Chapterhouse being sued?

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**Manchu**

Polonious, Janthkin: You guys may just want "I am not your atty" disclaimers in your sigs.

**Sarge**

As GW published a system to build your own vehicles, why would CH producing rules be a problem? They opened that door some time ago in my mind.

**Chapterhouse**

Uhem,

Does not GW advocate that players make their own rules and units up for Apocalypse?

I think a good question is if you can copyright a format of statistics for a game, IE BS WS I A S T
etc. That seems a shaky leg to stand on.

**Balance**

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Missed that about CH writing rules for the Walker.
Is that the case?

I can understand GW contesting that.

Rules are, as my limited understanding of IP amtters allows, "interesting" as you can't copyright mechanics, only specific implementations and terms. So it would, technically, be legal to do your own edition of 40k if you didn't use any terms GW has trademarked or otherwise protected, and everything was different enough to pass a copyright suit. of course, at that point, why bother? I think WotC made some news when a core concept of Magic: The Gathering was patented (I believe it was the tapping concept... Yes, they patented turning a card sideways!). In this case, if CH was writing rules for their stuff I'd guess it would come down to what terms were infringed.

**mrblacksunshine_1978**

Dogstar34 wrote:Despite the prevailing anti-GW attitude on this website, I support Games Workshop in this case and in my opinion they are very likely to win. It is not so much that Chapterhouse produced these parts but rather how they marketed them and the nomenclature used that got them into trouble. There are many sites that produce what can be generically termed conversion kits that are appropriately sized and themed for GW products, and GW does not touch them (see Micro Art Studios, Scibor, et al). It is my opinion that the way these sites and others like them name and market their products is the reason they are not percieved as a threat by GW (or at least not a threat cannot be acted upon). It has been opined that GW is attempting to "bully" Chapterhouse by drowning them in legal fees - this is common in legal practice. Despite what you may believe, GW likely has no desire for a protracted legal battle (or as it was put on another website, to 'waste the time of 12 jurors and the justice system') and a settlement would be preferable, therefore the threat of overwhelming litigation and the costs incurred are a deterrent to actually prosecuting the case. If you were going to sue someone, would you do it by half measures or would you use every possible asset at your disposal to ensure a successful outcome? Lawyers tend to minmax the game of life, so stop thinking like rational people if you want to understand!

The thing you have to remember here is this: everyone here knows how conversion kits work, that Chapterhouse is the private business of a nice man and not formally connected to GW, and that they make things we want that are not readily available elsewhere. To the average person, however, none of this is true. A person looking at Games Workshop products for the very first time and with no prior knowledge may very well assume that Chapterhouse is indeed a subsidy of GW due to terms like "Salamander, Alpha Legion or Dragon conversion kit for Land Raider". That is where the problem lies, and that is what the case rests upon despite all the flowery language youve seen. The GW legal team is indeed an advocate for their client and as such wants to present the strongest case possible and that means using the strongest language possible, covering every possible base as far as ways Chapterhouse may have negatively impacted GW's sales, etc.

The demand requested is 1)cease and desist using GW trademarked names. That is a given. 2) Destroy the molds, offending items, and the means for reproducing the offending items. To be expected and a likely outcome. How far the judge will go in deciding exactly what falls under the "means of producing" the items are is unknown. It doesnt mean GW wants to take their Green Stuff away, but any equipment used to make the molds is likely as well as all of the items themselves. 3) Awarding Plaintiff its damages. This is where it gets tricky. Exactly how GW defines their losses as a result of Chapterhouse's activities remains to be seen, but GW is required to "present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and the elements of profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work", c5, §504(b). Looking at Chapterhouse's website and what they sell, GW's legal team could very well ask for everything. Remember, we are dealing with heartless min-maxers here . 4 et al) After that you get boring legal costs and "treble damages as provided by law" which sounds vindictive but is not likely (remember, you can only get as much as you ask for so why not start by asking for the moon and work your way down?).

The good news for Chapterhouse? I am not 100% on the laws for LLCs in Illinois but I believe the company can simply declare bankruptcy and be absolved of all monetary debts. Theyll still have to destroy the molds and items and whatnot, but the people who run Chapterhouse wont be liable for any damages themselves. At this point, that is probably the best outcome.

