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What are people's feeling about codex hopping? In trying to avoid Proxy/counts as arguments, so for the sake of this thread I'm specifically refering to Space Marine (edit: and Chaos Space Marine) armies where the army is mostly WYSIWYG and the owner uses codicies other than what is reflected in the army's paintjob. DA as wolves, Ultras as BA, etc, etc.

I've got a fully painted BA army from way-back, and I recognize that codex creep has made them pretty powerfull these days. However, I've no problem at all with folks using the BA codex with their marine armies, regardless of color as long as they are all (or nearly all) WYSIWYG. Why should they be penalized because their army of choice hasn't been uber'fied recently?

As long as it is mostly WSYWIG at least then fine I say, just no 'that marine represents a necron lord' or anything like that.

As long as it is WYSIWYG.

This means codex hopping to GK is impossible, and codex hopping to armies with non-codex astartes units is hard.

Technicaly I think that's even encouraged in the rules themselves, so long as everything is clear and wysiwyg. The BA codex, for example, isn't just for Blood Angels. It also covers all their successor chapters (It even has some successor chapter characters that can be used with BA characters).

You could just say "These are the Blood Angels. If you where wondering why they look like Ultramarines, it is because all space marines wish they could be Ultramarines, so they painted themselves to look just like them"

On the same note, many people use the BA codex to represent pre heresy World Eaters. Totaly acceptable.

Edit: spelling

If I ever got back into 40k I would make an army that was a cross between Space Wolves and Blood Angles so that I could use either codex.

Eilif wrote:Why should they be penalized because their army of choice hasn't been uber'fied recently?

Because waiting for replacements for thirteen year old metal basic troops and an 8 year old codex makes me unsympathetic to anyone whose army gets twice as many plastic kits as everyone else, whose codex is less than three years old, and still whines about being left behind.

Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

A couple of reasons that I've seen locally:

-The armies end up not being WYSIWYG. Each codex has some unique pieces in them and rather than properly model the army, you end up with proxies. Personally, I'm not a fan of having 7 out of 15 Missile Launchers being proxied or playing stump the chump with which model has an Inferno Pistol.

-In conjunction to the above, it seems to create a lot of unfinished armies. As an opponent, I'm now facing off against a half painted or unpainted mass of models and left to figure out what is what as well as proxying issues.

-As these armies are not cheap, I fully appreciate folks wanting to try out armies before investing hundreds of dollars into a new army. However, there is also a lot of 'flavor of the month' players who are trying to win with whatever the latest and greatest seems to be. So, rather than getting good with an army, they hop from codex to codex, use multiple proxies and have a half/unpainted army and tell their opponent how uber their army is. Then, they get beat and suddenly they're off to the next uber 'flavor of the month' codex. Or, if they do happen to win, you have to listen to just how uber their army is as they shove their army into a shoebox.

-All in all, this is not a lot of fun to play against.


Of note, there is some parody mixed in and names have been avoided to protect the innocent(offenders).

Sarigar wrote:Of note, there is some parody mixed in and names have been avoided to protect the innocent(offenders).

So the guilty!? hahaha

Totally agree. The worst part about it is the flavor of the monthness. Have some damn pride. Paint your models and be proud of them for what they are. I understand it's just a game and it's just little plastic spacemen, but show a little loyalty to the side you picked.

A space marine captain is not an emperors champion is not slap a jump pack on it and now its a blood angel. Play what you paint, and for the love of god paint.

My favorite new line to say, with the recent GK release is, "Well at least these marines are the right color" when staring at the grey plastic nightmare layed before me.

Black primer I refer to as "Black Crusade"

and of course the classic "Shouldn't your white scars be on bikes?" to marines primed white.

I think people who codex hop believe they can find a winning formula in uber lists rather than by learning how to play their own codex better.

Whilst there is a power discrepancy between codexes, I don't think the margin between the best and worst SM books is more than 10%.

A player who knows his army inside out may be better able to compensate for such a margin, especially when playing in "all comer" environments.

Sarigar wrote:

-In conjunction to the above, it seems to create a lot of unfinished armies. As an opponent, I'm now facing off against a half painted or unpainted mass of models and left to figure out what is what as well as proxying issues.

.

This is the only problem I have with it really. Only a couple of guys I know whose marines became SW, and then became BA. Unpainted and even partially unassembled armies in both cases. I dunno, I mean it's not like I have a real problem with it in principle (in the same way I don't really mind playing unpainted armies). But, given the choice (and I will always say this) I much prefer playing an army that looks like it has had more than 10 minutes effort put into it, rather than models being unceremoniously dumped into CC ("hey, just because you don't care about your own models, doesn't mean I don't care about mine" as they get shovelled into base to base contact..) and blu-tacked arms with proxied weapons falling off.

