Hooray for more bike players!!!!

The thing about the bike command is:
1: MUCH cheaper than any termie+LRC combo (290 vs. over 500)
2: MUCH faster overall, with TB, outflank, Hit'n'Run, etc
3: superkilly against all armies, especially since outflank gives you the jump on anything
4: Better overall because I already have them....

It has less total powerweapon swings than a lot of things...but then again, how many power weapons do you need?!

Also, if you play bikes together well, its pretty easy to keep the command bikes in at least 4+ cover after wiping a unit (TB another bike unit to obscure LOS for the command bikes after they massacre their target.)



As for how Eldar beat them, I run a mech-eldar army, and my general thought on this is to keep my serpents and falcons scooting 12" a turn, so that they are only hit on 6s, while keeping them under the fire of S8 guns (lances, pulselasers).

I know its not perfect, and wont stand up to harsh Mathhammering, but in this case I intend to not play the numbers, rather I would play the other player. If he intends to run such a HUGE point unit, I'll do my best to make sure those points are wasted. he can chase my skimmers all day, but he would still have to work pretty hard to bring them down. Afterall, I would wager that someone who runs such a 1-dimentional list in a tournament is probably pretty 1-dimentional in playing them. Give them a bright pink bunny-rabbit to chase clear across the far end of the board, and that nasty unit of hellish doom will be far far away from anything he can hurt.

Eventually, he will fail those 4+ coversaves ( always assaulting means no TB), and will run low on bikes. He is welcome to eat the occasional DA squad that falls out, but by the end of the game, he isnt likely to truly get his points back. and while he is doing this, I can go ahead and actaully play the mission.

0ldsk00l wrote:
I know its not perfect, and wont stand up to harsh Mathhammering,

Yeah you are right.

0ldsk00l wrote:
Afterall, I would wager that someone who runs such a 1-dimentional list in a tournament is probably pretty 1-dimentional in playing them. Give them a bright pink bunny-rabbit to chase clear across the far end of the board, and that nasty unit of hellish doom will be far far away from anything he can hurt.

A little history. This list was initially thought of by many as too gimmicky. The changes in 5th made it alot better. A player who was 0-22 with the new Ork Codex was given this army awhile back and did a complete 180 turn around. His actual tactical abilities are moving forward and assaulting. He rarely loses these days.

mikeguth wrote:Dear Centurion,

Wraithguard only get one wound, but ditto for Terminators faced by a power klaw. Wraithguard with fortune, reroll saves, which means that only 1/9 hits is a kill. And, you still have to hit them (they can be WS 5), and wound them. I think about 1/20 attacks will wound......It's not a win, but it is a potential tarpit, while the Wraithlords and Avatar, or perhaps Wraithlords and Shining Spears beat up on the other Nob Bikers....

Without an invulnerable save, I'm not seeing what you're talking about. The cover save from conceal doesn't help them at all in HTH, and for a large squad, most people I've seen go with conceal over enhance. With 10 wraithguard plus a warlock, and 21 power fist attacks that hit on 3+ coming in...you're going to have to be extremely lucky just to see the squad have survive the initial nob biker charge.

I stand corrected, had forgotten that they would ignore armor saves even if S wasn't double T. Back to the drawing board....

I'd suggest that too much of this thread focuses on the Nob Bikers doing what you want them to and getting all of the Eldar forces in the right place at the right time. It is not a discussion of how what tactics to use, or even how to modify a list, but is too much about designing and anti-Nob Biker list.

An army might realistically have avengers, dragons and pathfinders all together. The trick must be to use them in conjunction, not find one all-powerful answer to the problem?

I was thinking of my BA here regards to many of the points I made and these tactics are how I beat nob bikers. My BA list was not specifically tailor made to beat nob bikers either. Having a mechanized army forces the nobs to assault the tanks first, which guarantees your army the charge bonus. I have a lot of power fists and melta weapons plus Dante (preferred enemy and reduce enemy WS by -1 plus Corbulo for furious charge). With average luck I can kill one squad of nob bikers the first turn of close combat and if the warboss manages to survive he probably going to break and will not be able to regroup. This puts a dent in my army but now there is only one squad of nob bikers left and I have more mobile units and can win by holding more objectives. I like to deep strike a squad of jump infantry close to the lootas... they take one round of shooting then what is left pulverized the lootas. My opponent now has one scoring unit left while I have two to three. It's an easy win at this point which usually takes place late in the game.

