What's wrong with Codex hopping?

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**MagickalMemories**

Chongara wrote:Grrr! I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way.

Excuse me.
I hope you don't mind if I...
...hmm...

There we go! Sigged!

Eric

**Walls**

nkelsch wrote:
ChrisWWII wrote:As far as proxying versus count as, I'd say there is no real difference other than intent. A count as is something intended to be permanent, be it a melta bomb grenade launcher, assault lasguns, or a converted Carnifex being a Tervigon. A proxy is something temporary, be it a grenade launcher being a melta gun, a lasgun being a shotgun, or a cardboard box being a land raider.

No, A Proxy is something that has clear and distinct rules and you are using it as something else with clear and distinct rules. Your intent and period of time is irrelevant.

Using a Bike as a TWC is a Proxy as Space wolves have clear rules for Bikes and the person just wants to use the TWC rules.
Using A Grenade Launcher as a Melta gun is a Proxy because we have very clear rules for grenade launchers and the best fit rule-wize is the grenade launcher.

Now 'counts as' is when you have conversions, models, or other things that don't have clear rules at all or in your codex and you do what the 'best fit' is. A GOOD counts as will usually be very clear to someone who is aware of the codex as it is the closest approximation.

Using A bunch of Space Marines on Dinosaurs as TWC. They are very very similar because they are clearly cavalry and would be equipped the same.
Using a Cyboar as a biker in an ork army. Orks lack Cavalry rules, but the ork biker rules are the best fit for the conversion.
Using I guard soldiers with fire pyrotechnics (like Necromunda gangers) as a heavy weapon flamer or Melta. It is clear the guy uses fire-based attacks, there are no rules for ganger psykers so he is a counts as.
Using a genestealer cult models with ork rules and making Patriarchs nobz with PK. Represents the closest thing possible for a genestealer patriarch's claws and woundbase and armor.

Those are COUNTS AS. And those usually FLY in events and are universally accepted. Saying your grenade launcher is a Melta is NEVER going to be valid and always be a proxy. Proxies you should ask for permission, is that really so unreasonable? Call a spade a spade.

This is the problem bad everymarine armies come up agains. Bikers as TWC. Assault marines as Sanguinary Guard. TH/SS terminators as Grey Knights. Basically any model with a similar armorsave becomes proxied because they claim 'all my thunderhammers are now NFW!' and they feel it is a tourney legal counts as and opponents should blanket accept it and opponents do not deserve the respect of admitting it is a proxy.

A good everymarine army is good. When I see them it is great to experience. Most of them fail because there are codex specific units that need unique modeling that cannot be easily hopped into without resorting to proxies which defeats the purpose. If you are going to use Non WYSIWYG Proxies, and your opponent is cool, then so be it. THen he should also feel free to proxy his Tau as dark eldar. Just don't show up at adepticon and throw around how your army is WYSIWYG and a valid 'counts as' and you are tourney legal.

There are clear cut Space Wolf models. There are clear cut Grey Knight models. There are even Blood Angel bitz for their armies. Are you saying, then, that codex hopping from or to Space Wolves is just as bad as using bikes for TWC?

**Eilif**

Been following this thread for a while now and enjoying the discussion. Special thanks to nkelsch for defining "counts as" and proxying. In the internet world of "this word means this to you and something else to me" it's nice to have actual working definitions within which to frame arguments.

I think I've been guilty of mixing them up before, but I'll try not to from now on.

nkelsch wrote:But it isn't counts as! It is a Proxy. GW went into depth in their warhammer world tourney rules (which don't seem to be on the internet anymore, FOUND IT!) on what they feel a counts as and a proxy is and they are distinct.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m240024a_Warhammer_World_-_Rules_of_Engagement.pdf

COUNTS AS
The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within or rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

If the model has current rules, and you are not using them, you are PROXYING. If the model has no rules, then you are 'count as'. At no time is using a legal codex item as another legal codex item in the spirit or letter of 'counts as' and they basically are calling players on it within their own publication.

**brettz123**

Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Because the rules and the models allow them too would be the obvious answer.

**The Night Stalker**

All of this bickering won't sway anybody, if people are going to proxy they will probably stand by their reasoning, weather its beacause they haven't bought the model yet, or it resembles that obnoxious GL/meltagun argument.

it all really comes down to opponents consent, if your mate allows proxies, great. However not everyone else does as it makes remembering all of your enemies proxies very tedious.