If this is true then, what you are saying is very ify and I mean very "ify" grounds. The reason because that GW not only has the trademark on names or design, but also the artwork. What next GW sueing customers for having Tattoo of 40k or Fantasy artwork on your body? Big business is the death of American small business and a diease to the American public ie..."Walmart" Now alot of ChapterHouse items are shoulder pads that GW does not even make, so therfore its not copyright infringement. this is just the stepping stone for GW, so that it can have the sole monopoly on for 40k items.

**pretre**

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:If this is true then, what you are saying is very ify and I mean very "ify" grounds. The reason because that GW not only has the trademark on names or design, but also the artwork. What next GW sueing customers for having Tattoo of 40k or Fantasy artwork on your body? Big business is the death of American small business and a diease to the American public ie..."Walmart" Now alot of ChapterHouse items are shoulder pads that GW does not even make, so therfore its not copyright infringement. this is just the stepping stone for GW, so that it can have the sole monopoly on for 40k items.

Tattoos don't make you money; that's not even a close comparison.

Just because a company doesn't make something, doesn't mean it isn't copyright infringement to use their trademarks and intellectual property. I'm pretty sure they don't make Harry Potter branded book lights, but if I make book lights with Harry Potter and Hogwarts logos on them and say 'For use with all Harry Potter books', I'm probably going to get sued.

**Kanluwen**

Chapterhouse wrote:Uhem,

Does not GW advocate that players make their own rules and units up for Apocalypse?

I think a good question is if you can copyright a format of statistics for a game, IE BS WS I A S T
etc. That seems a shaky leg to stand on.

Players can make their own rules and units up for Apocalypse, sure.

Most of us, however, don't sell those units in model form. That may be where the issue crops up.

**MagickalMemories**

Kanluwen wrote:Yet it doesn't say "Unofficial Producer of Custom Bits and Sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy". Which is where the confusion can crop up.

Remember, we're looking at it from "Average Joe's" perspective. Most players don't use forums such as Dakka Dakka or B&C.

In your defense of GW, you don't give enough credit to the "Average Joe."
My father, a 62 year old man who has no idea what one game piece is, compared to another, could look at the GW site, then CH site and easily discern the difference.

Kanluwen wrote:The difference is that Dakka Dakka isn't a "for profit" entity.
Chapterhouse is.

That doesn't matter. You are allowed, in the US, to do this under certain circumstances.Llook at, as has been said, the manufacturers of aftermarket and replacement automobile products. Take "Wierd Al" as an example.
IM (laymans) O, if Chapterhouse weathers the financial storm of defending themselves on this one, GW's up for a swift kick in the @ss.
Furthermore, being a for profit vs. nfp entity hasn't stopped GW from stepping on people in the past. take all of the web forums, for example, that were FREE fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names who received C&D letters. Your whole "for profit" defense fails when applied to them.

To me and many others, this isn't about GW vs CH. It's about GW's bullying, litigious ways ostracizing fans and supporters alike.

Kanluwen wrote:So Dark Angels, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Fleshtearers, Deathwatch, Inquisition, and Black Templar shoulderpads were produced by Chapterhouse first?
I want some of what you're smoking, because apparently it distorts space+time.

As for the "rest of their product lines"...a lot of that stuff is supposedly going to be produced by GW "Soon-ish".

Seriously? "Soon-ish" is the best you've got for almost everything else CH makes? This is from the same company that had a big release that WASN'T going to be Space Hulk. This is from the same company that leaves entire armies to languish for years. You're defending them with "soon-ish," when they have dropped entire -fan loved- armies without support?
Wake up and smell the resin.
GW is going to do what they want to do, motivated entirely by what they believe will make them the most profit. Our desires, as players, will have NO influence on that, barring when it shows that swathes of people want something. Even then, our desires will not be taken into effect. It will be done GW's way, with no intent to please us.
CH, on the other hand, produces products that we, the little guys, ask for. They make changes to their product based on what we want. If they say something's going to happen "soon-ish," I believe them. For the reasons stated above, GW gets no such trust from me.

As for the shoulder pads, I stand by my assertion. Show me a comparative time line of when GW/FW produced pads for those armies en masse, compared to CH doing so.
I'm not talking about a single pad on a single sprue within an entire boxed set. I'm talking about being able to outfit your entire army with a single purchase.

