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This is the same approach that Microsoft has used successfully - any time some small upstart comes along and starts to gather momentum, squash them with a lawsuit. Even if it's not a great lawsuit, you can probably win by attrition and drive the little guy out of business. And it serves as a warning to the other little guys to keep them inline and keep their heads down.

I hope that CH wins because it'll open things up for other 3rd party products, which only makes the hobby better. Competition is good - drives down cost and improves product.

For all you lawyers - does it make strategic sense in a case like this to file a counter-suit? It's my understanding that if the defendant wins, they could counter-sue to recover legal costs, but is there any ability to sue now and try to recover some money now and not 5 years from now?

I wonder if GW has ever considered doing the Borg method - just assimilate the other vendors in some fashion. Even if you don't bring them into the company proper, there's obviously a demand for the products, which means there's profit to be made. Instead, GW goes for the scorched earth approach.

Good luck to Chapterhouse AND GW.

As a community we have brought this on, we want extra product that fills the same aesthetic n (counts as) that GW's own product has (regardless of availability).

You want the same or similar aesthetic, then you have parasitical, copycat, products.

If anything 3rd party manufacturing stifles creativity. yes, we moan about the lack of scratchbuilds and conversions and yet we want to buy the things we should be making ourselves, off the shelf.

Convenience is biting back.

However:

If the above is the case then GW needs to be more receptive to customer demand, if only by producing all the options for codex /army book entries. It would be a start.

What I find confusing is that some people in this thread point to the fact that if they made complete models, rather than conversion kits, they'd be more in the clear. And yet the super-heavy-walker is one of the things repeatedly called out in the filing... so is making a complete model with a similar aesthetic actually more risky?

And to those mocking the donation button... you don't have to donate if you don't want to. But I'm sure there are some people that don't want the precedent to be set of GW being able to shut down third-party bits makers, and would be willing to support Chapterhouse's legal efforts.

Here's hoping they can stand up... but honestly, if it were me I would probably be working out a settlement of some kind :-/. They've always had backbone, so I'm sure they'll fight if it's feasible from a cost and legal standpoint... but if it is or not remains to be seen.

Despite the prevailing anti-GW attitude on this website, I support Games Workshop in this case and in my opinion they are very likely to win. It is not so much that Chapterhouse produced these parts but rather how they marketed them and the nomenclature used that got them into trouble. There are many sites that produce what can be generically termed conversion kits that are appropriately sized and themed for GW products, and GW does not touch them (see Micro Art Studios, Scibor, et al). It is my opinion that the way these sites and others like them name and market their products is the reason they are not percieved as a threat by GW (or at least not a threat cannot be acted upon). It has been opined that GW is attempting to "bully" Chapterhouse by drowning them in legal fees - this is common in legal practice. Despite what you may believe, GW likely has no desire for a protracted legal battle (or as it was put on another website, to 'waste the time of 12 jurors and the justice system') and a settlement would be preferable, therefore the threat of overwhelming litigation and the costs incurred are a deterrent to actually prosecuting the case. If you were going to sue someone, would you do it by half measures or would you use every possible asset at your disposal to ensure a successful outcome? Lawyers tend to minmax the game of life, so stop thinking like rational people if you want to understand!

The thing you have to remember here is this: everyone here knows how conversion kits work, that Chapterhouse is the private business of a nice man and not formally connected to GW, and that they make things we want that are not readily available elsewhere. To the average person, however, none of this is true. A person looking at Games Workshop products for the very first time and with no prior knowledge may very well assume that Chapterhouse is indeed a subsidy of GW due to terms like "Salamander, Alpha Legion or Dragon conversion kit for Land Raider". That is where the problem lies, and that is what the case rests upon despite all the flowery language youve seen. The GW legal team is indeed an advocate for their client and as such wants to present the strongest case possible and that means using the strongest language possible, covering every possible base as far as ways Chapterhouse may have negatively impacted GW's sales, etc.

The demand requested is 1)cease and desist using GW trademarked names. That is a given. 2) Destroy the molds, offending items, and the means for reproducing the offending items. To be expected and a likely outcome. How far the judge will go in deciding exactly what falls under the "means of producing" the items are is unknown. It doesnt mean GW wants to take their Green Stuff away, but any equipment used to make the molds is likely as well as all of the items themselves. 3) Awarding Plaintiff its damages. This is where it gets tricky. Exactly how GW defines their losses as a result of Chapterhouse's activities remains to be seen, but GW is required to "present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and the elements of profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work", c5, §504(b). Looking at Chapterhouse's website and what they sell, GW's legal team could very well ask for everything. Remember, we are dealing with heartless min-maxers here . 4 et al) After that you get boring legal costs and "treble damages as provided by law" which sounds vindictive but is not likely (remember, you can only get as much as you ask for so why not start by asking for the moon and work your way down?).

