Chapterhouse being sued?

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**Kroothawk**

paulson games wrote:As I'm also named in the suit I'm choosing not to comment on the particulars until my lawyer says it's ok.

However one point that I want to clear up is that I have never been a business associate of Chapterhouse nor even so much as spoken to Nick until Iafter I recieved the letter and called him to ask "wtf why are they saying I'm involved with your company?" I have had absolutely no connection to the super heavy assault walker kit at any point, I had absolutely no hand in it's design, creation or manufactuer. GW got their information on that completely wrong and have me confused with someone else.

That's what I thought, thanks for clearing this up.
A good sign that expensive lawyers are not always capable lawyers. So much for saving GW's good reputation!
Good luck to you and Chapterhouse!

aka_mythos wrote:GW wants the law applied in a way that treats their models as art, hence all their legalese about each conversion being a unique piece that they give permission. If the law looks at the model kits and their intended use as something other than unique artistic works, than the law becomes much the same as cars and aftermarket automotive parts and GW is left with a lot less protection.

The simple fact is that what Chapterhouse does is in the spirit of the model building hobby that existed before GW ever did. Companies and individuals have produced conversion kits to modify other companies model kits since at least the 50's.

This leaves only GWs complaints on the use of trademarks and perceived diminished value. The first is whether you can make reference to something with out claiming ownership. GW says no, Chapterhouse says yes. This comes to nominative fair use. It is acceptable to describe one product with reference to another persons IP, if its necessary to the character of the item. The clincher is that this defense is not applicable if GW can show reasonable product confusion, hence why they are so insistent in this notion in their filing. In determining if there is intended confusion, the court will consider the presence of a trademark and copyright notice, but that doesn't free CH of its burden to avoid confusion. The court will consider how the trade mark is used and the prominence with which it is used; as an example does it say "ELDAR-blank" or "Blank-conversion kit for Eldar".

The way the law is, GW is trying to have it two ways at the same time. It is either a unique artistic work or its a modular model kit composed of unique parts. Look at LEGO, they hold ownership of the design of each individual component they make but because of the intended interchangeability the individual kits and pieces there is no claim to ownership over those collection of protected parts. GW wants that type of protection while simultaneously claiming the final assembled configuration being equivalent to the Mona Lisa, that is uniquely protected from derivation. Philosophically it comes down to where the artistic work is with relation to the intended use. Do we have artistic pieces intended for interchangeable use or do we have something intended to be assembled into the artistic work, where by each assembly is a unique instance. If it is the first, than its perfectly legitimate to produce new components separate from GW; if its the latter than any use beyond how GW wants you to assemble becomes a violation of GW's rights.

GW wants us to believe we're all violators but given special permission to do so and that each. Every time someone supports GW's view, they support the notion that almost all of us are unprosecuted violators of civil law.

While GW would like to continue to bully, belief in GW's position means ignoring the history of the industry with which it is a part of. Just because their prominence has grown that industry doesn't mean it can then ignore the nature of it. If Ford were to market a car for hotroders, it is reasonable to expect those people to do such work on that car; just as if GW wants to sell models in a hobby known for conversion work, with the blatant promotion of converting as an aspect of their hobby, it is reasonable to expect people to do just that and for the industry they are apart of to adapt as it historically has to the trends within it.

Again that's what I thought but couldn't express in that detail.

**wolfshadow**

LOL Epic fail on the GW Lawyers part. :-) They can't even get the name of the people who they want to sue right....

**Polonius**

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Chapterhouse wrote:Unfortunately, unless you have a hell of a good judge, it matters little if you are in the legal right or not. Anyone can sue anyone and hope they cry uncle because of the legal cost.
I'm not an IP lawyer, or even a litigator, but alas they have the crux of the real strategy here.

On issues of substantive law, Janthkin has explained more than I could. The problem is that winning this case could cost tens of thousands of dollars.

And yes, an initial pleading should read like the defendant has done the worst thing imaginable. You're advocating for your client, not trying to be fair.
Everytime I hear about something like this can't believe that this system actually works. Makes me lose faith in humanity.

Well, German law in general, and especially IP, is very different than US law. We're a common law system, which is both adversarial and bound by precedent. It works really well most of the time, this is just an issue where one party may not have the resources to adequately defend itself. The problem isn't that CH is small, the problem is that this isn't a well settled area of the law. Nobody should think that if CH had a free lawyer, they would win this easily.