I think these types of tactics can be used successfully by other armies such as eldar and that is why I posted here.

G

Centurian99 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The nob biker army has some inherent weaknesses such as low unit count in objective based games. Low model count only helps them in KP missions and then it is a big advantage for this army. Chances are though that you will play them in an objective based mission. Typically there are only three to four total units in a nob biker army. You have to focus on the two squads of nob bikers which takes the heat off of the other ork units.

The sheer survivability of the nob bikers and the fact they're troops, goes a long way towards minimizing that disadvantage, to the point that its almost an advantage. Except for some esorteric combos and terminators, there's no single unit in the game that can meet them head to head, and very few of comparable points that can do so either. Most of those are mutual-death situations, where you're going to lose whatever you throw at them, even if you kill of the bikers.

Having objectives in a lot of ways works in the Ork player's favor...because objectives, by their nature, tend to tie down an army. Even if you want to stay mobile, you've got to keep your units within the range that they can move in on turn 4/5 and secure the objective, which means that they have a relatively limited zone that they can operate in.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
From a power armor perspective using transports to mechanize your army helps and I would also use this approach with eldar. If your army is mechanized this forces the nobs to deal with your armor first. Once a squad of nobs has charged a transport to destroy it in close combat this leaves them exposed to both shooting without the 3+ cover save and counter assaults. You want to make sure you charge the nobs for the +1 attack bonus and anything else such as furious charge (Harlequins).

Really, the only time I think transports actually hurts the nob bikers is when the things inside are credible, effective threats against them...namely, units such as fire dragons (en masse), sternguard with combi-meltas, terminators with thunder hammers, abaddon, etc. Otherwise, all the transport player is doing is delaying, and when their transports are cracked, their ability to secure objectives goes down the tubes.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
I would consider using fire dragons so that you can insta kill nobs with shooting. Also charge them with shining spears so that the exarch can insta kill nobs with the star lance at initiative. I would use fire prisms to kill the non nob units such as lootas. Once you have inflicted some losses into the nobs they have been whittled down... still tough as nails but now they are more vulnerable to failing leadership tests. You should concentrate on first killing the warboss in close combat first which is possible with a lot of high strength attacks. Once you kill the warboss the remaining nobs are even more vulnerable to leadership tests.

Good basic points, GBF, but you forgot one key thing: unless you're Tau and have access to markerlights, or Guard with access to Hellhounds, or have some other way of ignoring cover saves, taking down nob bikers with non-massed S8 shooting is an invitation to Epic Fail.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Another tactic is to kill one bike squad first... as a single squad of nob bikers is not half as good as two. Now mobility is on your side and the other one or two ork units are much more exposed.
G

Absolutely. Of course, you still have to be able to kill one, and relatively quickly. If you can't kill a sqad of nob bikers until turn 4, you've lost, because those nob bikers have spent 3 turns in assault and probably killed off 75% of your army.

Fifty, you need to read the rest of this thread.

In regards to nobs cover save you have to catch them in situations where they have not TBd then soak them. I can lay down 7-8 melta shots on one squad which equates to 3-4 dead nobs. If my opponent takes one of these wounds on the warboss all the better for me as now I only need to wound him twice in the ensuing close combat for the kill, which by the odds he will fail both 5+ invulnerable saves.

G

Blackarandras wrote:Fifty, you need to read the rest of this thread.

I've read the whole thing. I'm not saying nothing in this thread is useful, I'm just saying that a lot (not all) of it focuses on one-part methods to dispose of the bikers.

Fifty wrote:I'd suggest that too much of this thread focuses on the Nob Bikers doing what you want them to and getting all of the Eldar forces in the right place at the right time. It is not a discussion of how what tactics to use, or even how to modify a list, but is too much about designing and anti-Nob Biker list.

Um...exactly. The thread title is "How do Eldar cope with nob bikers?"

@oldskool
thanks for correcting my math, I was assuming BS3 with fortune on one squad, and I would still have been wrong! haha, I do the numbers in my head and I go fast, so I made a mistake, thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah, 30 would hit 20 times obviously, which would be 17 wounds most likely.

With guide on one squad its 1 or 2 more hits, which isnt amazing but it surely helps.

As for your point on already having the bike squad, that made me laugh because I already have a really nice looking squad for what I had previously described! haha, play with what you have, right?

