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MeanGreenStompa wrote:They represented a saving for the customer, that was unacceptable.

My understanding is that GW pulls some boxed sets to juggle shelf space in their own stores. What they fail to factor in is the large size of some Local Gaming Stores, where shelf space is not an issue. I think the battalions and battleforces are a good idea, but in addition to denying the modest saving to us, GW might be trying to make room for other stuff like Apocalypse kits, etc.


Anyway, if we get plastic Bloodcrushers and Horrors, that's it, I'm making a Fatecrusher army...

Is Chaos really underserved in 40k? It's missing the Chaos GEQs to go with Chaos MEQs and Daemons proper. That's really not so bad, and one hopes that GW will revisit this as a parallel 40k release when the next WFB Chaos Mortals book comes out.

Quite possibly, the real hangup is that GW hasn't thought of a good "Codex: Chaos ___" short label that properly captures the essence of what they are. Not necessarily Traitor Guard, not necessarily Daemonworlds, and not necessarily Mutants. A lot of stuff fits under that umbrella.

In the mean time, aren't we excited to be getting GK & DE?

Or do we want GW to push DE even farther back so that LatD can get a proper, legal Codex?

I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

The other problem is that people want Chaos Marines to somehow, inexplicably, have access to Guard Armour, Daemons, and masses of Guard Infantry--all in the same book.

Completely unnecessary.

reds8n wrote:I think they're dropping these box sets altogether. NO Blood Angel one you'll note, or even a mention of one.

Or, more likely they just want you to buy the regular Space Marine battleforce instead.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

The other problem is that people want Chaos Marines to somehow, inexplicably, have access to Guard Armour, Daemons, and masses of Guard Infantry--all in the same book.

Completely unnecessary.

/agree and i play chaos. I actually dont mind the current chaos books. They are a bit underpowered and over-simplified but i think books have a strong core. More detail just needs to be added, more individuality. Marked lesser daemons would be nice and marked greater daemons. Keep majority of daemons separate. Guard are just silly, if they want cultists and chaos guard give them their own book.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

The other problem is that people want Chaos Marines to somehow, inexplicably, have access to Guard Armour, Daemons, and masses of Guard Infantry--all in the same book.

Completely unnecessary.

That may be, but back when Eye of Terror came out, the local shop had about 12 people start one of those armies. They were chaos players that bought a bunch of guardsmen and tanks who otherwise would never have. Nowadays, there's not even a regular GW playing group at that store. It's all Warmachine, Flames of War, D&D and boardgames.

As far as balance goes-- that's what points are for. If it's too strong to combine those different elements, increase their points value or make them have to spend points on a piece of wargear or army option in order to include them.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

The other problem is that people want Chaos Marines to somehow, inexplicably, have access to Guard Armour, Daemons, and masses of Guard Infantry--all in the same book.

Completely unnecessary.

Actually, LatD were harder to abuse than the existing CSM book. Yeah, you could daemonbomb with LatD, but CSM daemonbombs were much better (daemons were Elites with LatD). Sure, you could field Russes and Basilisks alongside CSMs, but that meant fielding more crappy Traitor units in Troops and not mutants or CSMs. IMO it was one of GW's more underrated efforts -- lots of diversity but surprising balance. That's why I picked up the flag for them back when.

In Gorgon's ideal world, you'd have a Chaos codex with smaller numbers of elite CSMs leading traitors and various gribblies, a Legions book giving proper attention to the cult legions affiliated with the big 4, and a daemonworld codex with daemons and mutants. However, I'm veering off-topic here.

Back kinda more on topic, the generic daemon entry always smelled to me like something the studio added after strongly considering removing ALL daemon entries from the CSM codex. It might feel like an afterthought because it was.

gorgon wrote:Back kinda more on topic, the generic daemon entry always smelled to me like something the studio added after strongly considering removing ALL daemon entries from the CSM codex. It might feel like an afterthought because it was.

Something like that. I'm sure GW toyed with Markable Daemons, along with heavily-nerfed WFB-based Daemons, during playtest and ultimately decided to split the difference by pulling Marks and only having generics to drive the message home that the "real" Daemons are in C: Daemons. If you look at Markable WFB Daemons starting with a GEQ statline, Scoring MEQ-like Assault-on-Arrival GLDs really aren't so bad from a balance perspective.

gorgon wrote:In Gorgon's ideal world, you'd have a Chaos codex with smaller numbers of elite CSMs leading traitors and various gribblies, a Legions book giving proper attention to the cult legions affiliated with the big 4, and a daemonworld codex with daemons and mutants.

