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Meh, in most of the Marine codices, there are many common units. It's not as simple as Tau = Eldar, Eldar = Tau. Even Eldar > Dark Eldar doesn't really work because DE and Eldar transports are radically different.

There's no difference in vehicle footprint between Chaos Rhinos, SW Rhinos, BA Rhinos, and Vanilla Rhinos. There's no difference between a Tactical Marine, a Chaos Marine, a Grey Hunter (most people don't have bolter, BP, and CCW all modeled. The mini looks too crowded), etc. Rules wise there are differences, however. Same with Dreads between the named codices aside from equipment differences.

They all can get Vindicators, Predators, Rhinos, some type of Tactical-ish Marine, Psykers (libby vs. sorceror vs. rune priest), vanilla HQs (Lords vs. Captains etc). There are so many similarities that "codex hopping" really shouldn't create any confusion since you're playing against more or less the same thing anyway.

That said, if your guys are painted in a scheme that doesn't match the codex, you need to tell your opponent what you're doing. A BA Razorback doesn't look much different than a SW Razorback, but it's "fast" and that's huge. Just one example.

ChrisWWII wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Please provide the definition you are using. Counts as are universally accepted event at WYSIWYG events. Proxies are not. Grenade launcher as a melta would never be accepted at a tourney or WYSIWYG events so it is not counts as.

If I say that in my fluff, my army uses grenade launchers shooting meltabombs for antitank purpouses, and thus I use the melta gun rules to represent this, the grenade launcher would be a very nice 'count as' melta bomb launcher thingy. As long as its consistent, e.g. ALL grenade launchers are really melta bomb launchers, or there is some very obvious difference between a regular grenade launcher, and a melta bomb launcher, there shouldn't be a problem.

Still lazy, still proxy (unless you actually make this: "melta bomb launcher" with "some very obvious differences" - then it is counts-as)
Same with your "assault lasguns" - also lazy, also proxy. Do some converting with them, f.ex. double short barrels or something, and BOOOM, you've got counts-as

Nothing wrong with proxing a bit from time to time against your friends to test out units or wargear (just ask in advance), but don't just keep proxying forever and then hide behind "counts-as" when people complain.

And what if the melta bomb launcher or assault lasgun is physically identical to the more common grenade launcher or lasgun (which is kind of the entire point)? As long as I make it clear what's going on, I don't see how you could have a problem.

It's like with psychic powers, how do you model choices like that? Or how do you model a wolf tooth necklace and other tiny things? Sometimes you either can't model it, or a decent modelling of it is beyond your skill to do. Sure, I can greenstuff a wolf tooth necklace onto a model, but it'd look like crap. Not everyone is a god like modeller or converter, and I'm more than willing to cut slack for both a better looking game, and a more fun one.

Sometimes, pure undiluted WYSIWYG has to give in favor of simplicity and easiness, and as long as the fluff makes sense, and the distinctions are clear, I see no problem with saying 'my veterans have assault lasguns, aka shotguns' or 'these grenade launchers shoot melta bombs, and count as melta guns for all intents and purpouses', and have never played someone who grew frustrated with such things.

ChrisWWII wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Please provide the definition you are using. Counts as are universally accepted event at WYSIWYG events. Proxies are not. Grenade launcher as a melta would never be accepted at a tourney or WYSIWYG events so it is not counts as.

If I say that in my fluff, my army uses grenade launchers shooting meltabombs for antitank purpouses, and thus I use the melta gun rules to represent this, the grenade launcher would be a very nice 'count as' melta bomb launcher thingy. As long as its consistent, e.g. ALL grenade launchers are really melta bomb launchers, or there is some very obvious difference between a regular grenade launcher, and a melta bomb launcher, there shouldn't be a problem.

That is a Proxy and would not be WYSIWYG and not be allowed at events that allow COUNTS AS.

Your fluff is irrelevant, and your conversion fails the rule of cool as it is a lazy proxy, not an inventive conversion.

The issue is COUNTS AS are allowed pretty much everywhere. In friendly games where opponent consent to your proxies, there isn't a problem. In a competitive environment your proxies are not welcome. Calling them count as or demanding people accept them as counts as is like going to a restaurant that requires a necktie to be sat at a table and you take off your smelly sock and tie it around your neck and claim 'it is tied around my neck, I am legal right?'

Is it really so hard to accept you are using proxies and that people dislike them and there are times and places where proxies are not acceptable? This is the core of the everymarine issue because people use PROXIES and claim counts as marines and then say they are tourney legal and WYSIWYG when they are in no way even close.Everymarine armies can be done correctly, but many people don't even make an attempt so they fail the 'rule of cool' and become avoided.

Sometimes, pure undiluted WYSIWYG has to give in favor of simplicity and easiness, and as long as the fluff makes sense, and the distinctions are clear, I see no problem with saying 'my veterans have assault lasguns, aka shotguns' or 'these grenade launchers shoot melta bombs, and count as melta guns for all intents and purpouses', and have never played someone who grew frustrated with such things.

Your fluff is a lazy excuse for not wanting to attempt to model. Your distinctions are not clear because it has to be explained and possibly re-explained. If you ask to use PROXIES and get opponents consent in friendly play, sure no problem. If you Demand to use PROXIES hiding behind a misunderstanding of counts as at a competitive event where WYSIWYG is expected, then no dice. I am unsure why this is hard to comprehend. If you make some effort, opponents respect it. Lazy proxies are seen for what they are... and asking permission is respectful and usually gets you through most friendly games.