I think like anything, if people can see you have put the effort in (with WYSIWYG) and realise that the onus is on them to make sure their opponent is aware of what is what, then people wouldn't have a problem with it. But, so often (at least from my experience) people who codex hop just don't make that effort.

Playing with a buddy in a basement? Up to your opponent and you.

Doing a test of a new list before you buy it a couple of times, up to your opponent and you.

In a tournament? Forget it. Your opponent may be nice enough not to complain to your face, but he's going to have more trouble following the game. I don't allow them in my tournaments.

And please note that I make a big distinction between list swapping, proxy, and 'counts as'.

If someone has a nicely painted and converted army, where a good amount of work has been put into the modeling and painting to portray a theme, then it usually gets a thumbs up. An IG army using grots and some orky bits is fine. Pre-Heresy chaos lists that use a SW or BA codex build are another example. I think Goatboy has one he did up on BOLS or his website. I've seen a couple genestealer cults using IG rules, and a 'space vermin' army modeled from Eldar and Skaven bits, run as Eldar.

I generally ask the question: Was this concieved as a modeling and painting project, or was it just an army someone already owned and wants to use new rules?

Interesting points all around.

As to unpainted figs, that's a whole separate ballgame. I only play painted units and tend to avoid playing against unpainted armies.

However, it seems that alot of folks have experineced codex hoppers who completely fail in the painting/modeling department. Even though that's a separate issue, I can definitely see how someone who was mostly focused on the game and not modeling might be more apt to codex hop and less likely to have a painted army.

For my purposes, as long as it's painted and mostly WYSIWYG, I don't care which rules you use.
If it's not painted and not close to WYSIWYG, you can read whatever codex you want, because I won't be playing you.

Ugh my FLGS has a few people like this and TBH it just sucks all of the fun out of the game, watching as your opponent dumps his mishmash of second hand vanilla SM's onto the table then proceeds to declare that they are going to be playing SW, BA, or GK. I dont tolerate this kind of crap, when I field my armies I make sure everything is WYSIWYG. I absolutely despise flavor of the month players, specially when there is a new SM based release since those types of players will just slap together what ever power armored models and SM vehicles they have and the outlandish proxies begin.

I dont do flavor of the month but I do jump around to different army every week. i have 6 40k armies and I play wysiwg for all of them so I dont know if it is quite the same as what you all are saying as only 2 are SM's and that is blood angels, and my CSM.
I switch armies to mix it up because we usually have the same crowd at most tournaments and if I play the same army every-time so it tends to get a little redundant.
I know what you all are talking about though I have seen the million proxies in one army and it does kind of take away from the game. I am an easy going player though and will probably always allow it unless I think the guy is a TFG.

Because dilettantism is the mark of the amateur.

Pick something and stick to it. You'll never get better at something unless you persevere with it.

Unless you are a kitten, or teenager, in which case, hopping from one thing to another like a flea with ADHD is normal (still annoying, but sadly normal).

Still, I pick my armies by their look, not their rules, and have been known to use units purely because of how badass they look (regardless of whether such badass-ness translates to the tabletop).

Cottonjaw wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Of note, there is some parody mixed in and names have been avoided to protect the innocent(offenders).

So the guilty!? hahaha

Totally agree. The worst part about it is the flavor of the monthness. Have some damn pride. Paint your models and be proud of them for what they are. I understand it's just a game and it's just little plastic spacemen, but show a little loyalty to the side you picked.

A space marine captain is not an emperors champion is not slap a jump pack on it and now its a blood angel. Play what you paint, and for the love of god paint.

My favorite new line to say, with the recent GK release is, "Well at least these marines are the right color" when staring at the grey plastic nightmare layed before me.

Black primer I refer to as "Black Crusade"

and of course the classic "Shouldn't your white scars be on bikes?" to marines primed white.

What's with all these people feeling like they deserve a Purple Heart because they stuck with a miserable army?

The idea of assigning some sort of moral judgement to someone playing a new army when it comes out is absurd.

And really, if I've got the option of playing a rattlecan primer-colored army, or something that looks like it was fingerpainted by a 7-year old (read: the majority of FLGS armies) I'm really not going to split hairs. You don't get an "A" for effort.