Kanluwen wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:I don't see them using the term "conversion kits."
I googled "40k Space Marine upgrade"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+upgrade&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Page 1 has a number of GW links. No Chapterhouse links on the first page.
Here's the link for "40k Space marine Accessories."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+accessories&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
The first link is for GW. the second is for FW.
Once again, no CH links on the first page.
Eric

Okay, and? What's your point? That GW needs to name their kits better?

My point is that your assertion was unfair and geared towards supporting/defending GW again, rather than being objective.
The searches you did used CH's way of lisitng their items so, naturally, it pulled up CH links first.
That makes sense.
When I did the same type of search, but using GW's terminology, it pulled GW's items and not CH's.
Again, that makes sense.
You can't make a fair comparison on a web search, if your terms are geared towards ONE of the TWO involved entities.

Eric

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agamemnon2 wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:Yes. Now GW can no longer sell the conversion pieces that they never intended to sell anyway.
Oh, wait...

I don't see why people think they have some kind of right to have pieces on the market. GW has the right to not produce anything they like and it doesn't mean anyone can come along and just fill those holes. By your logic, Chapterhouse or another company would be within their rights to produce, say, Wracks or Razorwing swarms (with those exact names, even!) because GW isn't.

That doesn't mean a sensible company can't get away with marketing "shambling mutants" or "fleshripper swarms", but that's never been Chapterhouse's style. They've always called a spade a spade.

I didn't say that I have a right to have what I want on the market. I'm saying that, provided they follow the law, companies like CH have a right to create products that fill gaps like these.
You're right, of course, that GW doesn't have to fill those holes. What I hope we will all soon be reassured of, though, is that is absolutely DOES mean that companies like CH can come along and fill those holes.

By my logic, CH CAN produce "Wracks" or "Razorwing Swarms" -even going so far as using those names, provided they aren't copyrighted/trademarked/whatever. By my intent, however, they can do it by giving them different names or referring them as "usable for/as/etc."

I fully believe that CH has done a good job of covering it's butt, and I hope this case sees a trial to prove it.

Eric

**Kanluwen**

As for the shoulder pads, I stand by my assertion. Show me a comparative time line of when GW/FW produced pads for those armies en masse, compared to CH doing so.
I'm not talking about a single pad on a single sprue within an entire boxed set. I'm talking about being able to outfit your entire army with a single purchase.

You can't "outfit your entire army with a single purchase" from Chapterhouse, not without dropping some serious cash.

And guess what?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440277a&rootCatGameStyle=
That is an entire page, devoted solely to bits for customizing your Space Marine army.

Forge World has the same "shoulderpads" and conversion kits, albeit mostly for Terminators or smaller Chapters like Red Scorpions, Raven Guard, etc.

You're defending them with "soon-ish," when they have dropped entire -fan loved- armies without support?

You mean Squats, which sold like crap? Dogs of War, which were really only bought by people who used them as supplements for their "primary" army? Chaos Dwarves, which just like Squats, didn't sell worth a crap?

Yeah. Those were really "fan loved"!

Furthermore, being a for profit vs. nfp entity hasn't stopped GW from stepping on people in the past. take all of the web forums, for example, that were FREE fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names who received C&D letters. Your whole "for profit" defense fails when applied to them.

You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

**Alpharius**

This might be a good time to remind everyone to calm down, take a deep breath, re-read the rules of this site and endeavor to discuss the issue at hand in a manner that would do us all proud...

**warboss**

Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

**pretre**

warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

I think the difference is that they were creating material using GW's trademarks and reposting GW's own material. Dakka doesn't really do that as it is predominantly a forum and image archive.

Also, that's a lot of snark.

**Kanluwen**

warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

If you're going to start up with the apologist insult crap, at least make an effort. Your attempt is downright laughable.

"Dakka Dakka" is not a copywritten phrase, nor can it really be. Yakface, Russ, etc can explain why they're in the clear about it far better than I ever could.

The difference is that those sites that were went after, one of which billed itself as "The Home of Blood Bowl" were making claims far and above what a "fan site" can make.
They tried to swing big, and missed. Kind of like your insult.

**HungryTaz**

Take "Wierd Al" as an example.

Big difference here is that Weird Al asks for permission from an artist before he makes money from a parody. This would be akin to Chapter House licensing their products.

Perhaps GW needs to start a 'licensing' model for third party producers to use. That would solve a lot of these problems.

