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Firstly, it is a mercenary group who protect a trade world so have all the races from the trade world plus an original army of humans.

secondly, I didn't mean to write harlequins I meant to say Eldar. Sorry for confusion.

The army is painted to a uniform so they do not look completely random and are all completely done. The kroot are either 1 or 2 to a squad as trackers. Fw's and eldar are made mostly out of guardsman bits only using heads, hands and sometimes legs of their own. I use ork stormboys as rough riders and have my only sentinel as a scout with missiles using the deff copter model.
the army actually does look like an army and is not just a random collection of models. They all have correct basing and weapons so it isnt hard to distinguish them. I would actually much rather
prefer to play in a rogue trader sort of army but my gaming group reckons it would be over powered.

Does that Clarify things? sorry if it doesn't.

It does, but it still makes no sense. The only two of those factions who would allow themselves to be bribed into serving the Imperium are the Kroot and the Orks, and even then if the Imperium caught them, they'd be in trouble very quikcly.

There is absolutely no way Eldar or Tau would be caught serving UNDER the Imperium, and no reason why humans would be in Tau or Eldar armor. You still need damn good fluff before I'd consider it.

ChrisWWII wrote:It does, but it still makes no sense. The only two of those factions who would allow themselves to be bribed into serving the Imperium are the Kroot and the Orks, and even then if the Imperium caught them, they'd be in trouble very quikcly.

There is absolutely no way Eldar or Tau would be caught serving UNDER the Imperium, and no reason why humans would be in Tau or Eldar armor. You still need damn good fluff before I'd consider it.

there's a few stories about Imperial Guard defecting to Tau. So i guess that would cover them atleast - but being as there is no rules for a human in a tau army - They'd be allies if anything, they are simply not allowed.

It is mainly human based with a few tau and eldar that were left behind after campaigns of said armies or deserted or left their planets looking for another form of adventure.
Orks are mercenaries and kroot are trackers as well as mercs. This army is fighting for a trade world a trade world which revolted against the Imperium.

Humans have defected to Tau. One would assume Tau would be willing to do the same.

There are LOTS of mercenary Eldar in the fluff.

His idea isn't that crazy.

Anonymoose wrote:
The army is painted to a uniform so they do not look completely random and are all completely done.

I'll play almost anything if painted uniformly. Let's see some pics.

+1 for pics. Very interested .

Anonymoose wrote:Firstly, it is a mercenary group who protect a trade world so have all the races from the trade world plus an original army of humans.

secondly, I didn't mean to write harlequins I meant to say Eldar. Sorry for confusion.

The army is painted to a uniform so they do not look completely random and are all completely done. The kroot are either 1 or 2 to a squad as trackers. Fw's and eldar are made mostly out of guardsman bits only using heads, hands and sometimes legs of their own. I use ork stormboys as rough riders and have my only sentinel as a scout with missiles using the deff copter model.
the army actually does look like an army and is not just a random collection of models. They all have correct basing and weapons so it isnt hard to distinguish them. I would actually much rather
prefer to play in a rogue trader sort of army but my gaming group reckons it would be over powered.

Does that Clarify things? sorry if it doesn't.

Dude! That sounds cool.
The only problem I'd have would be if you were trying to play each unit with it's rules from it's own codex. As long as everything was "counts as" something in ONE codex, I'd be absolutely fine with it.

@ ChrisWWII
It absolutely makes sense. Give the guy a break:
1) There are examples in the fluff of Orks working as Mercs already. Nothing new there.
2) Tau could easily be helping this world, and it could easily be explained away that they were sent to help because the Tau ruling council (whatever it's called) believe that doing so would advance the "greater good."
3) Eldar do things for their own reasons. They've worked alongside other races in the past. You read the Eisenhorn series? Nuff said.
4) Kroot are Mercs by nature. Settled.

He didn't use the word "bribed." You did.

He's being creative in describing/representing his army and, provided everything is WYSIWYG regarding gear (and uses ONE codex), nobody has a REASONABLE reason to give him crap about it.

Eric

I never complained about Kroot and Orks, I know those are used as mercenaries. When i first read it, he seemed to be saying that the Tau and Eldar were serving under Imperial rule on a regular basis. That doesn't seem very fluffly to me.