Not a bad approach, but I'd move the LatD CSM to HQ only - if there's even a single CSM amongst humans, he'll be leading the entire thing.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

Any more than any other Codex?

Sorry, but I'm tired of the counter-point to "Why doesn't Codex X exist any more" being "Because people could abuse it!". It's like Fate's infantile assertion that Iron Warrior players "only" ever took min/maxed Oblit/Defiler/Basilisk armies (I played Iron Warriors and regulary took 6 troops choices and only ever took a Basilisk in 1 game... and I own 3 Oblits, not 9) or that people took Daemons "only" because they had no drawbacks over regular troops (really? No drawbacks? At all? Really???) - in other words, these choices were "only" taken because of the power, and now we're free of that thanks to the holy sanctity of the new list (or no list, for all us LatD players out there). It also assumes that now we've moved on from the old Codex that that old abuse is gone. Well... that's partially true - the old abuse is gone... only to be replaced by all new abuses.

The grass isn't greener - it's just packaged differently and costs more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Something like that. I'm sure GW toyed with Markable Daemons, along with heavily-nerfed WFB-based Daemons, during playtest and ultimately decided to split the difference by pulling Marks and only having generics to drive the message home that the "real" Daemons are in C: Daemons. If you look at Markable WFB Daemons starting with a GEQ statline, Scoring MEQ-like Assault-on-Arrival GLDs really aren't so bad from a balance perspective.

Actually, according to Gav, 'Generic Daemons' were the compromise. The choice to split Daemons out of the Chaos Codex wasn't made by the design studio, it was made by those wanting another army to sell. Call it cynical, call it whatever you want - but the Generic Daemons in the 'Chaos' Codex were all that Gav was allowed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think the problem is that with Lost and the Damned there was a fairly large potential for abuse, in terms of models and then the list itself.

Any more than any other Codex?

Sorry, but I'm tired of the counter-point to "Why doesn't Codex X exist any more" being "Because people could abuse it!". It's like Fate's infantile assertion that Iron Warrior players "only" ever took min/maxed Oblit/Defiler/Basilisk armies (I played Iron Warriors and regulary took 6 troops choices and only ever took a Basilisk in 1 game... and I own 3 Oblits, not 9) or that people took Daemons "only" because they had no drawbacks over regular troops (really? No drawbacks? At all? Really???) - in other words, these choices were "only" taken because of the power, and now we're free of that thanks to the holy sanctity of the new list (or no list, for all us LatD players out there). It also assumes that now we've moved on from the old Codex that that old abuse is gone. Well... that's partially true - the old abuse is gone... only to be replaced by all new abuses.

The grass isn't greener - it's just packaged differently and costs more.

Lost and the Damned was never a Codex, so that point is kinda moot anyways...

But the problem is, like I said, that there was a potential for abuse.
Whether it's used or not is a different story.

Kanluwen wrote:But the problem is, like I said, that there was a potential for abuse.

It's almost as if you didn't read what I wrote.

Potential for abuse more than any other Codex before and since? Are you truly tricking yourself into thinking that now we're passed that stage of 40K's history the abuse has stopped, or that the potential abuse of an old Codex has been removed with the introduction of a new one? C'mon Kan - you're not that self-deluded.

I didn't say there was no potential abuses since then, HB.

Lost and the Damned was one of those lists where things could get very, very, very nasty very quickly--especially given the lack of "set" models to base things off of.

Which HB is agreeing with (to a degree), and saying it also exists in other codecies (to a degree), and is not a valid argument to eliminate an armylist.

Were getting off-topic here folks. I wan't to hear more about the new daemon models.

Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say there was no potential abuses since then, HB.

Lost and the Damned was one of those lists where things could get very, very, very nasty very quickly--especially given the lack of "set" models to base things off of.

LatD had potential to be nasty? In what way? I see no way that you could describe LatD as nasty or potentially abusive.

Some cool cat must have been able to h4x the system and get pictures of the new models... come onnnnn

I hate waiting. It really does boggle my mind that GW says "hey guys guess what? We're going to release new models for your army but not tell you what they are so you can put off buying them for some months"

Is a little picture/preview too much to ask?

Remember what HBMC said? This is what gw wants. It gets you hyped up, and excited about new models and makes you wanna buy them. If they give you more time to see the new models, you have a greater time period to decide if you really want the models. By saving the pics until it's just a few weeks before release, we are overcome by the hype, aesetic and overall coolness of the models. They are using the human mind to get us, as they now the human mind is pleased by stuff that looks awesome. Smart tricksy fellas, aren't they?

anticitizen013 wrote:Is a little picture/preview too much to ask?