**warboss**

Kanluwen wrote:
warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

If you're going to start up with the apologist insult crap, at least make an effort. Your attempt is downright laughable.

"Dakka Dakka" is not a copywritten phrase, nor can it really be. Yakface, Russ, etc can explain why they're in the clear about it far better than I ever could.

The difference is that those sites that were went after, one of which billed itself as "The Home of Blood Bowl" were making claims far and above what a "fan site" can make.
They tried to swing big, and missed. Kind of like your insult.

i'm using the criteria that YOU set forth in your post exactly as quoted above... accepting donations, a GW fan site, and using GW terminology in their names. feel free to reread your own words and see. Only now are you clarifying your criteria for improper/illegal/infringing GW fan site in a "downright laughable" attempt at clarifying your overzealous years long defense of ANYTHING gw does. What dakka does is completely legal and i'm not disputing that; your own post did.

**MajorTom11**

Remember boys... it is possible to agree to disagree. We will find out the answer as to whether or not CH was operating fully legally or not soon enough. Definitively. Morally speaking, that is up to the individual, and we can discuss without anyone being definitively right or wrong, and we don't need to be definitively right or wrong either!

**warboss**

pretre wrote:I think the difference is that they were creating material using GW's trademarks and reposting GW's own material. Dakka doesn't really do that as it is predominantly a forum and image archive.

Also, that's a lot of snark.

i'm not addressing the merits of this case in that particular post, just the criteria than kan is using to demonize the fan sites. he's listed what those other sites supposedly did wrong and it happens to coincide with what dakka does. if he's going to get up on his soap box and preach, i'll point out the flaws in his sermon.

**Hulksmash**

Ummm...It's the internet, I always need to be right

**Taoofss**

As long as GW can show that their profits are negatively impacted by CH, then they have a case.

Some of the arguments here are down right silly.

Examples: Ipod cases: Yes other companies make Ipod cases, but those cases are not negatively impacting Ipod pone sells.

A better phone example would be the Asian chap who created a mod that turned Ipod touch into fully functional phones. You needed to buy his parts and and iphone touch. Apple wasted no time in shutting this down.

And did someone really bring up Weird Al? Look up parody laws, unless you want to argue the CH is a parody of GW, I don't see your point at all.

So many straw-man arguments. Copy right laws are rules, it doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, they are still rules. You may not like it, but GW is protecting their own interest.

If I came up with a product, why should I let you profit off my idea?

**pretre**

Hulksmash wrote:Ummm...It's the internet, I always need to be right

Internet arguments are serious business.

**Kanluwen**

warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

If you're going to start up with the apologist insult crap, at least make an effort. Your attempt is downright laughable.

"Dakka Dakka" is not a copywritten phrase, nor can it really be. Yakface, Russ, etc can explain why they're in the clear about it far better than I ever could.

The difference is that those sites that were went after, one of which billed itself as "The Home of Blood Bowl" were making claims far and above what a "fan site" can make.
They tried to swing big, and missed. Kind of like your insult.

i'm using the criteria that YOU set forth in your post exactly as quoted above... accepting donations, a GW fan site, and using GW terminology in their names. feel free to reread your own words and see. Only now are you clarifying your criteria for improper/illegal/infringing GW fan site in a "downright laughable" attempt at clarifying your overzealous years long defense of ANYTHING gw does. What dakka does is completely legal and i'm not disputing that; your own post did.

And only you fail to understand that "terminology" doesn't apply to phrases like 'Dakka Dakka'.

Calling your site "BloodBowl.org" and "The Home of Blood Bowl" is totally different than "DakkaDakka-Warhammer 40k Forums".
So next time, before you start talking, I'd suggest you learn how to read and take off your tin foil hat. GW isn't going to steal your brain.

Let's break down my post, shall we?

You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

You cannot make a profit on a fan site. When the owner sold his bloody site to Curse Gaming, Inc he did just that.
Several of the Blood Bowl/Specialist Games sites that were targeted by last year's lawsuits were also charging or requiring "donations" for you to be able to access what is, on the GW site, available for free.

At least one of those sites, the one making the biggest stink about the whole thing, was also publishing the rules for games that GW no longer owns the licenses to--which would get GW in a fluffy bunny storm of trouble if nothing was done to shut the site down in regards to that.

