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Nor do I..

Spartacusbob wrote:isnt the winged guy on the left corner the new one? boned if i'm wrong. thought it was new

:3

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1110281&rootCatGameStyle=

Hiding the new daemon prince within the Be'lakor model, how cunning

bahhhhhh foiled by not playing fantasy.. well at least in 40k hes new to me

LunaHound wrote:I dont see any new demon...

they all look plastic.

Plastic Lord of Change = WIN WIN WIN

I think that's be'lakor repainted.

Munch Munch! wrote:

Leggy wrote:

Munch Munch! wrote:[
I also hope the make the plague bearers better. They look stupid.

Don't get your hopes up. Plaguebearers have had the most consistent model style out of all the daemons. I don't forsee them changing too much.

Well, I hope they atleast change the poses. A few of 'em look like they're supposed to be yawning and going to bed. This one looks timid and depressed.

You'd be depressed too if you spent your entire existence counting Nurgle's plagues upon the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Munch Munch! wrote:The old blood letters were nice. The new blood letters are better in some ways, because their poses suggest a more vicious and aggressivve nature, making them look like they're ready to take more heads. The weapons are also better. (didn't the older ones have pikes or something?)

Axes. they had Axes, which is MUCH more a weapon of Khorne then a sword is...

Agreed, axes are a much more Khorney weapon. I hated the fact that the new berzerkers got swords instead of chainaxes.

augustus5 wrote:Agreed, axes are a much more Khorney weapon. I hated the fact that the new berzerkers got swords instead of chainaxes.

Wait, there are NEW Khorne Berzerkers?

It's not merely a repack with a 3rd sprue to make 12 models?

I'm thinking he meant the Bloodletters.

In which case, it's not really true because Bloodletters have always been just described as having "great blades perpetually covered in blood".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Daemons in 40k are not selling well and new miniatures will not change this.
They need a playable codex.

They needed to not be separated out from Chaos Marines.

I think the approach GW took was poorly executed. There are ways GW could have pulled Daemons out and it would have been ok. They just didn't do that. For example, if the schmorgesborg of daemons within the C:CSM book had been kept to just the basic "troop" daemons and furies to allow room for more new units, I think most people would have been fine with that. In a similar vein the Chaos Daemons codex could have been so much more, by maybe incorporating elements of lost and the damned or cults. The fact that both C:CSM and C:CD combined are the size of Codex Space Marines shows how much of the short end of the stick Chaos got. It was hypocrisy on GW's part to split chaos the way they did to simplify that book while they inflated C:SM. Chaos ended up with two lists that are both incomplete.

I believe the Realms of Chaos book just said blades coated in blood. The 2nd edition 'letters had swords and look similar to the current ones (hated the axe dudes and the 3rd edition metals only because they were tippy and dumb looking).

There are daemons in the current CSM codex. Not my problem that people want a CSM codex where the daemons, who are weak enough to be summoned by mortals, are actually in every way better than the marines summoning them.

Again, only IW's players didn't stock up on daemons (only because they spammed oblits, defilers and bassies instead). Everyone else did though as Bloodletters and 'Nettes were better than Zerkers at assaulting with NO discernible drawback.

If you really want the current codex daemons with CSM's than build a list using 2 different force org. charts and both codeciies.

All GW had to do was give the generic lesser daemons the ability to take a mark that has the same effect as the appropriate icon.

The real reason taking them out was stupid is all those daemon miniatures that didn't get purchased because they weren't allowed in the codex. Lost sales for GW. Idiots.

frozenwastes wrote:The real reason taking them out was stupid is all those daemon miniatures that didn't get purchased because they weren't allowed in the codex. Lost sales for GW. Idiots.

Given how well WFB DoC sold and move Daemon models, GW lost absolutely nothing by nerfing the CSM Generic Lesser Daemons. Indeed, from a pure financial numbers standpoint, I'll be GW is very proud of how well Daemons sold post-split.

frozenwastes wrote:All GW had to do was give the generic lesser daemons the ability to take a mark that has the same effect as the appropriate icon.