And if you're trying to pass judgement on someone at an FLGS by making stupid puns (probably with the associated fake chuckle) you're TFG, and you don't realize it.

chromedog wrote:Because dilettantism is the mark of the amateur.

Pick something and stick to it. You'll never get better at something unless you persevere with it.

Unless you are a kitten, or teenager, in which case, hopping from one thing to another like a flea with ADHD is normal (still annoying, but sadly normal).

Still, I pick my armies by their look, not their rules, and have been known to use units purely because of how badass they look (regardless of whether such badass-ness translates to the tabletop).

lol two of my newest armies are tau and necrons. Im not even interested in the GK spam. I switch armies also for the challenge. I have almost stopped playing with my CSM entirely because they are too easy to win with imho.

My armies are:
SM
DH (now GK).
IG
Eldar

I've had the SM and Eldar the longest. SM have always been made using the 'Ultramarines" list/codex (for upgrade safety. I lost fewer options this way when things changed). Eldar have only ever used the "core" list (even if I do have enough units to do most of the variants).

The DH/GK have been going since the 3rd ed codex came out (I had 5 GKT from RT days that were 'allied' to my SM in 2nd ed). I've been playing and losing with them for years. Now it's time for some payback.

Because there's a perception that the newest army is "better" and that people hopping from book to book are just doing it to win. It also means their fluff/paintscheme will also be pretty diluted.

mikhaila wrote:or was it just an army someone already owned and wants to use new rules?

And as long as the army is WYSIWYG, that is wrong why? Because somebody got more enjoyment out of their army without buying a new one that consists of many of the same models?

I found myself with three space marine armies when I got a bunch of space wolves from a friend. I quickly realized how incredibly silly it was to buy several of the same unit just to paint them in different colors, so I now have one space marine army that can be them all. (not including GK or CSM). It has a coherent paint scheme, it is fully WYSIWYG and it even has some fluff, but it is built to take advantage of the fact that there are 5 different rulesets for the same miniatures, so I guess that means I wouldn't be able to play it at your tourney?

chromedog wrote:Because dilettantism is the mark of the amateur.

Pick something and stick to it. You'll never get better at something unless you persevere with it.

So why do you have more than one army?

Change is a good thing in warhammer. Most people have a group of people they play more than others, it is boring for your opponents if you always play the same list and the same codex. I love it when my gaming partners test new armies and codexes.

MikeMcSomething wrote:And if you're trying to pass judgement on someone at an FLGS by making stupid puns (probably with the associated fake chuckle) you're TFG, and you don't realize it.

+1

Because I like the models in 4 different armies.
I've belonged to 7 different clubs over the years, and all of them had ONE major army that everyone had, so I started an army that none of them had, or used one that I already had that none of them had - because marines on marines every single game was more tedious than watching most anime OR lord of the rings.

Playing with the same army models ALL the time gets boring.
Playing with the same army models as blood angels one week then space wolves the next and spiky-rar! marines the next is just as boring.

Eilif wrote:What are people's feeling about codex hopping? In trying to avoid Proxy/counts as arguments, so for the sake of this thread I'm specifically refering to Space Marine (edit: and Chaos Space Marine) armies where the army is mostly WYSIWYG and the owner uses codicies other than what is reflected in the army's paintjob. DA as wolves, Ultras as BA, etc, etc.

I've got a fully painted BA army from way-back, and I recognize that codex creep has made them pretty powerfull these days. However, I've no problem at all with folks using the BA codex with their marine armies, regardless of color as long as they are all (or nearly all) WYSIWYG. Why should they be penalized because their army of choice hasn't been uber'fied recently?

I have absolutely no problem with it. I've known multiple players with DIY armies and those would occasionally change. Often players would change with a new codex, or just to do something different. My Valhallans have been Steel legion, guard, armored company, drop troops, and renegade chaos as part of my beloved LATD.

Really don't like people codex-hopping just so they have use what they think are the best rules. It's just a sign of someone being desperate to win games rather than make an army.

This is why I'm suspicious of some unpainted Marine armies in particular - "It's Ultramarines this week, oh now they're Space Wolves, now they're Blood Angels, can I use them as Grey Knights today? I just got their new codex and want to teleport my blood angels land raider"

You should be able to identify almost all armies just by looking at them, unless it's some rare case of someone running a Squats counts-as IG list in which case you'll need an explanation as what Codex you are using and what models represent what.

I think it's the younger players doing more of this sort of thing, because there's the somewhat childish need to see winning as the be-all and end-all of everything and they are also the ones more easily suckered each month by GW's crude advertising with bright colours and saying "this is the BEST and you need this to WIN" on all their latest releases.