I see what you are saying Fifty, we sholdn't be looking for a one unit solution, but if you read back a lot of people propose multi squad solutions to nob bikers.

The problem is that you don't have time to pull out a bunch of shenanigans, they charge you (very possibly multi-charge you) turn two. You have to have a hammer to smash them with quickly or die.

Fifty wrote:

I've read the whole thing. I'm not saying nothing in this thread is useful, I'm just saying that a lot (not all) of it focuses on one-part methods to dispose of the bikers.

There's a reason for that...namely, that you have to hit the bikers hard, or by the time you attrit them, they've caused so much damage to your force that you're screwed. It's also the reason why two squads of nob bikers are far better than one, because with most armies, its next to impossible to tarpit both units.

0ldsk00l wrote:
It has less total powerweapon swings than a lot of things...but then again, how many power weapons do you need?!

Against nob bikers - 44 S5 I5 PW attacks were barely enough.

0ldsk00l wrote:
As for how Eldar beat them, I run a mech-eldar army, and my general thought on this is to keep my serpents and falcons scooting 12" a turn, so that they are only hit on 6s, while keeping them under the fire of S8 guns (lances, pulselasers).

One turn of shooting, against a 3+ cover save, then your falcons/wave serpents are getting hit with 20 S9/S10 power klaws. Roughly three will hit, so that's 3 penetrating hits/turn.

Late-term objective grabbing is not the way to go in 5th edition, because of random game length. What happens if you zoom out on turn 5, and the game goes to 6 or 7?

Playing stand-off and shoot and trying to attrit them to death just isn't going to work well in 5th edition, because with only 5 guaranteed turns, you simply (in general) don't have enough time.

0ldsk00l wrote:
I know its not perfect, and wont stand up to harsh Mathhammering, but in this case I intend to not play the numbers, rather I would play the other player. If he intends to run such a HUGE point unit, I'll do my best to make sure those points are wasted.

Sounds good in theory, but even if all the nob player is forcing you to do is to stay away from his bikers, in an objective mission, that can be well worthwhile.

0ldsk00l wrote:and while he is doing this, I can go ahead and actaully play the mission.

You're not getting it...nob bikers EXCEL at playing the mission. Objectives? Great....since they're scoring units, the nobs effectively massive exclusion zones around the objectives where anything that enters, dies. Kill Points...well, the orks will have 5, maybe six. How many kill points are you fielding at 1750?

People are also talking about lootas in the backfield...Nob biker armies generally don't use lootas. They don't need to. The two nob biker units use up about 1500-1600 points by themselves, and the remaining points go into a squad of boyz or a squad of grots. With as many bodies as possible, you've got to dedicate more than just a single deep-striking squad to take them out...and if you do that, the nob bikers either come back and support, or they bend the rest of your army over the table.

If people were to take 100% serious Cent there would be no reason whatsoever to play against nob bikers... just shake hands and give your opponent full battle points. The fact is that nob bikers do lose such as in the ard Boys finals at least two of them lost there.

A fundamental tactic for beating them is to take out one unit fast. The remaining unit is not nearly as hard to handle.

Instead of just pointing out flaws in what people suggest here I would love to hear what you would use in an eldar army to beat them. I'm sure it can be done.

G

Centurian99 wrote:You're not getting it...nob bikers EXCEL at playing the mission. Objectives? Great....since they're scoring units, the nobs effectively massive exclusion zones around the objectives where anything that enters, dies. Kill Points...well, the orks will have 5, maybe six. How many kill points are you fielding at 1750?

People are also talking about lootas in the backfield...Nob biker armies generally don't use lootas. They don't need to. The two nob biker units use up about 1500-1600 points by themselves, and the remaining points go into a squad of boyz or a squad of grots. With as many bodies as possible, you've got to dedicate more than just a single deep-striking squad to take them out...and if you do that, the nob bikers either come back and support, or they bend the rest of your army over the table.

Also, I believe Moz's army (Best General Baltimore GT 08) had 2 units of bikerz, snikrot and kommandos, and 2 units of grotz. The kommandos with snikrot were an extra money shot in your face when you thought that you might have avoided the bikerz.

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
It has less total powerweapon swings than a lot of things...but then again, how many power weapons do you need?!

Against nob bikers - 44 S5 I5 PW attacks were barely enough.