**Lord_Osma**

@ cyrax777 that sounds fine long as the equipment is correct. The main issue here would be if the week after they suddenly were SW or BA.

**Gornall**

Basically... Until GW specifies exactly what codex specific colors of Marines must use, this "discussion" is moot. People (like me) will use whatever codex they want for their blue/green/grey/red Marines and other people will look down on them for it. Feel free to not play against my WYSIWG Smurf army (without GL bikes) using BA rules in a friendly game. That is your choice. Just don't be suprised if a TO says that there is no rule against blue BAs...

**Coyotebreaks**

S'all good with me, if its for experiments. As long as models are assembled 98% WYSIWYG I don't care. If someone runs a marine codex with eldar models every week I would get a bit peeved. But that never happens my circles.

But as said above proxying weapons and what not in a freindly environment in fine with me. I still have to use proxy las cannons and plasma guns as rockets becuase I have not yet aquiared all the roackets I need. But I am working to wards it and my oponents understand this. And my proxys are the same every week. No ones ever complained.

**Fearspect**

sourclams wrote:Clearly your fun is worse than his Fun. His fun is Fun-Brand Fun, and it's the Funnest Fun that anyone could have while still having Fun.

Is Fun-Brand Fun trolling people at the FLGS with imperfect WYSIWYG armies?

I forget, what does the, 'F' in FLGS stand for again?

**augustus5**

chromedog wrote:Because dilettantism is the mark of the amateur.

Pick something and stick to it. You'll never get better at something unless you persevere with it.

Unless you are a kitten, or teenager, in which case, hopping from one thing to another like a flea with ADHD is normal (still annoying, but sadly normal).

Still, I pick my armies by their look, not their rules, and have been known to use units purely because of how badass they look (regardless of whether such badass-ness translates to the tabletop).

/clap?

**Phototoxin**

What's wrong? It fosters powergaming. What should happen is that everyone gets WS4 BS4 S4 T4 and a 3+ armor save. Then we can just paint what ever models we want and they will all not have to 'count as' sphezz mharines

**Gornall**

Assuming WYSIWYG... how is using a blue army with the BA dex any different than using the same blue army with Vulkan or Lysander or Shrike from week to week. Doesn't that confuse people?

**Walls**

Yes. Yes it does.

But those people codex hopping are using Lysander as a space wolf later on.

**G00fySmiley**

Gornall wrote:Basically... Until GW specifies exactly what codex specific colors of Marines must use, this "discussion" is moot. People (like me) will use whatever codex they want for their blue/green/grey/red Marines and other people will look down on them for it. Feel free to not play against my WYSIWG Smurf army (without GL bikes) using BA rules in a friendly game. That is your choice. Just don't be suprised if a TO says that there is no rule against blue BAs...

yea i don't know what codex i wanna play with the marines i do have... but i plan to paint them as gloss gold/black (its basically like a gloss black with a goldish reflection but not from a glitter effect, cool color imo) base with a dark gunmetal for weapons / highlights on armor and either a crimson red or electric green trim.. what codex woudl that be? do i care, no because it will look cool and after i paint em i'll decide how to play em. it'll all be wysiwyg but it might be wolves, it might be chaos or i might even try inquisition ... and i'll probably try a few matches with different codexes to see what i like playing and go twith that ... btu the paint job isn't going to change, the one i painted to see how it'd come out with looks awsome (half trim green half red still debating on that part) and once i have my ork army done and all the models i need for 2500 points i wanna field a group of marined lookign like that

**Gornall**

Walls wrote:Yes. Yes it does.

But those people codex hopping are using Lysander as a space wolf later on.

I might not understand what you wrote here, but what is the difference as long as the gear is WYSIWYG?

**nkelsch**

Gornall wrote:
Walls wrote:Yes. Yes it does.

But those people codex hopping are using Lysander as a space wolf later on.

I might not understand what you wrote here, but what is the difference as long as the gear is WYSIWYG?

Are they really WYSIWYG or am I being told Assault marines with Power armor and chainswords are really Sanguinary Guard with artificer armor and 2-handed power weapons and deathmasks?