The good news for Chapterhouse? I am not 100% on the laws for LLCs in Illinois but I believe the company can simply declare bankruptcy and be absolved of all monetary debts. Theyll still have to destroy the molds and items and whatnot, but the people who run Chapterhouse wont be liable for any damages themselves. At this point, that is probably the best outcome.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I'm not sure that GW can go after the Assault walker, it was a complete custom sculpt and as far as I can tell the only possible thing that infringes is the logo on the painted example.

I think they can, as the Tau iconography is actually present on the model. So while it may just be a symbol, it's clearly referencing GW's work.

This has been an interesting read...I am curious to see how it comes out. This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me...I have been following the model railroading hobby since before I could read (sitting in my Dad's lap looking at the pictures of Model Railroader magazine), and this sort of thing is a big part of that hobby. Every thing from replacement hand rails to replacement cabs to replacement trucks (the metal frames that hold the wheels) can be purchased and used to upgrade a manufacturer's model.

Of course, they are called "detail" parts rather than "conversion" parts, and perhaps a big part of this is that the parts aren't really original works of art but rather are designed to match a real-world machine exactly.

Eh, call me when Chapterhouse posts.

FWIW, since the opposite opinion has been given in this thread, I have done business with them and found their services and products perfectly satisfactory.

The walker has been clearly labeled/marketed as a Tau vehicle except it looks nothing like anything GW or even Forgeworld has done for Tau, its a massive lumbering beast which looks more like a crazy Imperial Defiler (which in itself is a paradox) than something Tau would use. This is the main reason they are getting in to trouble for it from what I can tell, GW can (quite justifiably imo) assume that most people will assume that Tau model = made by GW and the design style and quality of the model is such that they could argue that it degrades their reputation. Compared to the Tau battlesuits that Forgeworld do it looks really terrible, it is so low in detail that the unpainted model looks like it could have been scratchbuilt from pipe fittings. From a fluff perspective it also runs into problems for the same reason, it is supposed to be a Tau vehicle but by GW Tau should not have super heavy land vehicles so GW can argue that its existence is damaging/disrupting their background and by extension their models and sales.

Manchu wrote:Eh, call me when Chapterhouse posts.

FWIW, since the opposite opinion has been given in this thread, I have done business with them and found their services and products perfectly satisfactory.

He already did, actually.

And he did the smart thing which is not to comment on the actual legalities of the case.

It's a few pages back, Manchu

So anyone's thoughts on why GW is going after the Super Heavy Walker? It does have a very similar aesthetic to the tau... it's just interesting to me that that seems to draw GW's ire more than the conversion kits.

RiTides wrote:It's a few pages back, Manchu

So anyone's thoughts on why GW is going after the Super Heavy Walker? It does have a very similar aesthetic to the tau... it's just interesting to me that that seems to draw GW's ire more than the conversion kits.

*Insert Personal Theory Time*
If I had to take a guess, it's mostly drawing their ire because of the price, size, and the overall "marketing" of it. If CH had just done it as something that could be used as a "stand-in" Crisis Suit or something of that nature...it likely would be overlooked.

But because Chapterhouse wrote rules for it, etc...it again goes to that "potential confusion with official GW products".
*End Personal Theory*

But eh. Who knows? Maybe they just don't like how it looks

RiTides wrote:It's a few pages back, Manchu

So anyone's thoughts on why GW is going after the Super Heavy Walker? It does have a very similar aesthetic to the tau... it's just interesting to me that that seems to draw GW's ire more than the conversion kits.

because they have the money (they turned a profit this year!) and can. considering that tau have a very similar aesthetic to plenty of anime robots out there with their guns and curved lines, i don't see why they're specifying that one. from what the various legal eagles here have said, you pretty much get hit with a sawed off shotgun blast initially on these things.

RiTides wrote:It's a few pages back, Manchu

So anyone's thoughts on why GW is going after the Super Heavy Walker? It does have a very similar aesthetic to the tau... it's just interesting to me that that seems to draw GW's ire more than the conversion kits.