I know I was the one who used the word bribed, because, come on, that's what mercenaries are. I may just be a stickler for this, but I never liked eclectic collections of models serving as one codex. I get the idea of Kroot armies, count as Orks, or something, but even now, I don't like the idea of just an eclectic group of minis somehow gathered under one codex. To me, if you want to use eclectice models like that set up a friendly game with someone before hand, and actually use the right codexes. I'd be MORE than happy to fight against an allied human-Eldar-Tau force with Ork and Kroot mercenaries. More than happy, provided I know what's going on before hand.

My problem is, and remains that I don't see how these will all fit under one codex.

anonymoose wrote:I play an ig list but use models from many ranges eg. kroot, fire warriors, harlequins, orks. Is this bad, would you not play against it?
if you would play against it then why not let someone use normal marines for a B.A army? I personally have nothing wrong with
this as long as theye are at least mostly painted

ChrisWWII wrote:Ummm....it probably would be to be honest. It sounds very confusing, and very very weird. Unless:
a) You have DAMN good fluff for why those factions are working together.
b) You're working on getting an IG Army, but have not had time to buy the models yet.

I'd play you....but one of those 2 above better be true, becuase I will be getting annoyed very quickly.

Wait wait wait. You have a problem with his proxying (which by your definition earlier is the same as counts as), but you still think it's fine for you to use grenade launchers as melta guns and lasguns as shotguns? Both are just arbitrary lines drawn in the proverbial sand, and yours is no more correct than his. I think you may not get why people object to your grenade launcher proxy for a meltagun...it's because it's confusing. Even if you tell us initially "grenade laucnhers are meltaguns" just like he told you what his guys are...it's still confusing, and when you glance at a unit with grenade launchers you instinctively think "no big deal, my land raider is safe". And then it's not, because remember, I told you grenade launchers are melta guns.

He justified his with fluff just like you did, and to be honest, it was of more effort/substance than just saying "these grenade launchers fire melta grenades".

Also, on a separate note, I'm noticing from reading that some debate seems to be over whether this is just "okay" or not, and I have to agree with nkelcsch on that you should at least give your opponent the courtesy of asking if they mind. Second, this is somewhat "setting dependent". Providing you ask me if I mind soda cans being drop pods, grenade launchers being meltaguns, lasguns being shotguns, bikes being TWC, a steam tank as a chimera, we can proxy at the shop all day long for you to test something before you buy it. However, if I pay 50-100 dollars to go to a GT or even local tournament that requires wysiwyg and see that attempted, I wouldn't be too happy, and I can't say I've ever attended an event where it's even been attempted, let alone allowed.

MagickalMemories wrote:Dude! That sounds cool.
The only problem I'd have would be if you were trying to play each unit with it's rules from it's own codex. As long as everything was "counts as" something in ONE codex, I'd be absolutely fine with it.

That's a totally valid point of view.

I, on the otherhand, would almost rather he take the rules from each codex. It doesn't sound like he's combining codicies to any major tactical advantage and it might be way easier (though I'd want to see pics of the conversions to make final judgement) to know what you were up against if each unit was statted for what it looks like.

Anonymoose wrote:I use ork stormboys as rough riders and have my only sentinel as a scout with missiles using the deff copter model.
the army actually does look like an army and is not just a random collection of models.

I am sorry, I would have to see pictures... because it sounds awful and exactly like a random collection of models. Jumpacks as cavalry? Jetbikes as walkers? Models that have absolutely nothing to do with the unit it is representing? Sounds confusing and burdensome to your opponent who has to constantly check his decoder ring to know what he is playing against.

Especially since orks have a very logical cavalry option in boarboyz in their lore and same with light walkers... Hell, even looted imperial stuff makes more sense. I would even say a deffkopta makes a better rough rider than a stormboy does. I have seen some neat conversions of deffkoptas into leg-based walkers which could have a lance or weapon on the front.

I have seen great Orks to Iguard counts as and they were done with care and made sense... I am not full of hope based upon your descriptions and they sound like proxies and exactly like a collection of random models.