Some people define almost any model in power armor as WYSIWYG for any other model in power armor when they really are not.

**Mr. Burning**

nkelsch wrote:
Gornall wrote:
Walls wrote:Yes. Yes it does.

But those people codex hopping are using Lysander as a space wolf later on.

I might not understand what you wrote here, but what is the difference as long as the gear is WYSIWYG?

Are they really WYSIWYG or am I being told Assault marines with Power armor and chainswords are really Sanguinary Guard with artificer armor and 2-handed power weapons and deathmasks?

Some people define almost any model in power armor as WYSIWYG for any other model in power armor when they really are not.

If it is clear what a model is representing then there shouldn't be any issues. Sure, its not an ideal situation but not everyone can afford to purchase 10 or so variant marine armies even though GW keeps producing 'THIS IS BESTEST EVAR' codexes and minis to go with them.

Hell, GW cannot even stick to WYSIWYG, take a look at Catachans and Cadians, they have the same body armour and armour save, how?

I should mention that due to preference I have stuck with a Khorne/Nurgle CSM army, an IG army and A Ragnar/Ulrik based SW army over the last 15-20 years but it's fine to buy a new codex and adapt your armies to suit.

Isn't it just a game?

**Gornall**

I am assuming true WYSIWYG... Bad proxies are another issue. Using your Sang guard example assume that the weapons are straight off the SG sprue and the armor is at least kitbashed to look ornate. I do not see how that could cause a reasonable problem gamewise.

**Mr. Burning**

Gornall wrote:I am assuming true WYSIWYG... Bad proxies are another issue. Using your Sang guard example assume that the weapons are straight off the SG sprue and the armor is at least kitbashed to look ornate. I do not see how that could cause a reasonable gamer a problem gamewise.

Fixed that.

**Tomb King**

Basic thing in this thread:

Codex hopping is fine in my opinion as long as I know what I am playing. I could care less. Have fun with it and mix it up.

If you have a problem with that then by all means take your TFG attitude elsewhere.

I think its funny the people that have so many issues with what other players are actually the ones with the issues. Though shalt not be so quick to judge! Put away the attitude and have fun. Its a game!

**G00fySmiley**

its a game.. its about fun... you can take a lolipop stick and glue it to a lego person glued to a coin or large washer instead of a base and personaly ii's be like ok its a soldier with a gun, if you tell me its a malta of a flamer then of its a melta or a flamer... but i might be having fun the wrong way too.

show me a pretty painted army and i'll happily play it, show me a jumbled mass of homemade parts badly glued together and as long as your story stays stright on which unit has which gun / weapon then i'll juts as happily play you , its abotu playign the game to me, not sweating if the model is the right fit (thats imo you are free to have your own opinion)

and to me if your lego men glued to coins fielding popsicle sticks can be wolves oen day, blood angels th next... hell make em dark eldar or tau for all i care, lets just play

**nkelsch**

Gornall wrote:I am assuming true WYSIWYG... Bad proxies are another issue. Using your Sang guard example assume that the weapons are straight off the SG sprue and the armor is at least kitbashed to look ornate. I do not see how that could cause a reasonable problem gamewise.

Yeah, I don't think anyone ever has a problem with true WYSIWYG.

I think the issue is from players who feel entitled to play anywhere and everywhere with PROXIES and refuse to even entertain asking for opponents consent. This is why they purposfully twist things around by claiming WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS when they are no where close because they know everyone accepts those but people often shy away from PROXIES.

I think most people are not anti-proxy or anti-everymarine but they are anti-selfish gamer. If someone is unwilling to admit they are proxying and even give the courtesy to admit it and ask for opponents consent, it is a red flag of things to come. A little respect and asking for consent goes a long way as not everyone wants to play with proxies, and they are not always TFG or mentally deficient or whatever preemptive insult people use when they don't get their way.

I can only really think of a few extra units or models you would need for a fully WYSIWYG everymarine army anyways and often people are unwilling to even go that far. Except for having some COUNTS AS TWC, Ornate Jumpackers for sangguard/deathcompany and Orante footsloggers for berserkers/deathcompany/plaugemarines/SW... most everything else is stock marines or vehicles that can be magnetized. You might need some oblits and some unique stuff for grey knights as well as they are different enough from terminators, but at most I would say the core marine models and the extraneous units probably make up a grand total of two full force orgs worth of models. I think 2 armies worth of models is cheap entry for playing half the codexes out there.

