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I agree with what most of you all have said on the kill point system. It is just flat out inherently flawed. As HBMC said, how do you justify a maxed out nob biker squad counting for as much as a 5 man imperial gaurd remnants squad?

I just do not understand what the rationale was. If two armies fight and one can give up 24 kill points against an army that gives up a total of 6, and the army with many kill points is composed of units that are easy to kill and the army with few has units that are very hard to kill, there is absolutely no logic what-so-ever that I am capable of comprehending that says this system is better than VP's, or even fair.

I just fail to see how in playtesting they could look at a game where an IG gamer wiped out all but a single model of a Chaos player's army, and lost only half of their own army but gave up more kill points and thus lost the game, as an improvement to the system.

Also, what is the buisness sense in it? It discourages mechanized armies. A 35 point Rhino or Drop Pod costs $35 bucks. But I for one am discouraged in taking many of them as they double the KP's of each unit.

It is just a truly bad system that seems as if there either was not much thought put into it or, hopefully, there are codex changes coming that have been planned into the system and help to balance it.

Well, as this is about 40k ,fantasy has little relevance here on a topic about 5th ed guard. Second I said I was talking about the tactics IN GAME and not from the list perspective. What you said has little to do with what I was talking about. I was being generic about what certain point level units could do IN GAME. Think if it as more reacting to you opponent then when you build your list. I do not disagree with the meta game statement. However I do think there is more to it than that.

In game is just as important in VP and KP denial then in the list building stage. Our statements do not contradict each other other than quite a few people do use those uber units in normal games and not because of kill points. A unit that is very hard to kill can be effective in most any game type. Holding objectives, forcing opponent to redeploy, taking out opponents uber units and so on. Nob bikers and TH termies are not popular because they offer few kill points. They kill most everything and are great in pretty much all game types if you play them right. They have a tactic or a benefit from all game types.

Your last paragraph is basically the same as mine. Some do better by codex then others. That was my point of my last statement. Seems to me we agree on pretty much everything just get their by different paths.

Just saying...

What if the 6E mission table was like this:
1 - winner scores the most KPs
2-5 Objectives!
6 - winner has most KPs on the board

I think the KP issue would resolve itself entirely with that small change to the mission table.

Except that people seem to forget that KP's are there to balance out the advantage of having 24 units in an Objective game. In 2/3 of the time, the 24 unit army is going to have an advantage over the 6 unit army in that they can simply contest/claim more objectives.

GW is expecting you to take both into account when you are creating an army. The real problem is that IG have no real way to balance this. They simply can't choose to take a small number of units unless using specific doctrines (and even then you will likely still have more). I fully expect this disadvantage to go away when the new IG codex comes out in May.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I wonder if Guard will be allowed to score KPs off their own units...

That is, if the Guard are down 3 KPs on turn 5, they kill 5 of their own, scoring 5 KPs. Bang, they're up by 2 KPs going in for the win.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I wonder if Guard will be allowed to score KPs off their own units...

That is, if the Guard are down 3 KPs on turn 5, they kill 5 of their own, scoring 5 KPs. Bang, they're up by 2 KPs going in for the win.

Hey! So they will find a way to make Commissars more useful!

Would it not be easier to just count a platoon as 1 kill point? that way you can only have the same max kill points as any other army. I force org slot = 1 kill point

Two reasons:

1) It would be too easy to deny KP's at that point. Put one platoon unit on one side of the board and the other on the other side.

2) 1 FO =/= 1 KP in other codices. For example: IC and retinue (1 KP each), Combat Squads (1 KP each), Squad and transport (1 KP each), Tau Vehicles (KP's for vehicle and for Drones), Death Cultists (1 KP per cultist but only one FO choice), etc.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Except that people seem to forget that KP's are there to balance out the advantage of having 24 units in an Objective game. In 2/3 of the time, the 24 unit army is going to have an advantage over the 6 unit army in that they can simply contest/claim more objectives.

GW is expecting you to take both into account when you are creating an army. The real problem is that IG have no real way to balance this. They simply can't choose to take a small number of units unless using specific doctrines (and even then you will likely still have more). I fully expect this disadvantage to go away when the new IG codex comes out in May.

Ozy wins another thread...

1) IG aren't exactly difficult to kill. A determined stare will take down most models. Even if you attempt to "hide" squads you aren't sure to keep the killpoint safe, as even the lightest fast unit will be capable of killing them.. It gets even harder if you're trying to hide 2, 3 or more units

2) Yeah, this is a good point.

I don't know about you but I'd quickly forget which units are in which platoon. Especially playing against a Gray Horde or even painted units with no Platoon markings.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I just can't wait to see the book. I still need to put unit markings on my IG that I have been building, and I am not doing it now when I have no idea how they are going to arrange squads here in a few months.

Now that the Lizardmen stuff is coming out, does that mean we'll soon start to see IG previews?

Scottywan82 wrote:Now that the Lizardmen stuff is coming out, does that mean we'll soon start to see IG previews?

Assuming IG are the next Codex/army book, then yes. Remember Lord of the Rings Apocalypse (ahem, War of the Ring) comes next though. Personally not seen any new releases for that yet.

I suspect there'll be some kind of IG hint on the back page of the next WD.

And the new Stompa and Superheavy tank are out next. So that covers the next 40k slot for articles in White Dwarf as well as what they are selling.

Damn. I want my IG previews already!!

Dexy wrote:... not like IG will ever use all 6 Troop slots in a FOC.