The uncomfortable truth at the bottom of this case is that nearly every dollar CH makes is, at least indirectly, due to Games Workshop. It's hard to deny that, and the question of splitting dilution of trademark and unfair competition and whatnot from genuine third party add-ons becomes a pretty novel question of fact and law.

This isn't a bullying case. GW has a legit chance of winning on the merits. CH knew they were close to the line, and eventually GW called them on it. I'm hoping they're able to fight it, because it will cost GW a medium sized fortune to push this case forward.

Edit: (stealing this from Janthkin, which is totally acceptable in legal writing, as there are no ideas worth protecting there)-
While I am an attorney, I'm not YOUR attorney. My words are my opinion, and are not offered as legal advice for this or any other situation.

**Wolfun**

I can't say I'm surprised.

CH always claimed a sturdy legal team, but I wonder how much of that was true, especially if they're asking for paypal donations to support them.

GW has always done stuff like this, so I'm not sure why people would be shocked.

Whose in the wrong, though? I'm not sure. CH has a lot of stuff made for 40k, and I know GW frowns on that a lot as it is. But GW does over-react a lot. Eh, I'll wait and see how it plays.

**Duncan_Idaho**

In the end it is a good thing, it drives peoples to other companies.

**Kroothawk**

GW fights the hobby and in the end wants us to pay for the costs of it, weird.

**Steelmage99**

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm.. maybe not the best time to be considering doing female Cadian and ganger Guard male/female torsos and then selling excess to the masses then?

That shouldn't really be a problem providing you do the following;

1. Also do a pair of legs, a head and a pair of arms. In that way they are models in their own right and aren't specifically made for conversions. (just sell them seperately).

2. Name them something original that is not related to GW.

**Ian Sturrock**

If I were Chapterhouse, I would be trying to find early documentary evidence of the pre-Warhammer miniatures "hobby", indicating that conversions -- preferably including minis from more than one manufacturer -- have been part of the hobby since before there was a Games Workshop Hobby. Bonus style points ('cos we all know judges love style) if you can find said evidence in pre-Citadel/GW merger copies of White Dwarf (I am pretty sure that's where I first saw conversions mentioned).

Personally I don't especially care for the look of Chapterhouse's bits, and have never bought them, but I'm more on their side than on GW's, because I don't want GW to win the case, then (once they feel that any dark futuristic bits manufacturer is vulnerable) start looking around for who to sue next.

**Corrode**

Fishboy wrote:the word Eldar has been used for years so how the feth can you copyright that?!?

IIRC trademarks (which is what 'Eldar' is for GW, not copyright) don't work like that. They haven't just trademarked the word 'Eldar' and denied its use to anyone else in any context ever - instead they'll have trademarked 'Eldar, as used to describe a range of products based on elfin creatures in the context of a far-future space-based game universe and associated other media'.

**Delephont**

Well, I'm not from a legal background, and so won't comment on that side of things.....but I'm probably going to shock alot of people now, when I say, I support GW on this.

I had a look at the Chapterhouse website (also wondering why the Herbert estate hasn't sued as well..but thats a different story

) and I see nothing but references to WH40K....sorry, but WTF, I don't agree with GW on a lot of things, but come on, these guys are blatantly riding off another companies success.....

I support companies that strike out alone, MERCS, AE:Bounty, Infinity, and create something orginal, and start things off the hard way....who knows, any one of those companies could be big in the years to come, and they would have deserved their success through hard work, production of quality items, and innovative creation....but looking at Chapterhouse, what have they done? They've used someone elses ideas, artwork and creativity and expect to make a tidy profit...well, why should they?

I'm not saying that GW is innocnet of plagerism, but to be fair, if they stole ideas from Aliens, Frank Herbert, and anyone else, then its up to those parties to sue and defend their own I.P., if they don't then they lose it...simply as that.

GW is simply defending what they have taken years to build up, and I think this kind of action sends out the right signals....if you want to be in this game, then put the work in, be creative and win your market share. Don't come crying to mommy when the big bad corporation takes a jimmy whizz in your coffee, cause you tried to take a whizz in theirs!