**Gibbsey**

warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

um, you mean like the fan site you're currently posting on that uses GW terminology and accepts donations? does that mean that you feel duty bound as a staunch defender of GWs maiden IP honor to report dakkadakka's supposedly egregious violations to GW?

If you're going to start up with the apologist insult crap, at least make an effort. Your attempt is downright laughable.

"Dakka Dakka" is not a copywritten phrase, nor can it really be. Yakface, Russ, etc can explain why they're in the clear about it far better than I ever could.

The difference is that those sites that were went after, one of which billed itself as "The Home of Blood Bowl" were making claims far and above what a "fan site" can make.
They tried to swing big, and missed. Kind of like your insult.

i'm using the criteria that YOU set forth in your post exactly as quoted above... accepting donations, a GW fan site, and using GW terminology in their names. feel free to reread your own words and see. Only now are you clarifying your criteria for improper/illegal/infringing GW fan site in a "downright laughable" attempt at clarifying your overzealous years long defense of ANYTHING gw does. What dakka does is completely legal and i'm not disputing that; your own post did.

I beleive he's point out the fact you cant just take copyrighted terms and make a fan site to directly compete with them, if you read what he posted it makes sense unless you want to be pendantic about it.

If you use GW copyrighted terms and iconography then expect to be sued, simply rename things to "large monster kit" or "popular corridor space game kit" if you want to avoid legal troubles. GW wont usually have problems with conversion kits etc unless they compete with what they are selling.

**Kanluwen**

warboss wrote:
pretre wrote:I think the difference is that they were creating material using GW's trademarks and reposting GW's own material. Dakka doesn't really do that as it is predominantly a forum and image archive.

Also, that's a lot of snark.

i'm not addressing the merits of this case in that particular post, just the criteria than kan is using to demonize the fan sites. he's listed what those other sites supposedly did wrong and it happens to coincide with what dakka does. if he's going to get up on his soap box and preach, i'll point out the flaws in his sermon.

And if you're going to try to "point out the flaws", you had damned well better be able to understand my crtieria without me needing to break out crayons and fingerpaints to explain the criteria to you.

Does DakkaDakka require you to pay to be able to use certain aspects of the site? No.
Do they accept donations? Yes.

Has DakkaDakka been sold to a corporate entity? No. It was sold by Russ to Yakface.

Does DakkaDakka bill itself as "the Home of Warhammer"? Nope. Does Dakka post entire rules sets for copywritten material on the site? No. In fact, if you do that you'll usually get suspended and the content deleted--unless it's actually your content to distribute as you please.

**MagickalMemories**

Kanluwen wrote:
As for the shoulder pads, I stand by my assertion. Show me a comparative time line of when GW/FW produced pads for those armies en masse, compared to CH doing so.
I'm not talking about a single pad on a single sprue within an entire boxed set. I'm talking about being able to outfit your entire army with a single purchase.

You can't "outfit your entire army with a single purchase" from Chapterhouse, not without dropping some serious cash.

And guess what?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440277a&rootCatGameStyle=
That is an entire page, devoted solely to bits for customizing your Space Marine army.

Forge World has the same "shoulderpads" and conversion kits, albeit mostly for Terminators or smaller Chapters like Red Scorpions, Raven Guard, etc.

So, then, should I take taht to mean you can't/won't produce such a timeline?
Also, you easily CAN outfit your entire army with a single purchase from CH. So what if it costs serious cash? You can't buy a GW army in one go (from GW) without dropping serious cash, so why should it matter that you'd have to do so to buy the add-ons you want?

I know FW produces a lot of the same stuff CH does. My point is that much -if not most- was done by CH before GW dug in. Also, CH makes varying sculpts, where GW/FW only make a limited #.

Kanluwen wrote:

You're defending them with "soon-ish," when they have dropped entire -fan loved- armies without support?

You mean Squats, which sold like crap? Dogs of War, which were really only bought by people who used them as supplements for their "primary" army? Chaos Dwarves, which just like Squats, didn't sell worth a crap?

Yeah. Those were really "fan loved"!

Mostly, I'm referring to Squats & Chaos Dwarves.
Everywhere you go, if you talk to people who have been familiar with the games since those armies were part of it, a majority of them liked and/or miss those armies.
I'm also referring to the entire EoT codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Furthermore, being a for profit vs. nfp entity hasn't stopped GW from stepping on people in the past. take all of the web forums, for example, that were FREE fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names who received C&D letters. Your whole "for profit" defense fails when applied to them.