If GW started Generic Lesser Daemons with a GEQ / WFB baseline, that'd work:

Generic Lesser Daemon WS4 BS- S3 T3 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv5++I Fearless

MoK = S4 & Furious
MoS = I5 & Fleet
MoN = T5 & FNP
MoT = Sv3++I & BS4 ranged attack

Base points could be in the 5-8 pts each. With Marks, they could bump into 7-10 pts range.

From a design / Fluff POV, Marked Summoned Daemons become clearly inferior to their "pure" version, keeping the focus on the CSM for the heavy lifting, while also making them cheap enough to be completely disposable. Tactically, it opens the option for CSM to spam GLDs as fodder and bait to protect the far more-valuable Chaos Marines, Obliterators, etc.

According to p.26, "Slaves to Darkness", Bloodletters carry a Hellblade. They also have a point of armour on all locations, have a bite, claw, and weapon attack, can spit poison, and regenerate like a troll.

Hellblades themselves have a bonus to hit, cause extra wounds, and drains magic/daemonic power from followers of Slaanesh.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given how well WFB DoC sold and move Daemon models, GW lost absolutely nothing by nerfing the CSM Generic Lesser Daemons. Indeed, from a pure financial numbers standpoint, I'll be GW is very proud of how well Daemons sold post-split.

In fantasy yes, but they definitely lost 40k sales of daemons with the split. Unfortunately they're in the same box/SKU so GW has no way of tracking if someone is buying them for WFB or for 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm thinking he meant the Bloodletters.

In which case, it's not really true because Bloodletters have always been just described as having "great blades perpetually covered in blood".

No, I meant the old style berzerkers with the chain axes.

edit: I can't seem to figure out how to post a picture here so here is a link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/45191-Beserkers%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Khorne%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.html

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm thinking he meant the Bloodletters.

In which case, it's not really true because Bloodletters have always been just described as having "great blades perpetually covered in blood".

No, I meant the old style berzerkers with the chain axes.

edit: I can't seem to figure out how to post a picture here so here is a link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/45191-Beserkers%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Khorne%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.html

Honestly, I have no clue what you're trying to say.

Those are the current Berzerkers. Look on the GW webshop, that's exactly what they're selling.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020024&prodId=prod1095443
See? Chainaxes and chainswords.

frozenwastes wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given how well WFB DoC sold and move Daemon models, GW lost absolutely nothing by nerfing the CSM Generic Lesser Daemons. Indeed, from a pure financial numbers standpoint, I'll be GW is very proud of how well Daemons sold post-split.

In fantasy yes, but they definitely lost 40k sales of daemons with the split. Unfortunately they're in the same box/SKU so GW has no way of tracking if someone is buying them for WFB or for 40k.

Wait. You know that they lost sales of daemons for 40k and yet GW doesn't know because there is no way to track them to see if they are being bought for 40k or Fantasy? Or you just pulling that statement out of your ass because 12 people on Dakka shelved their CSM army due to daemons no longer being the spammed OP'd units they once were?

Wow, if you can somehow know what GW doesn't know without having data to back up your claim (as you just admitted there is no way to track purchases based on 40k/Fantasy) then I want the numbers for Wednesdays Powerball jackpot. It's up over $100M right now.

frozenwastes wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given how well WFB DoC sold and move Daemon models, GW lost absolutely nothing by nerfing the CSM Generic Lesser Daemons. Indeed, from a pure financial numbers standpoint, I'll be GW is very proud of how well Daemons sold post-split.

In fantasy yes, but they definitely lost 40k sales of daemons with the split. Unfortunately they're in the same box/SKU so GW has no way of tracking if someone is buying them for WFB or for 40k.

That's *extremely* debatable. At the time of the changeover, there were several forces which can take Daemons:
1. WFB Daemons of Chaos (split off Mortals)
2. 40k Daemons (split off CSM)
3. 40k CSM

WFB DoC sold like gangbusters, and 40k C: Daemons seems to have done adequately well. If C: Daemons sold any moderate number of books, then any "lost" sales to CSM players (who probably already owned enough Daemon models to not need to buy more) would have been easily offset by new C: Daemons and expanding / new DoC players.

Indeed, it is entirely likely that GW foresaw that the "CSM" Daemons players would have cried over losing their better-than-CSM Daemons in the process, and that GW actively desired this outcome by forcing Daemon-based 40k players to switch to C: Daemons (needing new HQs & Heavies), while simultaneously forcing CSM-based 40k players to buy more Rhinos to "mech up" with the newly-available points freed up by nerfing CSM Summoned Daemons.