What's wrong with it? Let me paint you a little picture:

You're a busy guy, so you can only reliably get in some games around one weekend of every month. You show up to the game store, and you play a game or two against your friend's latest army. Sure, his army is unpainted, but it's brand new, and he wants to try it out, and you want to try fighting it. You have fun, and you spend your free time during the rest of the month changing you list and painting new models to prepare to face his new army again next month, eagerly anticipating your rematch, where you can use what you learned in battle the first time. When another month finally comes around, and you go to the store, ready to face his army from last month, which he will surely have fine-tuned and gained experience with, you find that he has a brand new army, once again unpainted, ready for another battle. He has already sold off last month's army, and you're sure he will do the same this time. Now doesn't this seem like a frustrating situation?

Or worse... and more usual... same unpainted army with new rules.

For me, the difference between Proxy and Counts-As is effort.
In my mind, proxy-ing is: using models (or coke cans) you hae to represent models you don't have, because you either haven't bought them yet, or are not intending on buying them.

Counts as is: using a converted army, or army painted to a specific colour scheme, to represent another army.

Most people I see using counts-as are doing so with good intentions. They are generally well-converted, have a decent storyline, or well painted. A tau auxiliary force with IG models used as fire warriors? Great, when these auxiliaries have Tau sept symbols and are painted to match the crisis suits. I have no problem with a good counts-as army.

Proxied models have different degrees also. There is:
1) Trying out a new army build, just to see if it works; you might want to see if a 3-melta vet squad is good but only have 2 meltas and a plasma. Proxy the plasma dude as a melta dude for a few games to try it out. But once you've tried it out and decided thats what you want, you should probably buy another melta.
2) Trying out an entirely new unit that isn't released yet/you haven't finished buying/painting. Don't have a squad of Sanguinary Guard? Swell, use some Swooping Hawks, or Necrons, whatever floats your boat. But again, replace them as soon as you can.
3) Trying out a new army. Like number 2, but replace it even quicker. This seems to be what the fuss is about in this thread.


For those people defending codex hopping... would it be ok if i put my Tau on the table and said 'ok, i'm using the space wolf rules here'. Why is this any different than putting blood angels down and pretending they are space wolves?
If you really want to codex hop, just use some vanilla marine models and paint them in a non codex scheme...

I am a purest in all senses and that is what has been beaten into my head for 40k, WYSIWYG is the only word in my vocab for units, but counts as, as long as its not hanice, or otherworldly is ok, just for certain things, no proxying vanilla marines for gk sms because as far as I'm concerned you have no passion for the dex your playing with, at least buy the models. I saw a pitiful excuse for a proxy and counts as army today and I was apaled. The use of vanilla csms as khorne berserkers, chaos fantasy cav for wolf riders and gold fish boxes for defilers. Come on people this is insanity. Also possessed as wolf guard, and csms for sw long fangs. I may have been playing for only a short period, but I am working for an army that is on the board, not imagined into existence with crappy fillers.

mekbadzappa wrote:I am a purest in all senses and that is what has been beaten into my head for 40k, WYSIWYG is the only word in my vocab for units, but counts as, as long as its not hanice, or otherworldly is ok, just for certain things, no proxying vanilla marines for gk sms because as far as I'm concerned you have no passion for the dex your playing with, at least buy the models. I saw a pitiful excuse for a proxy and counts as army today and I was aa

If some attempt is made, I let it pass.

For instance, a player buying GK weapons and heraldy to equip to Termies and vanilla GKs deserves some consideration (along with if they actually painted silver!).

If a guy buys a new army each week or month or whatever that is his business (and money). If the armies are WYSIWYG then I dont see the problem other than having to adjust your tactics to deal with new threats. If your problem is that the armies are never painted, then that is a seperate issue/thread.

For those people defending codex hopping... would it be ok if i put my Tau on the table and said 'ok, i'm using the space wolf rules here'. Why is this any different than putting blood angels down and pretending they are space wolves?
If you really want to codex hop, just use some vanilla marine models and paint them in a non codex scheme...

The difference is WYSIWYG. If it isnt WYSIWYG then it is proxying and thats up to your opponent. When paint scheme is part of WYSIWYG then I will concede that Red SW is the same thing as Tau SW.