You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

Are those the ONLY sites GW sent C&D's to? Nope.
Don't only point out the ones that support your p.o.v. It only makes it look like you're willfully ignoring facts that contradict your opinion.

Sadly, you did not address much of what I had to say. Specifically, much of what you don't seem to have a decent GW defense against.

Alpharius wrote:This might be a good time to remind everyone to calm down, take a deep breath, re-read the rules of this site and endeavor to discuss the issue at hand in a manner that would do us all proud...

Agreed.
FWIW, Alph, I'll back out of a disagreement before I get into a fight over it. If Kanluwen (or anyone) takes any offense to anything I say in disagreement with them, they need to reassess how they're reading my statements and choosing to interpret them. I try to keep all personal attacks out of it.

HungryTaz wrote:
Take "Wierd Al" as an example.

Big difference here is that Weird Al asks for permission from an artist before he makes money from a parody. This would be akin to Chapter House licensing their products.

Perhaps GW needs to start a 'licensing' model for third party producers to use. That would solve a lot of these problems.

Wierd Al only asks permission as a courtesy. he is not required to by law.
If there are any questions about that, do some research on the issues he had with Coolio, when he released "Amish Paradise," parodying "Gangsta Paradise." He asked Coolio for permission, Coolio refused.
It got released anyway. The song was a huge hit.

Agreed, re: GW licensing. Sadly, though, I would bet that they'd demand near total control over what was produced. In the end, it would end up a fiasco, IMO.

Eric

**Manchu**

Alright, everyone step away from their computer and take a deep breath. Keep the discussion, NOT ARGUMENT, respectful and on-topic.

**Wolfstan**

What about if they changed the wording to something like "suitable / compatible for conversions with GW models". I mean how many small businesses out there produce accessories for mobile devices and mention the product name in their description?

Eg:

"Suitable for use with iPad"

It isn't an official Apple product, but the advertising would say that you can use it with an iPad. If you didn't use the name "iPad" how would you describe it? You're using the word "iPad" as a point of reference. So why can't CH change their wording to reflect such a situation?

Oh forgot, what about Verlinden products? They are made to fit Tamiya kits and advertised as such.

**Kanluwen**

MagickalMemories wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
As for the shoulder pads, I stand by my assertion. Show me a comparative time line of when GW/FW produced pads for those armies en masse, compared to CH doing so.
I'm not talking about a single pad on a single sprue within an entire boxed set. I'm talking about being able to outfit your entire army with a single purchase.

You can't "outfit your entire army with a single purchase" from Chapterhouse, not without dropping some serious cash.

And guess what?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440277a&rootCatGameStyle=
That is an entire page, devoted solely to bits for customizing your Space Marine army.

Forge World has the same "shoulderpads" and conversion kits, albeit mostly for Terminators or smaller Chapters like Red Scorpions, Raven Guard, etc.

So, then, should I take taht to mean you can't/won't produce such a timeline?
Also, you easily CAN outfit your entire army with a single purchase from CH. So what if it costs serious cash? You can't buy a GW army in one go (from GW) without dropping serious cash, so why should it matter that you'd have to do so to buy the add-ons you want?

I know FW produces a lot of the same stuff CH does. My point is that much -if not most- was done by CH before GW dug in. Also, CH makes varying sculpts, where GW/FW only make a limited #.

Practically everything in that line-up was done for the previous Space Marine codex, two editions back.
So yeah. That wasn't "done by CH before GW".
Oh, and let's not forget that since those metals, we've also had the plastic Space Wolves kits, the plastic Dark Angels kits, the plastic Black Templar kits...
All of which came before Chapterhouse.

You were saying?

Kanluwen wrote:

You're defending them with "soon-ish," when they have dropped entire -fan loved- armies without support?

You mean Squats, which sold like crap? Dogs of War, which were really only bought by people who used them as supplements for their "primary" army? Chaos Dwarves, which just like Squats, didn't sell worth a crap?

Yeah. Those were really "fan loved"!

Mostly, I'm referring to Squats & Chaos Dwarves.
Everywhere you go, if you talk to people who have been familiar with the games since those armies were part of it, a majority of them liked and/or miss those armies.