**Captain Jack**

Personally I don't especially care for the look of Chapterhouse's bits, and have never bought them, but I'm more on their side than on GW's, because I don't want GW to win the case, then (once they feel that any dark futuristic bits manufacturer is vulnerable) start looking around for who to sue next.

Don't be daft, GW isn't the EVIL EMPIRE that it is being made out to be, games like Malifaux and the rest are perfectly safe. The problem comes when companies like Chapterhouse come along and pretty much copy GW art work and call it their own

I've said this before, guys like Maximini are completly safe as they produce inventive kits that are of their OWN design and aren't paraded as fitting X,Y or Z. They also don't prattle on about their extensive legal checks and boast about twisting the cats tail. My opinions are my own on this, but I will say that I would rather buy fom small manufacturers like Heresy/Hasslefree and Maximini who produce their own inventive minis that can be used in the 40k universe without going to the lengths of directly copying someone elses work. There has been no attempt to disguise what they've been doing so you get what you get. Yes GW might use ideas that have been floating around for some time, but at least they have their designers come up with enough changes so that the idea is completely different from what came before and put their own stamp of style and substance to the sytem or race involved.

Make of it what you will, but how would you like someone making money off your work?

**Delephont**

@ Captain Jack

I think we just said the same thing, within the space of two minutes....means, it must be true!

**Captain Jack**

Delephont wrote:@ Captain Jack

I think we just said the same thing, within the space of two minutes....means, it must be true!

Dagnamnit, get outta my heed

**SilverMK2**

Shame to hear about this - I've loved the look of many of CH's works for quite some time now.

I hope that they not only managed to fend off GW but also manage to grow on the back of this action (hopefully opening a UK production centre so that I can get their fine components without having to pay for international shipping?

).

Also, I hope that Mr Paulson/Paulson Games manage to get themselves clear of this.

**Ian Sturrock**

The Super-Heavy Assault Walker is the key bit, IMO -- sure, it looks like the Tau might have built it, but it could also have been inspired by any or all of the mecha type imagery that inspired the Tau powersuit look.

Even stuff like shoulderpads though... it's not like GW invented power armour. Maxmini do shoulder pads too -- as generic conversion bits, not marketed specifically for GW. Though I agree that it's probably Chapterhouse's provocative use of GW phrases that's roused GW's particular ire on this occasion, GW aren't saying that Chapterhouse just have to alter the phrasing on their website -- they're saying they have to destroy the moulds too.

**Alpharius**

Kanluwen wrote:The term "Lizardman" I doubt can be trademarked.

I remember fighting against Lizardmen in AD&D, well, let's just say a LONG time ago...

**SilverMK2**

There is a legal fund "donate" button at the bottom of their main page now, I have just noticed (for those who were asking if there was one).

Chapterhouse Website wrote:
Donate button link

As many of our fans and customers know, we have recently been forced into a legal battle with a much larger corporate entity. If you would like to donate to this cause, which we believe could have large ramificatiosn for the future of any third-party miniature parts and accessory company, we are currently taking donations through paypal. Any amount is appreciated, you can send donations via paypal to or click the link button above: defensefund@chapterhousestudios.com

**jp400**

Now they have a Donate button.....

Seriously, anyone who donates is (in my opinion) an idiot. You might as well just take the amount you are willing to donate and set it on fire for all the good its going to do.

$20 says this never goes to court and they run with the money.

**SilverMK2**

jp400 wrote:Seriously, anyone who donates is (in my opinion) an idiot. You might as well just take the amount you are willing to donate and set it on fire for all the good its going to do.

While there is some element of truth in that, if you have spare money... why not?

**jp400**

Why not? Cause I can think of a million and one things I would rather spend my money on.... to include setting it on fire before I would even consider giving it to CH.

**wolfshadow**

Meh, I'm not going to donate, but I'll help out by buying some stuff before its no longer available.

**Malika2**

I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I kinda saw something like this coming. It's GW we're talking about here. I really hope that Chapterhouse and the other indie companies being involved here by GW manage to survive and keep doing what they do since they are very talented!

**Grot 6**

Your money would be better appreciated donating it to my Superheavy fund.

It's really not worth getting worked up about. GW pulls this move at least a couple of times a year to keep you all on your toes, and give thier law dog pool something to do to justify a PAYCHECK.