Now, whether you'll ever get GW to admit this in public is highly unlikely, but from an outcomes standpoint, GW "won" with more sales overall, so kicking the "CSM" Daemon players to the curb was the right thing to do from a bottom-line perspective. And that's how GW measures.
____

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm thinking he meant the Bloodletters.

No, I meant the old style berzerkers with the chain axes.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/45191-Beserkers%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Khorne%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.html

Those are the current / 3E plastic Berzerkers with more Chainaxes. The owner probably did a lot of bitz trading / swapping / shuffling for them back when Chainaxes counted as "Heavy" CCWs that limited saves to a 4+.


I typo too fast...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given how well WFB DoC sold and move Daemon models, GW lost absolutely nothing by nerfing the CSM Generic Lesser Daemons. Indeed, from a pure financial numbers standpoint, I'll be GW is very proud of how well Daemons sold post-split.

In fantasy yes, but they definitely lost 40k sales of daemons with the split. Unfortunately they're in the same box/SKU so GW has no way of tracking if someone is buying them for WFB or for 40k.

That's *extremely* debatable. At the time of the changeover, there were several forces which can take Daemons:
1. WFB Daemons of Chaos (split off Mortals)
2. 40k Daemons (split off CSM)
3. 40k CSM

WFB DoC sold like gangbusters, and 40k C: Daemons seems to have done adequately well. If C: Daemons sold any moderate number of books, then any "lost" sales to CSM players (who probably already owned enough Daemon models to not need to buy more) would have been easily offset by new C: Daemons and expanding / new DoC players.

Indeed, it is entirely likely that GW foresaw that the "CSM" Daemons players would have cried over losing their better-than-CSM Daemons in the process, and that GW actively desired this outcome by forcing Daemon-based 40k players to switch to C: Daemons (needing new HQs & Heavies), while simultaneously forcing CSM-based 40k players to buy more Rhinos to "mech up" with the newly-available points freed up by nerfing CSM Summoned Daemons.

Now, whether you'll ever get GW to admit this in public is highly unlikely, but from an outcomes standpoint, GW "won" with more sales overall, so kicking the "CSM" Daemon players to the curb was the right thing to do from a bottom-line perspective. And that's how GW measures.
____

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm thinking he meant the Bloodletters.

No, I meant the old style berzerkers with the chain axes.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/45191-Beserkers%2C%20Chaos%2C%20Khorne%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.html

Those are the current / 3E plastic Berzerkers with more Chainaxes. The owner probably did a lot of bitz trading / swapping / shuffling for them back when Chainaxes counted as "Heavy" CCWs that limited saves to a 3+.

Chainaxe limited save to 4+. Basically it worked against everything NOT in scout armor or worst. Stupidest rule ever.

Well, count me in as pleased that the Daemons are getting some love. I've had my eye on starting a themed Tzeentch/Slaanesh 40K Daemons army for a while now, and this news was just the jolt I needed into doing it. It'll be just the break I need as I finish painting my 1500 pts. of Tau, and keep staring at my Sisters on the shelf, patiently waiting for a new codex.

Fateweaver wrote:Wait. You know that they lost sales of daemons for 40k and yet GW doesn't know because there is no way to track them to see if they are being bought for 40k or Fantasy? Or you just pulling that statement out of your ass because 12 people on Dakka shelved their CSM army due to daemons no longer being the spammed OP'd units they once were?

Umm, the second statement was a qualification of the first. Even if a single gamer didn't buy a box of bloodletters because bloodletters aren't in C:CSM, then they definitely lost sales. I made no mention of what amount of sales they lost but I know for a fact it was greater than 0. Even if it was the 12 DakkaDakka people you mentioned. The same reaction was present in my gaming group in two cities. It is a reasonable assumption that people didn't buy a unit that isn't part of their army, isn't it? Just like how Space Wolf players are not going to buy the new Leman Russ kit now that it's removed from their army list. Even if 1 guy was going to, it's lost sales.

To what degree is impossible to know. And even if we had the best possible data (GW's private data), we still couldn't know because it's one SKU for both WFB and 40k.