Bull. Almost everyone I've talked to who have been playing since Rogue Trader or 2nd thought the Squats were crap. They were poorly implemented and didn't fit when they moved the fluff forward. They also had some of the poorest sales, by all accounts, of anything outside of Chaos Dwarves.

I'm also referring to the entire EoT codex.

Which was never once said to be something that was going to be "permanent". It was a campaign book, just like Storm of Chaos.

If you were expecting those to be "continually updated", you're absurd. They have no obligation to update those books or continually revisit a completed campaign. Or do you think they need to go back and republish Codex: Armageddon too?

P.S.
Imperial Armour volumes 5-7 want to have a word with you regarding the Lost and the Damned.

Kanluwen wrote:

Furthermore, being a for profit vs. nfp entity hasn't stopped GW from stepping on people in the past. take all of the web forums, for example, that were FREE fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names who received C&D letters. Your whole "for profit" defense fails when applied to them.

You mean those "FREE" fan sites that wanted donations?
Or the Warhammer Online "fan site" that the owner sold to Curse Gaming, Inc?

Yeah. Those are totally "free fan sites that happened to use GW terminology in their names".

Are those the ONLY sites GW sent C&D's to? Nope.
Don't only point out the ones that support your p.o.v. It only makes it look like you're willfully ignoring facts that contradict your opinion.

Sadly, you did not address much of what I had to say. Specifically, much of what you don't seem to have a decent GW defense against.

Because much "of what you had to say" was crap.
Almost every single site that they went after with those C&Ds had trademarks in their names. Unless you're going to tell me that "Blood Bowl" is commonly used to describe anything other than the Fantasy Football game.

I also note that you didn't make a reply in regards to Curse Gaming, which makes you "look like you're willfully ignoring facts that contradict your opinion."

Alpharius wrote:This might be a good time to remind everyone to calm down, take a deep breath, re-read the rules of this site and endeavor to discuss the issue at hand in a manner that would do us all proud...

Agreed.
FWIW, Alph, I'll back out of a disagreement before I get into a fight over it. If Kanluwen (or anyone) takes any offense to anything I say in disagreement with them, they need to reassess how they're reading my statements and choosing to interpret them. I try to keep all personal attacks out of it.

Or you just need to back out and stop acting like you're being victimized. You chose to start this debate up. You also chose to bring up the C&Ds from last year, of which almost every single one of them was resolved without having to go to court. Only a few stubborn sites that chose to play martyr got hit hard, and that was because of lazy spankers for the most part.

HungryTaz wrote:
Take "Wierd Al" as an example.

Big difference here is that Weird Al asks for permission from an artist before he makes money from a parody. This would be akin to Chapter House licensing their products.

Perhaps GW needs to start a 'licensing' model for third party producers to use. That would solve a lot of these problems.

Wierd Al only asks permission as a courtesy. he is not required to by law.
If there are any questions about that, do some research on the issues he had with Coolio, when he released "Amish Paradise," parodying "Gangsta Paradise." He asked Coolio for permission, Coolio refused.
It got released anyway. The song was a huge hit.

Because under fair usage, parodies are protected.

Agreed, re: GW licensing. Sadly, though, I would bet that they'd demand near total control over what was produced. In the end, it would end up a fiasco, IMO.
Eric

And you have no clue what the feth you're talking about.
They did license early on. Or do not remember ArmorCast or the "original" Forge World?

**chaos0xomega**

I hope that CH fights the case, and if I can scrounge up some cash I will donate to the cause. It seems that GW are annoyed by that walker in particular, yet the walker bears no resemblance to anything GW or FW have thus far produced, or featured as artwork in any of their productions. Indeed, its contadictory to the fluff of the Tau to begin with.

**Kanluwen**

I'm curious as to how you can say that with a straight face, Chaos.

The railguns are almost carbon copies of the ones on Broadsides/Hammerheads, the main body looks like a chopped in half Devilfish, and the overall "look" of it matches the artwork that we have of Tau Sept Worlds and the scenery that we constantly see whenever they play games depicting Tau Septs "under siege".

**MagickalMemories**

Manchu wrote:Alright, everyone step away from their computer and take a deep breath. Keep the discussion, NOT ARGUMENT, respectful and on-topic.

At this point, Manchu, I'm taking your advice -and keeping my word- and stepping away.

Eric

Edited by Manchu.