Actually... Tau are commies who are Reds.... Hmmm

fixed my post, I'm on my phone, its buggy.

targetawg wrote:
Wait wait wait. You have a problem with his proxying (which by your definition earlier is the same as counts as), but you still think it's fine for you to use grenade launchers as melta guns and lasguns as shotguns? Both are just arbitrary lines drawn in the proverbial sand, and yours is no more correct than his. I think you may not get why people object to your grenade launcher proxy for a meltagun...it's because it's confusing. Even if you tell us initially "grenade laucnhers are meltaguns" just like he told you what his guys are...it's still confusing, and when you glance at a unit with grenade launchers you instinctively think "no big deal, my land raider is safe". And then it's not, because remember, I told you grenade launchers are melta guns.

Yes. Yes I do have a problem. And they are just arbitrary lines in the sand, and I agree with you on that. My arbitrary line in the sand is passed when someone throws an eclectic group of models down onto the table, and then expects you to remember that his entire army is proxied in some way. I stand by what I said, that I do not like this idea, and I am waiting for damn good fluff or pictures to appear before I say I'm ok with it.

I would also repoint out that I never said that proxying = counts as, I jsut said that the difference was in INTENT, not any strange rules about the model having rules or whatnot. He would be count as-ing, as he intends this army to be permanent. If it was only temporary while he buys more models, THEN its count as.

As to the final point, I still hold that only an idiot would be unable to remember somethng simple like 'all the grenade launchers all melta guns' or 'those lasguns are shotguns'. It's different when it's an entire army of having to remember 'Ok, the jetpacks are calvary...the Orks are stormtroopers...the Tau are....WTF are the Tau again?'. At least it's different according to my arbitrary line in the sand.

He justified his with fluff just like you did, and to be honest, it was of more effort/substance than just saying "these grenade launchers fire melta grenades".

In your opinion.

micahaphone wrote:What's wrong with it? Let me paint you a little picture:

You're a busy guy, so you can only reliably get in some games around one weekend of every month. You show up to the game store, and you play a game or two against your friend's latest army. Sure, his army is unpainted, but it's brand new, and he wants to try it out, and you want to try fighting it. You have fun, and you spend your free time during the rest of the month changing you list and painting new models to prepare to face his new army again next month, eagerly anticipating your rematch, where you can use what you learned in battle the first time. When another month finally comes around, and you go to the store, ready to face his army from last month, which he will surely have fine-tuned and gained experience with, you find that he has a brand new army, once again unpainted, ready for another battle. He has already sold off last month's army, and you're sure he will do the same this time. Now doesn't this seem like a frustrating situation?

No.
Not at all.
My friend is spending his money in a manner that pleases him.
I am, in fact, elated for him that he's found another army that he thinks he will like, apparently, more than the last one.

It seems to me - and I apologize in advance for the "loaded" terms I'm about to use. I mean NO insult by them but cannot think of better terms to describe this as accurately - that there are gamers out there with obviously elitist leanings who see to think less of people who don't game the right way.
"I spent all this time painting my army and tweaking my list, so you should do that, too."
Why? Why should I have to do things I don't want to to enhance your experience? Don't want to play against an unpainted army? Fine. Don't. At the same time, however, you shouldn't attempt to belittle the person whose army is unpainted. Perhaps they simply do not enjoy painting? The games are expensive enough that many people can't afford the official models, much less afford $5 a piece to have them painted.
This game is a social game. It's about getting together with one or more other people and having fun. If you (generic "you") can't have fun playing the game because the other guy's using gray and silver toys, instead of painted, colored ones, then I genuinely feel bad for you. I can have just as much fun against a 100% proxied army as I can against a 100% Golden Demon winning pro-painted one. For me, it's all about the individual I'm playing against and how much fun he is to socialize with.


Please, keep in mind that I'm strictly referring to "friendly" games. TO's have their own rules and, as such, they should be obeyed.

Regarding your underlined text above:
Honestly, this makes it sound like you're angry that you built a list to face off against one force, but are upset that he didn't bring it.


Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mekbadzappa wrote:I am a purest in all senses and that is what has been beaten into my head for 40k, WYSIWYG is the only word in my vocab for units, but counts as, as long as its not hanice, or otherworldly is ok, just for certain things, no proxying vanilla marines for gk sms because as far as I'm concerned you have no passion for the dex your playing with, at least buy the models. I saw a pitiful excuse for a proxy and counts as army today and I was apaled. The use of vanilla csms as khorne berserkers, chaos fantasy cav for wolf riders and gold fish boxes for defilers. Come on people this is insanity. Also possessed as wolf guard, and csms for sw long fangs. I may have been playing for only a short period, but I am working for an army that is on the board, not imagined into existence with crappy fillers.