If someone wrote a good article about Everymarines and the best path to making the minimal units but still representing the unique gears, I bet it would be a great resource... Basically a 'model' force org for how to be WYSIWYG and still have a DIY everymarine.

Creativity and respecting opponents goes a long way... Throwing temper tantrums about how you can't afford models and how everyone but you is unreasonable doesn't.

**MagickalMemories**

@nkelsch
I agree with you often in other threads. I've been 100% opposite you in this one, though, until your last post.

I think you're dead-on right with it.

Just because I think people who say they won't play against proxied armies/models or who complain about it should just get over it and have fun, doesn't mean there's no responsibility on the past of the proxying player (IMO).

"Hey. I'm collecting this army a little at a time. I don't have all the models I need to get it specifically how I think I want it. I've got some proxies. They're pretty obvious, and I'll be happy to explain them and point them out at any time you want so that you don't get thrown off. That cool?"
It's not a hard thing to say and takes all of 10 seconds.

Eric

**Gornall**

@Nklesch: No real arguments with anything you said. I just think there should be no problem with any codex a Marine player uses from week to week as long as everything is truly WYSIWYG.

**Defeatmyarmy**

Almost my entire DOA army is chaos and everything has been converted to have proper gear. Aspiring champions do not have TH or SS options for raptors so it is pretty obvious that my chaos marines count as regular marines. Using a Chaos Thousand Sons sorceror for my Librarian, etc.

**Anonymoose**

I play an ig list but use models from many ranges eg. kroot, fire warriors, harlequins, orks. Is this bad, would you not play against it?
if you would play against it then why not let someone use normal marines for a B.A army? I personally have nothing wrong with
this as long as theye are at least mostly painted

**ChrisWWII**

Ummm....it probably would be to be honest. It sounds very confusing, and very very weird. Unless:
a) You have DAMN good fluff for why those factions are working together.
b) You're working on getting an IG Army, but have not had time to buy the models yet.

I'd play you....but one of those 2 above better be true, becuase I will be getting annoyed very quickly.

**Warflake**

I think at the end of the day if there codex hopping then there not really learning tactics and what have you. So really there gonna try there hardest to field what there idea of the new best thing and throw that down but have no idea how to use it. IMO that shouldn't be a problem because 9 out of 10 times there going to lose because they havent put the time in. That's why I wouldnt have a problem with it personally. I mean me personally I got into my army for the fluff and the general style but if they want to dip there toes in different ponds I dont see the problem. Because I think they will eventually realise what army they feel comfortable with and if they don't as I said before they'll never have any tactics and they can try to boost there stats as much as possible but someone with even a little more experience with there army has a better chance. And I'd also like to add that they never get the joy of finishing an army in there colours which I find satisfying.

**Eilif**

Anonymoose wrote:I play an ig list but use models from many ranges eg. kroot, fire warriors, harlequins, orks. Is this bad, would you not play against it?
if you would play against it then why not let someone use normal marines for a B.A army? I personally have nothing wrong with
this as long as theye are at least mostly painted

Interesting first post...

I'd play against it.
Once.
After that, I'd probably avoid it or suggest that we play smaller games with just one of your factions.

I'm pretty flexible, and could proably see Kroot and Fire Warriors incorporated into an IG force, and I'd be fine with other brands of human troopers (EM4, Wargames factory, etc) if there was some consistency with the proxying of weapons as IG. However,I'd probably draw the line at Harlequin's and orks. I'd rather play an army of mixed factions where each faction was using it's real rules (kind of old school RT'ish) than play a mixed army where all the units are pretending to be something they aren't.

I don't play that often, but when I do, it's as much for the specatcle of painted armis as it is for the 40k game. This may come across as a bit harsh, but from my point of view the example you cite is not an army, it's a random collection of figs and that's just not fun to play against.

**The Night Stalker**

Anonymoose wrote:I play an ig list but use models from many ranges eg. kroot, fire warriors, harlequins, orks. Is this bad, would you not play against it?
if you would play against it then why not let someone use normal marines for a B.A army? I personally have nothing wrong with
this as long as theye are at least mostly painted

Wait, What???