That was a reference to the bikers overall. yes, that many may come up a tad short for THAT PERTICULAR list if I draw them in a tourney, but the rest of the time, it's almost overkill against most other things encountered in a tournament, which is why I dont run 2, or a unit with MORE powerweapons.

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
As for how Eldar beat them, I run a mech-eldar army, and my general thought on this is to keep my serpents and falcons scooting 12" a turn, so that they are only hit on 6s, while keeping them under the fire of S8 guns (lances, pulselasers).

One turn of shooting, against a 3+ cover save, then your falcons/wave serpents are getting hit with 20 S9/S10 power klaws. Roughly three will hit, so that's 3 penetrating hits/turn.

Late-term objective grabbing is not the way to go in 5th edition, because of random game length. What happens if you zoom out on turn 5, and the game goes to 6 or 7?

Playing stand-off and shoot and trying to attrit them to death just isn't going to work well in 5th edition, because with only 5 guaranteed turns, you simply (in general) don't have enough time.

If they are assaulting, they are getting a 4+ coversave. also, like I said, I am willing to feed them a vehicle in order to damage them. even with only a handful of S8+ weapons, a 4+ save doesnt save them from at least 2 turns of shooting. It wont wipe them, but it will really hurt them. (2 turns because they are getting shot by me the turn after they assault my vehicle, and assuming they kill it, they have at least one more turn of movement before they can make an attempt on another vehicle). Rinse and repeat.

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
I know its not perfect, and wont stand up to harsh Mathhammering, but in this case I intend to not play the numbers, rather I would play the other player. If he intends to run such a HUGE point unit, I'll do my best to make sure those points are wasted.

Sounds good in theory, but even if all the nob player is forcing you to do is to stay away from his bikers, in an objective mission, that can be well worthwhile.

plays both ways. if he in constantly trying to run down units that are worth a hell of a lot less than he is all game, he is wasting his time as well. in a KP mission, I can deny him my skimmers all game (18" move+assault vs 24" flat-out move), and he can't be everywhere at once, so whatever he has that is standing still remains vulnerable.

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:and while he is doing this, I can go ahead and actaully play the mission.

You're not getting it...nob bikers EXCEL at playing the mission. Objectives? Great....since they're scoring units, the nobs effectively massive exclusion zones around the objectives where anything that enters, dies. Kill Points...well, the orks will have 5, maybe six. How many kill points are you fielding at 1750?

People are also talking about lootas in the backfield...Nob biker armies generally don't use lootas. They don't need to. The two nob biker units use up about 1500-1600 points by themselves, and the remaining points go into a squad of boyz or a squad of grots. With as many bodies as possible, you've got to dedicate more than just a single deep-striking squad to take them out...and if you do that, the nob bikers either come back and support, or they bend the rest of your army over the table.

at the end of the day, they have TWO units that are going to stand a chance at capping objectives. compare that to 5 or 6 for the mech eldar. Toss a falcon on the same objectives they are tryin to cap, and it's contested. Easy to draw, not hard to win a mission like that. I never said my was was perfect, but it's what I would do to beat them (since I am not going to roll up a new list just to beat ONE army, because I dont want to lose to EVERYONE else). You can toss all the maths at it you want, but its all theoretical until you put some models down on the table across from me. until then, I like my odds, because I dont think that anyone who would ever use this list puts much thought into how to apply it.

Its like the monolith issue. Dont go crazy and try an annhilate it - go for the necrons. My point is, do the damage where you need to but try not to wipe the whole squad/s just because it can easily wipe any of yours.

Slowly saturate with wounds, then assault. Bah, silly orks. Id like to know if the mindwar issue has been clarifyed - What LD does the models use, its own in the stat line or the modifyed score in reguards to everything else.

Worse than a monolith; the bikers force you to pay attention to them unless you can tar-pit them, avoid them, or kill them.

Eldar will have trouble fielding an all-comers list that can handle Nobz Bikers also. It forces tourney Eldar to field 3 Wraithlords and possibly Karandras. You might be able to get away with just 3 Wraithlords though.

Biker Nobz make me want to buy a new Godzilla army for 5th edition.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If people were to take 100% serious Cent there would be no reason whatsoever to play against nob bikers... just shake hands and give your opponent full battle points. The fact is that nob bikers do lose such as in the ard Boys finals at least two of them lost there.

A fundamental tactic for beating them is to take out one unit fast. The remaining unit is not nearly as hard to handle.

Instead of just pointing out flaws in what people suggest here I would love to hear what you would use in an eldar army to beat them. I'm sure it can be done.