I think that GW is targeting Chapterhouse Super Heavy Walker for 2reasons:

1. As pointed out in what Microsoft does, it sues smaller, increasingly competitive companies with some remote or actual infringement occuring to remove them as future competition. GW may of felt threatened by CH and their niche in the hobby market. The Super Heavy Walker is simply the catalyst for the lawsuit.

2. The Super Heavy Walker crosses a fine line between GW and third parties that make things that compliment rather than compete with the GW product line. While CH may say it is not a GW Tau product, it is still influenced clearly via the pictures that it is imagined as a Tau vehicle of some kind. GW probably feels it goes too far where vehicle construction in its entirety now is directly competing with GW products.

Mr. Burning wrote:As a community we have brought this on, we want extra product that fills the same aesthetic n (counts as) that GW's own product has (regardless of availability).

You want the same or similar aesthetic, then you have parasitical, copycat, products.

That is an interesting point. The first question that tends to be asked whenever a new company produces anything at all is whether or not it's useful for 40k out-of-the-box. Indeed, Chapterhouse reps mentioned that the most requested additions to their line have always been various GW icons, which they've turned down. To an extent, consumers are oft to blame in this, sugaring over the devil of IP infringement.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:As a community we have brought this on, we want extra product that fills the same aesthetic n (counts as) that GW's own product has (regardless of availability).

You want the same or similar aesthetic, then you have parasitical, copycat, products.

That is an interesting point. The first question that tends to be asked whenever a new company produces anything at all is whether or not it's useful for 40k out-of-the-box. Indeed, Chapterhouse reps mentioned that the most requested additions to their line have always been various GW icons, which they've turned down. To an extent, consumers are oft to blame in this, sugaring over the devil of IP infringement.

And it does have to do with skill and general laziness of the consumer.

We who want better looking models who cannot produce it ourselves look to others to fill the gap.

I think the Super Heavy Walker gets called out because they allege that Paulson did the sculpt, and that was the only item it appears they allege was made by a separate party to the suit. It's their thread to pull another person into the suit (and my guess is that they're hoping to shut down Paulson too).

Another question for the lawyers. I'm a Professional Engineer, and we carry liability and design error/omission insurance. If we provide services for a client that are in error, our insurance helps cover the claim against us. I assume lawyers carry similar coverage. If a client gets incorrect, inaccurate, or bad legal advice, can they go back on the lawyer for their losses (including legal representation during a civil suit, loss revenue, etc.)? While several people have pointed out that this could cost CH tens of thousands of dollars, it may not be CH paying the bills - it might be whoever gave them the legal advice that they were compling with applicable laws, statues, and ordinances in the sale of their products.

Good luck to CH.

dietrich wrote:I think the Super Heavy Walker gets called out because they allege that Paulson did the sculpt, and that was the only item it appears they allege was made by a separate party to the suit. It's their thread to pull another person into the suit (and my guess is that they're hoping to shut down Paulson too).

I have to wonder if Paulson got named in error, rather than them hoping to "shut him down". I've never heard of the guy before now and he says he'd never had any contact with CH prior to being named in the suit.

Agamemnon2 wrote:[Indeed, Chapterhouse reps mentioned that the most requested additions to their line have always been various GW icons, which they've turned down.

I had contacted them about doing some Space Wolf Krakendoom shoulder pads. They explained that if it's a generic icon, they can do it if the artist gives them permission (or if they create the icon themselves), but they couldn't do an icon that was created by GW. Ultimately, I didn't go through with it.

@Nick: Yep, saw that. I meant, when Chapterhouse posts something substantive.

Kanluwen wrote:

dietrich wrote:I think the Super Heavy Walker gets called out because they allege that Paulson did the sculpt, and that was the only item it appears they allege was made by a separate party to the suit. It's their thread to pull another person into the suit (and my guess is that they're hoping to shut down Paulson too).

I have to wonder if Paulson got named in error, rather than them hoping to "shut him down". I've never heard of the guy before now and he says he'd never had any contact with CH prior to being named in the suit.

Paulson claims it was an error. I don't know if CH has responded. It may have been a true error on GW's part or an intentional error. Paulson makes a few things - thunderwolves for one. I doubt GW will be upset if they can shut down two third-party vendors in one suit instead of just one - reduces their legal fees.

Manchu wrote:@Nick: Yep, saw that. I meant, when Chapterhouse posts something substantive.