I'm trying to build a IG force, and if we lose the armored fist unit then you maybe right we'll never come close to 6 troop choices in a 2000 pt game. I can only picture 3 at most since regular platoons will be able to buy chimeras.

on the other hand

i have noticed a recent trend, GW has been trying to intice gamers to choose 4 or more troop choices by giving troop choice units the best rules upgrades.

I'll be more than happy to have Apoc previews. Shadowsword is Imperial Armor, after all.

Terribly sorry...but I've read through the thread and might have missed if this information was posted....

Are there plans/Green Sculpts of new plastic Regular troops? I expect Storm Troopers to go plastic and what not...but will we have a new regiment go plastic? We currently have Cadians and Commando(catachans)....

I am asking because I am thinking about starting IG but if there will be a new plastic Troop choice I might just wait to pick up my troops. Thanks

There are a lot of people wishing for plastic greatcoat Guard (~Valhallan / Krieg / Armageddon), but there's no proof of this.

As far as I know, only plastic Storms have been confirmed, along with plastic Cadian / Catachan Command.

For Infantry Platoons, I think I'd like to see an update in their Deployment and Kill Points rules.

In particular, I'd like this rule:

Platoon Deployment:

All Squads within an Infantry Platoon count as a single deployment and must be deployed at the same time. To use Reserves, the entire Infantry Platoon must be placed in Reserves and they must enter play from Reserves at the same time.

When an Infantry Platoon is deployed or enters the board, place the Command Squad first. Each Infantry Squad from that Infantry Platoon must deploy or enter play with a least one of its models within 12" of the Command Squad.

Infantry Squads do not count for Kill Points and do not count as Scoring Units.

In short form: The Command Squad of the infantry Platoon is what counts for Scoring and Kill Points. Your Infantry Platoon needs to make advancing and protecting the Command Squad a priority if it wants establish Command and Control over Objectives.

- Marty Lund

And as mentioned before, the command squad would be easily picked off.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There are a lot of people wishing for plastic greatcoat Guard (~Valhallan / Krieg / Armageddon), but there's no proof of this.

As far as I know, only plastic Storms have been confirmed, along with plastic Cadian / Catachan Command.

That's what I was figuring but thought I'd double check if I missed something somewhere....

Sigh...start picking up Troops now or hope that they do get some new plastics?.......gah

Thanks again

If you're playing Guard, and know what you like, then go ahead and start getting stuff. It's not like you'll likely have the whole army completed by May...

ive heard rumors of
- better lasguns (ap or range possibly even strength)
- going to ground while still being able to shoot regularly
(based on training for war and common sense fluff wise)
- also a point reduction of the standard gaurdsmen
(to compinsate for the 6pt ork that taps that bootentay on a lame gaurdsman)
***
Just what ive heard in well trusted circles higher up
but not confirmed
~tony~

BrookM wrote:And as mentioned before, the command squad would be easily picked off.

A fair point. As Command Squads are designed in the current IG Codex they are easy marks. If the Command Squad were a proper 10-man squad, I think it would be a whole lot hard to pick them off, especially with 4+ cover saves all around for shooting over/through intervening Infantry Squads. Also, I think you should probably be able to give the Command Squad the option to take a Chimera IFV even if the regular Infantry Squads are foot-slogging it.

At that point you're just worrying about Whirlwinds and their ilk, as well as having your Infantry Squad lines broken through. If somebody breaks through the Infantry Line and kills the Command Squad, though, aren't they performing the action that is supposed to wreck a Platoon?

If Guard Infantry and Chimeras get the cost-reduction people are anticipating I think the scheme would play out pretty well.

- Marty Lund

Let CHQ take bikes, give them two wounds and so much wargear they can each have something different! Give them special rules too relating to combat. Guard H2H issue and easy Kp via CHQ solved! Why has no-one thought of this?

Dexy wrote:Let CHQ take bikes, give them two wounds and so much wargear they can each have something different! Give them special rules too relating to combat. Guard H2H issue and easy Kp via CHQ solved! Why has no-one thought of this?

I like it!!! And Toughness 4/5 on bikes....and and...feel no pain....+ I don't know.....Combi Flamers for all of em!!!


PERFECT!!

Seriously though I would really like to see something along the lines of what mlund suggested. It makes sense fluff wise and would make it so guard no longer rock 20+ kill points every game

why does everyone act like the nob bikers are really that unkillable?!?!
are they good? yes
are they really really expensive points? omg yes
are they unstopable? no no no no no
they are a force to be reckoned with but they do die and they can be stopped and when they are the whole plan/win potential for the army using/losing them goes right out the window
shoot them.....especially with big stuff and they die
take away their save in assault w/ initiative and they die(both plans fairly easy to do)
just like anything else thats good, you must play against them accourdingly if you wish to win/beat that unit
do you fight a tank with lasguns? or do you shoot it with heavy weapons and make it blow up?
cmon guys.....they do die
p.s.
im an ork player and i just told you how we die.... fail lol

mlund wrote:All Squads within an Infantry Platoon count as a single deployment and must be deployed at the same time. To use Reserves, the entire Infantry Platoon must be placed in Reserves and they must enter play from Reserves at the same time.

When an Infantry Platoon is deployed or enters the board, place the Command Squad first. Each Infantry Squad from that Infantry Platoon must deploy or enter play with a least one of its models within 12" of the Command Squad.

Infantry Squads do not count for Kill Points and do not count as Scoring Units.

In short form: The Command Squad of the infantry Platoon is what counts for Scoring and Kill Points. Your Infantry Platoon needs to make advancing and protecting the Command Squad a priority if it wants establish Command and Control over Objectives.

We chatted about things like this back a few pages. The problem is that you can't defend or protect 5 T3 models with a 5+ save.