As for Chapterhouse, hey- Good luck, hope things work out.

( My new years revolution is to not kick you in the face and try to be a little civil...)

PM me for your donations to the Mech Stompa fund and the Cadian 8th super heavy fund. Little Groundpounders and Grots are in need of some much needed love and firepower...

So dig deep.

**wolfshadow**

I think the big problem is their extensive use of GW terminology and imagery and names on thier website.

TBH... if they had just called them 'Space Armour shoulder pads' without referring to space marines and GW stuff they would probably still be in the clear.

**mercer**

Looking at the end of the document it's what G.W want which gets me, shocking. They want all products and moulds destroyed, they want all of C.H profits and they want treble damage payment - hellfire!

**Powerguy**

Thats pretty standard though tbh mercer, GW are flexing their muscles so might as well completely shut them down.

While I'm completely against the way GW throws their weight around destroying small hobby developers through legal channels under the cover of copyright/trademark infringement suits, Chapterhouse has been pushing things a bit lately which if nothing else meant they stopped flying under the radar. Many of their more recent products have been more obviously labeled as Space Marine or Eldar conversion kits rather than 'generic sci fi conversion kits'. Not that there is actually anything illegal about that (the aftermarket car industry being a good example, you don't get in trouble for saying that a part is for a specific brand or make) but it certainly would have made GW more likely to notice them. The Tau walker is definitely a problem though, its a complete model rather than a conversion kit (so you are more likely to assume its a GW/Forgeworld model as they make all the Tau stuff) and to be perfectly blunt it is a complete monstrosity which doesn't work from both a fluff and aesthetics point of view so I can actually understand GW going after that for damaging their quality reputation.

I have no real idea how these kind of cases tend to turn out, but I suspect that compromises (i.e Chapterhouse agreeing to destroy the Tau walker thing, cleaning up their site and a few other things) and very unlikely if not impossible. Sadly this means Chapterhouse are very unlikely to stay in business as GW can just bury them with legal fees or force them to stop selling while the case is being resolved (which would probably kill them as well). I'll cross my fingers and hope Chapterhouse come out on top, but I don't have high hopes. At least I had just managed to get an order in before this hit.

**Ouze**

I don't think there really is a side to be on, personally.

Chapterhouse has a fairly compelling argument in that the parts they sell as add-ons can be called what they are without GWS permission; such as with auto parts. Body kits can reference what cars they work with, obviously.

GWS has a fairly decent argument for dilution; additionally US law requires them to defend their marks or lose them.

I wish Chapterhouse the best of luck.

**Irdiumstern**

That walker is a beautiful piece of work, easily exceeding any of the tau vehicles Forgeworld puts out.
Also, shouldn't deviating from canon (ie tau mount their titan class weaponry on flyers, not walkers) make it not an infringement of GW property?

**FM Ninja 048**

I'm not sure that GW can go after the Assault walker, it was a complete custom sculpt and as far as I can tell the only possible thing that infringes is the logo on the painted example.

**Earthbeard**

Captain Jack wrote:Personally I don't especially care for the look of Chapterhouse's bits, and have never bought them, but I'm more on their side than on GW's, because I don't want GW to win the case, then (once they feel that any dark futuristic bits manufacturer is vulnerable) start looking around for who to sue next.

Don't be daft, GW isn't the EVIL EMPIRE that it is being made out to be, games like Malifaux and the rest are perfectly safe. The problem comes when companies like Chapterhouse come along and pretty much copy GW art work and call it their own

I've said this before, guys like Maximini are completly safe as they produce inventive kits that are of their OWN design and aren't paraded as fitting X,Y or Z. They also don't prattle on about their extensive legal checks and boast about twisting the cats tail. My opinions are my own on this, but I will say that I would rather buy fom small manufacturers like Heresy/Hasslefree and Maximini who produce their own inventive minis that can be used in the 40k universe without going to the lengths of directly copying someone elses work. There has been no attempt to disguise what they've been doing so you get what you get. Yes GW might use ideas that have been floating around for some time, but at least they have their designers come up with enough changes so that the idea is completely different from what came before and put their own stamp of style and substance to the sytem or race involved.

Make of it what you will, but how would you like someone making money off your work?

Summed up my thoughts, in a much more friendly and eloquent manner than I was going to.