Yes, apparently.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

anticitizen013 wrote:Is a little picture/preview too much to ask?

Yes, apparently.

Apparently? That's a bit more hopeful from you about GW than I expected. I expected more of a "Of course, this is GW we're talking about."

anticitizen013 wrote:Is a little picture/preview too much to ask?

I think I can arrange a red-brown smear by Blanche...

Platuan4th wrote:Apparently? That's a bit more hopeful from you about GW than I expected. I expected more of a "Of course, this is GW we're talking about."

My apologies.

*deep breath*

GW is the devil. They don't show previews not because of any marketing strategy, but because they actually hate their customers - you above all others - and wish that they never had to deal with them. Their next Codex will be Codex: Money, where you just give them money and they kick you in the nuts for your troubles. Previews of that release should appear in December's White Dwarf.

*exhales*


Better?

Hell to the yeah!LOL!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Apparently? That's a bit more hopeful from you about GW than I expected. I expected more of a "Of course, this is GW we're talking about."

My apologies.

*deep breath*

GW is the devil. They don't show previews not because of any marketing strategy, but because they actually hate their customers - you above all others - and wish that they never had to deal with them. Their next Codex will be Codex: Money, where you just give them money and they kick you in the nuts for your troubles. Previews of that release should appear in December's White Dwarf.

*exhales*


Better?

H.B.M.C. wrote:My apologies.

*deep breath*

GW is the devil. They don't show previews not because of any marketing strategy, but because they actually hate their customers - you above all others - and wish that they never had to deal with them. Their next Codex will be Codex: Money, where you just give them money and they kick you in the nuts for your troubles. Previews of that release should appear in December's White Dwarf.

*exhales*


Better?

Should have sent...for a poet

H.B.M.C. wrote:My apologies.

*deep breath*

GW is the devil. They don't show previews not because of any marketing strategy, but because they actually hate their customers - you above all others - and wish that they never had to deal with them. Their next Codex will be Codex: Money, where you just give them money and they kick you in the nuts for your troubles. Previews of that release should appear in December's White Dwarf.

*exhales*


Better?

QFT

+1 to you

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say there was no potential abuses since then, HB.

Lost and the Damned was one of those lists where things could get very, very, very nasty very quickly--especially given the lack of "set" models to base things off of.

LatD had potential to be nasty? In what way? I see no way that you could describe LatD as nasty or potentially abusive.

By today's standards it had very little room for abuse. It traded out alot of the advantageous aspects of the Imperial Guard and replaced them with demons. It didn't have much in the way of unique units and its potential for abuse is more limited than the ability of Daemonhunters and Witch-hunters to take allies both of which have a larger list of ally units accessible to them.

Munch Munch! wrote:Remember what HBMC said? This is what gw wants. It gets you hyped up, and excited about new models and makes you wanna buy them. If they give you more time to see the new models, you have a greater time period to decide if you really want the models. By saving the pics until it's just a few weeks before release, we are overcome by the hype, aesetic and overall coolness of the models. They are using the human mind to get us, as they now the human mind is pleased by stuff that looks awesome. Smart tricksy fellas, aren't they?

It doesn't make sense to me though... I'd be way more hyped up if I knew what was coming. Look at it this way: if I hadn't bought the current Horrors and I got this email, I wouldn't buy anything else for my army until I knew what was actually being released. So I find out what the new Horrors look like and don't like them even the least. The old Horrors are discontinued so I can't get them unless I turn to eBay or even goto the extreme and change armies. This is obviously hypothetical but I'm just trying to play the daemons advocate here .

All I'm trying to say is while their current approach may work on some people, I think the vast majority would rather see what's in store for us and plan and prep so we can squeeze the shiny new goodies into our most likely tight budget if they are worth getting.

H.B.M.C. wrote:My apologies.

*deep breath*

GW is the devil. They don't show previews not because of any marketing strategy, but because they actually hate their customers - you above all others - and wish that they never had to deal with them. Their next Codex will be Codex: Money, where you just give them money and they kick you in the nuts for your troubles. Previews of that release should appear in December's White Dwarf.

*exhales*


Better?

I wish I had a Codex full of money

Harry the Pie-man just confirmed: No plague bearers or screamers in this wave.

Kroothawk wrote:Harry the Pie-man just confirmed: No plague bearers or screamers in this wave.

Screamers aren't in demand but... STILL no plaguebearers?

That's... erm... stupid?

"That's .... GWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!"