G

I've said what I think can beat them, and Eldar due have a fair number of options. The problem is that its a limited set of options, and a "fluffy" player that won't take those options has close to zero chance. You can't simply take the normal random hodgepodge and expect it to work.

The Nob bikers also seem, as I've noted, to have a "sweet spot" much as Godzilla nids did. At 1500, the nob squads aren't large enough. They're still tough, but its much easier to attrit them because they have less models to spread wounds out with. At 2000+, opposing armies have enough guns/assault power that they can swamp them.

But at 1750, it takes a careful, well-built list to be able to counter them, AND deal with the other army builds that are out there.

whitedragon wrote:
Also, I believe Moz's army (Best General Baltimore GT 08) had 2 units of bikerz, snikrot and kommandos, and 2 units of grotz. The kommandos with snikrot were an extra money shot in your face when you thought that you might have avoided the bikerz.

I'd love to see that list. I'm guessing his nob squads were not as large, which as I said, ultimately reduces their effectiveness.

0ldsk00l wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
It has less total powerweapon swings than a lot of things...but then again, how many power weapons do you need?!

Against nob bikers - 44 S5 I5 PW attacks were barely enough.

That was a reference to the bikers overall. yes, that many may come up a tad short for THAT PERTICULAR list if I draw them in a tourney, but the rest of the time, it's almost overkill against most other things encountered in a tournament, which is why I dont run 2, or a unit with MORE powerweapons.

There's the rub. Counters for nob bikers are sometimes vast overkill against other units, and come with their own drawbacks. The vanguard+khan+chappy combo...against non-bikers, they'll kill one unit that's not nearly as valuable, then be out in the open and shot to hell.

0ldsk00l wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
As for how Eldar beat them, I run a mech-eldar army, and my general thought on this is to keep my serpents and falcons scooting 12" a turn, so that they are only hit on 6s, while keeping them under the fire of S8 guns (lances, pulselasers).

One turn of shooting, against a 3+ cover save, then your falcons/wave serpents are getting hit with 20 S9/S10 power klaws. Roughly three will hit, so that's 3 penetrating hits/turn.

Late-term objective grabbing is not the way to go in 5th edition, because of random game length. What happens if you zoom out on turn 5, and the game goes to 6 or 7?

Playing stand-off and shoot and trying to attrit them to death just isn't going to work well in 5th edition, because with only 5 guaranteed turns, you simply (in general) don't have enough time.

If they are assaulting, they are getting a 4+ coversave. also, like I said, I am willing to feed them a vehicle in order to damage them. even with only a handful of S8+ weapons, a 4+ save doesnt save them from at least 2 turns of shooting. It wont wipe them, but it will really hurt them. (2 turns because they are getting shot by me the turn after they assault my vehicle, and assuming they kill it, they have at least one more turn of movement before they can make an attempt on another vehicle). Rinse and repeat.

If you've got everything mounted, then you can try and play keep-away...but if you're shooting, they can assault you. If you're not shooting, then they just keep turbo-boosting so that you have a 3+ cover save to deal with. Either way, you still have to maintain your distance, so you're staying away from the objectives, and letting the ork bikers control the field. If its a KP mission, then the orks can easily put you in a position where your vehicles are trapped, and can't get away.

0ldsk00l wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:
I know its not perfect, and wont stand up to harsh Mathhammering, but in this case I intend to not play the numbers, rather I would play the other player. If he intends to run such a HUGE point unit, I'll do my best to make sure those points are wasted.

Sounds good in theory, but even if all the nob player is forcing you to do is to stay away from his bikers, in an objective mission, that can be well worthwhile.

plays both ways. if he in constantly trying to run down units that are worth a hell of a lot less than he is all game, he is wasting his time as well. in a KP mission, I can deny him my skimmers all game (18" move+assault vs 24" flat-out move), and he can't be everywhere at once, so whatever he has that is standing still remains vulnerable.

Again, sounds good in theory, but on a 6x4 table, not easy to accomplish. In a KP mission, you're doubly screwed, because a smart nob player will focus on trapping the wave serpents. Kill the wave serpents, then kill the guys inside, and you're down two KP. Your shooting will hurt, but probably not kill, so you're down 2-0. Kill three wave serpents and the guys inside, and even if you kill both nob bikers (which will probably take the entire game, if it happens at all) and you've still lost 6 KP to 4 KP.