I don't think that will be for a looooong time


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dietrich wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

dietrich wrote:I think the Super Heavy Walker gets called out because they allege that Paulson did the sculpt, and that was the only item it appears they allege was made by a separate party to the suit. It's their thread to pull another person into the suit (and my guess is that they're hoping to shut down Paulson too).

I have to wonder if Paulson got named in error, rather than them hoping to "shut him down". I've never heard of the guy before now and he says he'd never had any contact with CH prior to being named in the suit.

Paulson claims it was an error. I don't know if CH has responded. It may have been a true error on GW's part or an intentional error. Paulson makes a few things - thunderwolves for one. I doubt GW will be upset if they can shut down two third-party vendors in one suit instead of just one - reduces their legal fees.

I didn't really see anything on Paulson's site that would make them a "big fish". Although those Riding Wolves are actually just as bad as the GW one Is it really that hard to make a wolf the size of a Rhino APC that actually looks like a wolf?!

WarOne wrote:And it does have to do with skill and general laziness of the consumer.

We who want better looking models who cannot produce it ourselves look to others to fill the gap.

lol, whenever a thread is started about painting requirements at tournies, there are always lots of people that post that they have no interest in painting and some barely even deign to assemble their minis just because they're forced to... they just want to play and don't care about the hobby aspect. i don't think it's a good idea to say that self-sculpting should be the standard as it'll only marginalize the hobby even more and reduce the player base. the constant relentless advancement of technology has already sucked up alot of potentional tabletop RPG and minis players who now game only electronically. back when the atari 2600 was the pinnacle of electronic entertainment and your character was a 10x10 pixel animation, your imagination plus a little effort was clearly superior. i personally don't want scifi/fantasy gaming to turn into non-WWII historical gaming where the players are almost as old as the wars they're fighting. WWII gaming has been resuscitated with flames of war but the rest of the genre is quite stagnant. i once saw a quip online about a historical gamer commenting when he started gaming in his twenties that he was the youngest gamer in his group... 30 years later, he still is!

we don't need an even higher barrier to entry into the cool army club. third party kits help players and the industry overall.

Barring personal frustration boiling over, I'd tend to agree.

Wait didn't GW like Pyriel so much they used his name along with Brother Argos from B+C in one of the Salamander's books? Or am I confusing him with another poster? If Im right it seems like a big disconnect

Guys, complaints (the initial paperwork used to file a civil suit) are a starting point. Yeah, a lot of stuff is weak and they have no hope of winning. That's how it's done. There is enough meat on a few of the bones to be a genuine issue.

To whoever asked about legal malpractice: yes, nearly all lawyers carry malpractice insurance, and you can sue a lawyer for committing malpractice. However, simply giving bad advice is not malpractice, especially when tyring to predict the conduct of a third party (GW) and a jury. Outside of gross negligence (missing a filing deadline, etc) few legal malpractice cases get off the ground. If not, nobody would ever be able to give legal advice.

So what about Scibor or Pig Iron or other folks who make upgrade bitz? or is it just because chapterhouse marketed stuff specifically for GW?

I was actually thinking about sculpting my own set of cadian great coat "legs" what would just be the bottom half of the model and really just look like the bottom of a trench coat with boots sticking out. I guess similar to the one pair of legs in the cadian command squad. They'd be made to fit with cadian bodies, they'd be for my own army and if folks liked em I'd try casting them in resin or getting metals produced if there was enough demand. But, I don't wanna get sued.

DutchKillsRambo wrote:Wait didn't GW like Pyriel so much they used his name along with Brother Argos from B+C in one of the Salamander's books? Or am I confusing him with another poster? If I'm right it seems like a big disconnect

Supposedly one of the Black Library authors did that. I wouldn't give it much credit though.

dietrich wrote:For all you lawyers - does it make strategic sense in a case like this to file a counter-suit? It's my understanding that if the defendant wins, they could counter-sue to recover legal costs, but is there any ability to sue now and try to recover some money now and not 5 years from now?

The US, by and large, requires each party to pay its own expenses. Legal fees & costs are generally only available in extraordinary situations (although the copyright act does have some provision for the judge to award attorney's fees to the prevailing party).

Hi Kanwulen

Missed that about CH writing rules for the Walker.
Is that the case?

I can understand GW contesting that.
But does anyone happen to know if any attempt was made by GW to discuss the issue before taking legal action?