The true question for me, though, is...

Were the two people playing the game having fun??

It seems to me that too often, in our haste to condemn others for not having fun the same way we do, we forget that their fun (in this case, at least) does not impact -or, at least, doesn't NEED TO impact- our own ability to do so.

Eric

Eilif wrote:

Anonymoose wrote:I play an ig list but use models from many ranges eg. kroot, fire warriors, harlequins, orks. Is this bad, would you not play against it?
if you would play against it then why not let someone use normal marines for a B.A army? I personally have nothing wrong with
this as long as theye are at least mostly painted

Interesting first post...

I'd play against it.
Once.
After that, I'd probably avoid it or suggest that we play smaller games with just one of your factions.

I'm pretty flexible, and could proably see Kroot and Fire Warriors incorporated into an IG force, and I'd be fine with other brands of human troopers (EM4, Wargames factory, etc) if there was some consistency with the proxying of weapons as IG. However,I'd probably draw the line at Harlequin's and orks. I'd rather play an army of mixed factions where each faction was using it's real rules (kind of old school RT'ish) than play a mixed army where all the units are pretending to be something they aren't.

I don't play that often, but when I do, it's as much for the specatcle of painted armis as it is for the 40k game. This may come across as a bit harsh, but from my point of view the example you cite is not an army, it's a random collection of figs and that's just not fun to play against.

I find this insteresting, not having a dig but I find it strange that fluff not being 100% right is enough to not want a to play. I would have thought that different takes on how the 40k universe is can make for an interesting game. I mean yes the way it is written some forces might not team up with others but in another universe they might. but in game terms it has no real bearing if they are using a lagit codex. I can't see how it is going to get in the way of a game. I mean its allready a fictional universe why not expand on that? or just imigine the models are correct if it doesnt sit right for you.

as I say each to their own I just find that an intersting sentinment.

I for example don't like the official fluff and instead have my own idea of how the 40k universe looks and feels, but my thoughts on it are personal and are never raised when i'm playing the game, when thats happeing its all about playing the game really. focusing on movment and tactics etc.

MagickalMemories wrote:It seems to me - and I apologize in advance for the "loaded" terms I'm about to use. I mean NO insult by them but cannot think of better terms to describe this as accurately - that there are gamers out there with obviously elitist leanings who see to think less of people who don't game the right way.
"I spent all this time painting my army and tweaking my list, so you should do that, too."
Why? Why should I have to do things I don't want to to enhance your experience? Don't want to play against an unpainted army? Fine. Don't.

I totally agree and that is a very mature way to handle it... just accept people want different things and find someone else to play, but in my experience that is not how it goes down... Instead of accepting some people would rather find an opponent who painted their models, the person who declines the game is usually viciously attacked in a slew of insults, namecalling, demands about gamers rights and excuses on how much more valuable their personal time is than yours which justifies playing them.

People get really pissed when you don't want to play them. And it usually starts by preemptive insults like 'I feel sorry for people who are not mentally adept to handle proxies... maybe if they were smarter, they could game at our high level as we can game against anything.'

I find Proxies highly distracting and game impacting, and often because the player who is using the proxies has just as much trouble if not more than me distinguishing or remembering. I don't like policing my opponent for 2 hours because the can't keep things straight. I find unpainted models incredibly boring as I enjoy talking 'shop' with my opponent when it comes to learning modeling/painting techniques. I usually choose to game with like-minded gamers and go to events which have what I am looking for and have no problem if people who enjoy unpainted/proxies play that way...

Just don't call me names when I choose to sit at the paint table for 2 hours instead of playing you, just accept people enjoy different things.

I also dislike how "friendly" is code for no standards... I mean who can ever disagree with 'friendly' games because if you disagree you are unfriendly right? A friendly game is when both players agree and have a good time. I don't suggest anyone should do something they don't enjoy to make one person happy in the name of appeasing the 'friendly' gamers (which sometimes are anything but friendly)

Coyotebreaks wrote:

Eilif wrote:
I'm pretty flexible, and could proably see Kroot and Fire Warriors incorporated into an IG force, and I'd be fine with other brands of human troopers (EM4, Wargames factory, etc) if there was some consistency with the proxying of weapons as IG. However,I'd probably draw the line at Harlequin's and orks. I'd rather play an army of mixed factions where each faction was using it's real rules (kind of old school RT'ish) than play a mixed army where all the units are pretending to be something they aren't.