So yes, I know they lost sales for 40k for daemons from those players who don't buy them because they can't use Codex: Daemons entries with Codex: Chaos Space Marines. How much of that was made up for by WFB sales or players buying them to use as Lesser Daemons is impossible to know.

GW is having enough trouble selling their miniatures without their own rules standing in the way. They should take every opportunity they can to upsell and cross sell people rather than building in barriers to their own sales.

But this is all academic for me at this point. Like a great many others, I've left GW's bad rules and bad policies behind. With overall revenue equaling units sold x average price, we know that more and more people are doing the same. WFB 8 probably won't revitalize things given that it seems to be geared to even larger games/point sizes and higher total army cost. And then add in the June 2010 price increases that are knocking on the door. The only way you can have the same revenue (or less) when you raise prices is if you sell less individual units. Which is the what the numbers in GW's financials over the last 5 years indicate. Hopefully for GW, the new WFB starter will sell like mad because I'm not sure too many people are going to go on to build 3000 point armies. Space Marines alone already outsell all of WFB combined, so I'm really not sure if WFB 8 can offer the kind of revenue GW needs to turn it's mediocre revenue around.

DE will make them money. As many as are leaving there are more coming in.

See, I'm actually tempted into Fantasy because of "rumored" rules changes (funny how people can judge every rule in Fantasy based on rumors of 2 dozen rules).

We'll just agree to disagree. GW will bet getting money from me when DE and the new plastic daemons are released.

I hope that the next Codex: CSM loses the current generic Daemons too. CSM don't need them and all Daemons belong to their own books now. The 40K Chaos Daemons just need to be a bit more powerful to become as popular as the Fantasy Daemons. Removing the stupid deployment by deep strike rule and just having the whole army deploy like normal units and giving some units scout and deep strike special rules would make the army a lot more likable to atleast me.

What the CSM need are mutants, possibly traitorous Imperial Guard or other types of human allies or slaves, Savage Morticians and their dark designs, many different types of Daemon Engines both of the close combat and ordnance types, etc. The Defiler should be just the very beginning. If the Codex design would follow along those lines the new book would have the potential to become the best one ever made. Daemons are in no way intergral to a CSM army background wise, and I for one think that splitting them from the Marines was a good thing in the long run.

Maybe with the plastics coming out gw might be thinking of introducing a battleforce and battalion which are both needed and i for one would buy if done right.

Daemon Dave wrote:Maybe with the plastics coming out gw might be thinking of introducing a battleforce and battalion which are both needed and i for one would buy if done right.

I think they're dropping these box sets altogether. NO Blood Angel one you'll note, or even a mention of one.

reds8n wrote:

Daemon Dave wrote:Maybe with the plastics coming out gw might be thinking of introducing a battleforce and battalion which are both needed and i for one would buy if done right.

I think they're dropping these box sets altogether. NO Blood Angel one you'll note, or even a mention of one.

They represented a saving for the customer, that was unacceptable.

True but ba didn't need one. I think as they released sprues that can upgrade other kits they didn't really need to. Plus that would mean there are 3 marine battleforces out there. Beastmen got one as did tyranids so im guessing they are still about.

Tyranids just got one with old miniatures and without the Carnifex: Because it was a too good deal and because the Carnifex was nerfed.

Therion wrote:What the CSM need are mutants, possibly traitorous Imperial Guard or other types of human allies or slaves, Savage Morticians and their dark designs, many different types of Daemon Engines both of the close combat and ordnance types, etc. The Defiler should be just the very beginning. If the Codex design would follow along those lines the new book would have the potential to become the best one ever made. Daemons are in no way intergral to a CSM army background wise, and I for one think that splitting them from the Marines was a good thing in the long run.

My old diatribe on this is that if GW wants to axe LatD, fine. But then at least split them and give them to the CSMs and Daemons. Give Traitors to CSMs, then give mutants (Daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with them) and more daemon engines to Daemons. The end result is two more flexible -- and I think more characterful -- armies.

But the details really aren't that relevant. The point is that there's just an enormous disparity between what Chaos is in 40K and what it could be. GW can create all the plastic manufacturing efficiencies, etc. that it wants -- but if the product isn't that compelling, it's not going to matter because it won't sell like it should.