Playing a defensive strategy against the nob bikers isn't going to win you the game. You have to be able to turn that defensive strategy into a reliable offensive one, and against Nob Bikers, that's tough to do, especially in a KP mission.

0ldsk00l wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

0ldsk00l wrote:and while he is doing this, I can go ahead and actaully play the mission.

You're not getting it...nob bikers EXCEL at playing the mission. Objectives? Great....since they're scoring units, the nobs effectively massive exclusion zones around the objectives where anything that enters, dies. Kill Points...well, the orks will have 5, maybe six. How many kill points are you fielding at 1750?

People are also talking about lootas in the backfield...Nob biker armies generally don't use lootas. They don't need to. The two nob biker units use up about 1500-1600 points by themselves, and the remaining points go into a squad of boyz or a squad of grots. With as many bodies as possible, you've got to dedicate more than just a single deep-striking squad to take them out...and if you do that, the nob bikers either come back and support, or they bend the rest of your army over the table.

at the end of the day, they have TWO units that are going to stand a chance at capping objectives. compare that to 5 or 6 for the mech eldar. Toss a falcon on the same objectives they are tryin to cap, and it's contested. Easy to draw, not hard to win a mission like that. I never said my was was perfect, but it's what I would do to beat them (since I am not going to roll up a new list just to beat ONE army, because I dont want to lose to EVERYONE else). You can toss all the maths at it you want, but its all theoretical until you put some models down on the table across from me. until then, I like my odds, because I dont think that anyone who would ever use this list puts much thought into how to apply it.

Yep, because people like Marc Parker (vegas GT winner who ran Nob bikers and ran into a dual-lash army played by last year's Circuit winner and lost at Baltimore), Neil Cauley (who won Baltimore and Chicago), and Moz are tactical morons. Sure, some people will play Nob Bikers because they think its an auto-win. But other players will play it because its strong, and know how to get the most of it. Anyone can beat the first category, but to have a chance against the second, you need to know how to counter it and have an army constructed to do so.

Razerous wrote:Its like the monolith issue. Dont go crazy and try an annhilate it - go for the necrons. My point is, do the damage where you need to but try not to wipe the whole squad/s just because it can easily wipe any of yours.

Slowly saturate with wounds, then assault. Bah, silly orks. Id like to know if the mindwar issue has been clarifyed - What LD does the models use, its own in the stat line or the modifyed score in reguards to everything else.

0ldsk00l wrote:Worse than a monolith; the bikers force you to pay attention to them unless you can tar-pit them, avoid them, or kill them.

Absolutely. And that's the problem. The only units that can reliably tar-pit them are units with massive numbers of good invulnerable saves, are fearless, or are both fearless and can put massive numbers of bodies from multiple units into the nob bikers. Even then, they're generally only good for a game turn, maybe two, because combat res is going to do a number on them.

Avoiding them sounds good in theory, but when you're essentially giving up the area threatened by nob bikers, your own shooting is greatly reduced, and you still have to get past that 4+/3+ cover save and a 4+ FNP save.

Which leads to the only real way of dealing with them: Kill them. You have to go offensive on them, as soon as is convenient to you, and you have to stack the deck in your favor in as many ways as possible. Which is what I said earlier - there are three things you need to do. As long as you can accomplish two of them, you've negated many of the nobs advantages defensively. If you can accomplish all three, you'll probably destroy the unit.

#1 - Massed S8+ hits. #2 - Ignoring/negating the cover save. #3 - Ignoring/negating the FNP save.

Reecius wrote:I see what you are saying Fifty, we sholdn't be looking for a one unit solution, but if you read back a lot of people propose multi squad solutions to nob bikers.

The problem is that you don't have time to pull out a bunch of shenanigans, they charge you (very possibly multi-charge you) turn two. You have to have a hammer to smash them with quickly or die.

I'm glad someone got what I was saying

I take your point too. Moving on from the last thing I was saying then...

I suppose the only response to yours is that you either have to smash them early or delay their arrival.

Smashing is very difficult, as shown above. I doubt delaying them is much easier. Is there any feasible way of delaying them without playing into their hands? How easy or hard would it be to pin them? I am guessing extremely difficult?

Plasma launchers will find it hard to damage, so will long rifles, shrieker cannon MIGHT do it, Spinneret rifle yes, but it is only assault 1, sunrifle - strength is too low. Scrub that plan - you'll never force enough pinning leadership tests to make it likely one will be failed. Damnit.