I don't play that often, but when I do, it's as much for the specatcle of painted armis as it is for the 40k game. This may come across as a bit harsh, but from my point of view the example you cite is not an army, it's a random collection of figs and that's just not fun to play against.

I find this insteresting, not having a dig but I find it strange that fluff not being 100% right is enough to not want a to play....

...I would have thought that different takes on how the 40k universe is can make for an interesting game...

...in game terms it has no real bearing if they are using a lagit codex. I can't see how it is going to get in the way of a game...

...as I say each to their own I just find that an intersting sentinment.

I for example don't like the official fluff ....

As to your points -divyed up above for summary- I think we agree more than you realize.

I do tend to like stay within at least the wider bounds of 40k fluff, but if you will notice, I do say that I'd actually prefer to play against a mixed army if it used the stats of the models (despite it requiring the mixing of codicies) as it would have a fun RT'ish feeling to it.

My issue with Annonymoose's army was that at a certain point it becomes very difficult to keep track of all the proxies involved (unless they are all at least armed with WYSIWYG weaopns) and that it would perhaps be easier and more fun just to use the actual stats for the figures rather than trying to shoehorn them into a single codex. This would of course get you in trouble with those who find codex mixing unacceptable, but those folks will already be displeased to see such a random -despite his offered fluff justification, it really seems random to me- collection of miniatures on the table. Thus, codex mixing seems a good solution to me as games are almost always more fun when you can see clearly what forces your opponent is fielding.

Still, it's all a fairly moot point as Annonymoose has not posted any pics of this army and as such we have no way to judge just how WYSIWYG and uniformly painted/converted it is or isn't.

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:It seems to me - and I apologize in advance for the "loaded" terms I'm about to use. I mean NO insult by them but cannot think of better terms to describe this as accurately - that there are gamers out there with obviously elitist leanings who see to think less of people who don't game the right way.
"I spent all this time painting my army and tweaking my list, so you should do that, too."
Why? Why should I have to do things I don't want to to enhance your experience? Don't want to play against an unpainted army? Fine. Don't.

I totally agree and that is a very mature way to handle it... just accept people want different things and find someone else to play, but in my experience that is not how it goes down... Instead of accepting some people would rather find an opponent who painted their models, the person who declines the game is usually viciously attacked in a slew of insults, namecalling, demands about gamers rights and excuses on how much more valuable their personal time is than yours which justifies playing them.

People get really pissed when you don't want to play them. And it usually starts by preemptive insults like 'I feel sorry for people who are not mentally adept to handle proxies... maybe if they were smarter, they could game at our high level as we can game against anything.'

I find Proxies highly distracting and game impacting, and often because the player who is using the proxies has just as much trouble if not more than me distinguishing or remembering. I don't like policing my opponent for 2 hours because the can't keep things straight. I find unpainted models incredibly boring as I enjoy talking 'shop' with my opponent when it comes to learning modeling/painting techniques. I usually choose to game with like-minded gamers and go to events which have what I am looking for and have no problem if people who enjoy unpainted/proxies play that way...

Just don't call me names when I choose to sit at the paint table for 2 hours instead of playing you, just accept people enjoy different things.

I also dislike how "friendly" is code for no standards... I mean who can ever disagree with 'friendly' games because if you disagree you are unfriendly right? A friendly game is when both players agree and have a good time. I don't suggest anyone should do something they don't enjoy to make one person happy in the name of appeasing the 'friendly' gamers (which sometimes are anything but friendly)

See, your example is where i switch gears entirely.
While I DO believe it's unfortunate that you'd choose not to play him for any of those reasons (the tau as IG in merc force, unpainted, etc), it's totally withing your rights (obviously) to do so. Anyone who pulled the crap you're talking about would see me turn on them immediately.
Then again, anyone who's familiar with me understands my "live and let live" type of leanings and won't be surprised by it.