Yawn.

I started with Black Templars. Almost of my Space Marines are painted as Black Templars (With a small, but growing Crimson Fist army). After playing them for 2 years, I needed a break and switched to Codex Space Marines for a few months. I even added a few parts to my army that Black Templars don't get: Whirlwinds, Land Raider Redeemer, namely. I painted them as Templars.

I even added 2 super heavies and an IG "Plasma Flinger" Lemun Russ, all painted as Templars, for Apoc games.

I don't consider myself a Flavor of the Month guy. Just an 'I'm bored with Templars right now but don't want to drop $600 on another army" guy. However, does that make me better than a "Flavor of the Month" guy? No. Does that make a guy that would refuse to play his Templars as anything but Templars better than me? No.

If someone wants to play their space wolves as Blood Angels, I would give it a go. Especially if it was a friend. I'd need to be very clear on what was what, but I would ask that they make reasonable substitutions. "This wolf rider is a scout and this wolf rider is a Land Speeder" would not work for me. But that would be the same for any proxy situation. Get it close, please. That's all I really ask.

Just my 2 cents.

I think at the end of the day it is just a game. An incredibly fun one, but just a game. People will choose to play it differently at times. One way is not superior or inferior to any other way. An elitist attitude because you have paint on your army men is not founded well. Just as an elitist attitude because you are playing the newest army is not founded well. Play this game for you and have fun with it.

In casual games as long as it is clearly determined before hand what is the harm really? In a tournament setting it is different. People have come to play a game competitively agreeing to a set of rules before hand. All should conform to these rules, as that were agreed to.

Play the game so that you have fun with it. What ever that may be. If you insist on only playing painted armies ect. That is your decision. Conversely if someone wants to say that their space wolves are blood angels that is theirs.

It's a game.

If the 'codex hopper' is using the same, horribly multicolored and half-assembled, headless Marines with crappy counts-as weapon loadouts for BA that they did for SW and CSM, and now are attempting to use them for GK, then that's one thing.

If the 'codex hopper' is literally buying themselves a new army every 6 months for an outlay of hundreds of dollars every time, then your only valid gripe is playing against a guy willing to spend more money on the hobby than you are.

sourclams wrote:It's a game.

If the 'codex hopper' is using the same, horribly multicolored and half-assembled, headless Marines with crappy counts-as weapon loadouts for BA that they did for SW and CSM, and now are attempting to use them for GK, then that's one thing.

If the 'codex hopper' is literally buying themselves a new army every 6 months for an outlay of hundreds of dollars every time, then your only valid gripe is playing against a guy willing to spend more money on the hobby than you are.

this sums my atitude about it , and of course you have to justify the codex hopping
space marine to space marine, but if one day someone said to me that their farseer model is mephiston....

Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Yeah no kidding. Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty similar, right, you gonna let me use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? How about my Tau? They both have skimmers, that should be allowed too. And necrons, yeah, why not. In fact, why care about models at all right? Its not part of the hobby or anything, they are just markers for use with the rules. Maybe I should just start using little wooden mannequin dollies instead of actual models. That way I can play them as Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars/Dark Angels/Ultramarines/Eldar/Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Orks/Fantasy Empire/Fantasy Ogres/Fantasy Skaven, etc. etc. etc.

The minis, their paint scheme, and their interaction with the rules are important aspects of the hobby. You aren't just playing a game, you're re-enacting battles that might occur in a fantasy setting that took years of thought (and plagiarism!) to create. Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't oprerate and fight the same way. There is a reason they look different, there is a reason they have different rules. Its more than just a difference in paint scheme, etc. You're doing the fluff a disservice every time you codex hop. I'm a bit more forgiving if its a custom chapter, I mean, really they can be whatever the hell you want, but I have a limit to how far I can suspend disbelief.

I use my marines to hop around between different armies all the time, and you know why? Because I like to play different armies once in a while-I bought space marines, I can use them as any chapter I want. I play WYSIWYG and don't have proxies, at most one or two, and I shouldn't be told "You can't play Space Wolves because all of your marines are painted Black and Red." I think the complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play. It's a game for God's sake. Accept the fact that some of us play for fun and can use whatever codex we want as long as the pieces are uniformly appropriate and who gives a rat's @$$ about the color of the models. Make sure the weapons on the model are appropriate and you shouldn't have any trouble. Anyone who gives you a hard time isn't a worthwhile opponent. And yes, I've run tournaments and followed what I just said-there were no complaints from anybody.