Do you get cover saves from blast markers?

I knew you would mention 1750 being their sweet spot to address their losses in the Ard Boys finals. The thing is when nob bikers appeared in the tournament scene most players were not prepared for them. Now people do realize their threat and are working on ways to defeat them. I am sure they probably win some more events but it won't be as easy. Eldar is a tough army to beat them but there are other races that can go to toe to toe with them. You have to win the majority of your games by a massacre to win a GT so if the nob bikers win some games by a lesser margin or even draw/lose (* shudders to even contemplate *) that will knock them out of the top spot.

It will be very interesting to see how many nob biker armies are at Adepticon this year. I reckon there will be quite a few.

G

If lots of people play Nob Bikers then they may get draws against each other and knock each other off of the top-spots.

Of course, that is not much comfort to anyone they do beat!

Green Blow Fly wrote:I knew you would mention 1750 being their sweet spot to address their losses in the Ard Boys finals. The thing is when nob bikers appeared in the tournament scene most players were not prepared for them. Now people do realize their threat and are working on ways to defeat them.
G

He mentioned that because it is very true, I was going to mention that myself. Bill is just being logical while others are wishing and dreaming, maybe that is why he seems so negative to you. The simple fact is it is much much more difficult to beat than most think. I personally hate the list because it invalidates the competitiveness of every interesting army I make. Luckily I have a decent chance with my Eldar list if I replace the Autarch with a Farseer with Guide and Doom(or maybe Mind War), if it doesn't pan out though I'll just have to play Lash. A list with multiple Raiders may be effective. Other than that I can't see much of anything else that is going to win anywhere close to 50% of the time.

Centurian99 wrote:Which leads to the only real way of dealing with them: Kill them. You have to go offensive on them, as soon as is convenient to you, and you have to stack the deck in your favor in as many ways as possible. Which is what I said earlier - there are three things you need to do. As long as you can accomplish two of them, you've negated many of the nobs advantages defensively. If you can accomplish all three, you'll probably destroy the unit.

Except that, as the last 7 pages are saying, there is no way to effectively kill them WITHOUT making a broken list that will lose to everything else.

You keep saying that vehicles will be trapped. please elaborate on how this happens.

Additionally, I wasn't advocating dismounting to shoot at the bikes. It is still possible to have a rather large number of S8+ shots in a mech-eldar list on vehicles alone. Again, when they move to assault (getting on average 3 hits, which still leaves a decent chance for survival if that vehicle has holo-fields) their save reverts to 4+, and they lose that pesky FnP. If they assault the stranded unit on foot, it will most likely also die in one round, also leaving the bikers with a 4+ without FnP. 2-3 pulse lasers, and 2-3 TL bright lances will make a dent. far more than anything else proposed so far, and it makes the bikers work for their kills, and leaves them stranded in your turn.

Again, it's not the Ubar-killy nobbiker list of stupidbrokendoom that everyone is saying is a MUST to fight them, but it works against all lists well, and still has the grapes to take on nobs with a decent chance of success.

I think this is a strong all comers list vs nob bikers. I can't tell you what you will always lose to with it though. You can switch out eldrad for something else if you'd like. Force the bikers to charge the DA, when they get wiped in 1 round, they will have to consolidate, giving the fire dragons a chance to blow them up. The Wraithlords can take care of the other unit.

Eldrad 210

10 Fire Dragons, Exarch 172
Wave Serpent, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 140
10 Fire Dragons, Exarch 172
Wave Serpent, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 140

5 Pathfinders 120
5 Pathfinders 120
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm 152
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm 152

Wraithlord, BL, Wraithblade 140
Wraithlord, BL, Wraithblade 140
Wraithlord, BL, Wraithblade 140

1798

The sweet spot for nob bikers does not come across as negative but funny as always saying why they are so great. Sure they are great but at least we can look ahead and say they will probably not win the gladiator in 09. My point if people trying to beat this list just give up and decide it's not possible that is making it even easier for this broken list. People just have to keep working at it and they will find ways to beat the list and keep them from massacring each game. They do have their weaknesses and that is a lot better than having to have dealt with broken holo falcons. Personally I think Space Marines in general is the best way to hit them with the beat stick, be it assault terminators, VAS, iron class or vindicators. Probably Chaos as well... especially lash spam.

G