I disagree about proxies being distracting, but I definitely agree that they're something that can be confusing. In fact, our group's been dealing with that since the GK codex has come out... While the one guy is waiting for his GK's to arrive from the painter, he's proxying a LOT of stuff. The only things not being proxied are halberd termies, Storm Ravens and vehicles. He's doing it sensibly (Falchions are L. Claws, P-Fists are D. Hammers, etc), but we do all still find ourselves "double checking" regularly.


FWIW, for me, "friendly" is definitely a game where both players agree and have a good time (handling rules disputes amicably, being willing to make concessions to each other, etc.) and definitely not one in which you use the term to bully the other side into giving you what you want. Friendly should govern your OWN actions in a friendly game and not your expectations of your opponent.

Note that, in the previous point, "your" was generic and not directed at any one person.

Eric

It is funny how this topic has morphed from the idea of codex hopping to proxying and unpainted armies.

Not really.
It all kind of goes hand in hand, really.
People who complain tend to have a lot to complain about.

Gamers who complain about things like codex hopping tend to have the same complaints... and verbalize them.

It's a kind of natural progression, in actuality.

Eric

ChrisWWII wrote:
As to the final point, I still hold that only an idiot would be unable to remember somethng simple like 'all the grenade launchers all melta guns' or 'those lasguns are shotguns'. It's different when it's an entire army of having to remember 'Ok, the jetpacks are calvary...the Orks are stormtroopers...the Tau are....WTF are the Tau again?'. At least it's different according to my arbitrary line in the sand.

Try not to sling insults just because someone doesn't like your idea. It's only different in your opinion as you said. Meaning that you should accept that other people have different viewpoints. If you then accept that other people have different viewpoints, you should be able to understand why people don't like your idea (because they don't draw the line in the sand at the same place as you, or him).

If you expect people to respect your views, you need to respect theirs.

I'm not insulting anyone. I'm just making the general statement that anyone can not remember that grenade launchers = melta guns is an idiot. I'm fairly sure most people would agree that one proxy/count as explained at the very start of the game, should be a thing most gamers are expected to remember. I mean, everyone remember what a melta gun looks like, it's not too hard to remember one detail.

I accepted long ago that the differences here are deeply ingrained, and argument should cease. You were the one who brought it back to the forefront by calling me a hypocrite for disliking the Tau-Eldar-IG-Ork mixed force.

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm not insulting anyone. I'm just making the general statement that anyone can not remember that grenade launchers = melta guns is an idiot. I'm fairly sure most people would agree that one proxy/count as explained at the very start of the game, should be a thing most gamers are expected to remember. I mean, everyone remember what a melta gun looks like, it's not too hard to remember one detail.

I accepted long ago that the differences here are deeply ingrained, and argument should cease. You were the one who brought it back to the forefront by calling me a hypocrite for disliking the Tau-Eldar-IG-Ork mixed force.

Because you spent several pages discussing how your case was different, and acceptable, and anyone who could not remember your "counts as" was an idiot. Yet once a fellow gamer came up with a situation, albeit a bit more extreme, of doing counts as, you had a problem with it. I did not call you a hypocrite, however, I will say your stance on the issue is quite hypocritical. (Theres a difference, I don't define you as a hypocrite, but I think their is a fair amount of hypocrisy in that stance on this one issue).

Why are gamers expected to remember it? I don't think they are expected to remember anything other than meltagun = meltagun, because that is the rules of the game system you are both playing, it's your common ground. Anything else is something you expect them to remember, which is quite a different thing, and is something you should be willing to ask prior to a game, and also willing to graciously accept a "no thanks" if it bothers the person. And if I'm remembering correctly, it wasn't just meltaguns, wasn't it lasguns = shotguns as well? Essentially none of your models are armed with the "correct" (according to gw) weapons.

As I said in an earlier post, if this was something in a friendly shop game, or you wanted to use it while you converted, or some other extenuating/temporary circumstance, I'd be fine with it. But if you tried to take this to a paid event with rules, I think therein lies the problem. Expecting the TO/tournament system to change/allow your army because you don't want to convert is unreasonable, in my opinion. I took this as your intent when you discussed your army, that you planned on "this is my army, this is how it is, and I'm not converting" and you expected it to be okay at tournaments and the like.