Maybe all my ork rokkit launchers shoot frag rounds that are now str 5 assault 3 result... I wonder how that will go over?

As far as proxying versus count as, I'd say there is no real difference other than intent. A count as is something intended to be permanent, be it a melta bomb grenade launcher, assault lasguns, or a converted Carnifex being a Tervigon. A proxy is something temporary, be it a grenade launcher being a melta gun, a lasgun being a shotgun, or a cardboard box being a land raider.

I mean, look at this example. In both cases Empire Steam Tanks are being used in place of Chimeras in an IG army...however one player is proxying, and another is count as-ing.

Proxy: 'Hey, I'm playing IG, so these Empire Steam tanks represent Chimeras till I replace them.'

Count As: 'Hey, I'm playing IG with a steam punk theme, so these Empire steam tanks are Chimeras.'

The only difference is intent, anything can switch between a proxy and count as in a moments notice.

Edit:

a) Mind turning down the personal attacks?

b) I'd expect to explain what msot things are in my army on a regular basis, not eveyone is familiar with the difference between a Leman Russ and a Vanquisher, or the difference between a Veteran squad and a PIS, and I expect to have to explain and re-explain even with an army that is fully WYSIWYG armies.

Hell, I have to sit down and listen whenever I play Eldar or Tau thanks to each tank having a host of different upgrades I'm unfamiliar with, even if the model is fully WYSIWYG. Just because it's modelled doesn't mean I automatically understand that the little bit glued on to the bottom represents star engines, or whatever.

Just because something has to be explained or re-explained doesn't make it a bad count as model, it happens even with fully WYSIWYG models. I'd be more annoyed with you if you placed a Falcon on the table, never mentioned what its upgrades are to me, then sprang it on me half way through the game that, 'Yeah, it has holofields. That's what this little attenae thing is!' Than if you had place a bare Falcon and immediately listed off what upgrades it had.

As for your rokkit launchers, sounds good to me. As long as you have some way of differentiating between frag rokits, and regular rokkits.

It's simple. Anyone here that is saying "you can't win with X army with the new codex...so I'll proxy them as Y army" or anything to that degree is completely missing the point of the hobby.
An army is weaker with its rules than another army. SO WHAT?!? That just makes it more of a challenge, stick with the army, think up a new strategy, go on a forum and get some advice....
and changing army between games depending on your opponent is just not sporting, and you will ruin the game for all that you play. The fun is in the challenge of sticking out a game despite being at a disadvantage from the offset. Montgomery didn't bitch and moan after losing repeatedly in North Africa before El Alamain. He didn't say to his men "We're losing so today, lets fight as Russians, then we can win. All don your woolly hats" He just tried a different tactic (this is highly generalised for any keen historians that may be offended by it)

However, I don't see any harm in someone testing a new army out, especially as with new releases the prices are extortionate...let your opponent know though!

In the end, I'd rather fight a tough game with a guy that has as good a time as I do while using proxied minis than I would fighting someone that bemoaned their armies rules all game. After all hobbies are meant to be fun, are they not?

I wouldn't play a habitual codex hopper, that's me though. Peace.

I absolutely despise codex hoppers. I have a couple friends who do it, and it makes me angry every time.

I have a friend who's switched from.... Necrons, to Tau, to VM to blood angels, to GK, all in the span of less than a year. He uses marines for literally everything, no matter how non-wysiwyg it is.

I've played two codexes, and nothing else for the same time period. Just stick with one or two.

ChrisWWII wrote:As far as proxying versus count as, I'd say there is no real difference other than intent. A count as is something intended to be permanent, be it a melta bomb grenade launcher, assault lasguns, or a converted Carnifex being a Tervigon. A proxy is something temporary, be it a grenade launcher being a melta gun, a lasgun being a shotgun, or a cardboard box being a land raider.

No, A Proxy is something that has clear and distinct rules and you are using it as something else with clear and distinct rules. Your intent and period of time is irrelevant.

Using a Bike as a TWC is a Proxy as Space wolves have clear rules for Bikes and the person just wants to use the TWC rules.
Using A Grenade Launcher as a Melta gun is a Proxy because we have very clear rules for grenade launchers and the best fit rule-wize is the grenade launcher.

Now 'counts as' is when you have conversions, models, or other things that don't have clear rules at all or in your codex and you do what the 'best fit' is. A GOOD counts as will usually be very clear to someone who is aware of the codex as it is the closest approximation.

Using A bunch of Space Marines on Dinosaurs as TWC. They are very very similar because they are clearly cavalry and would be equipped the same.
Using a Cyboar as a biker in an ork army. Orks lack Cavalry rules, but the ork biker rules are the best fit for the conversion.
Using I guard soldiers with fire pyrotechnics (like Necromunda gangers) as a heavy weapon flamer or Melta. It is clear the guy uses fire-based attacks, there are no rules for ganger psykers so he is a counts as.
Using a genestealer cult models with ork rules and making Patriarchs nobz with PK. Represents the closest thing possible for a genestealer patriarch's claws and woundbase and armor.

Those are COUNTS AS. And those usually FLY in events and are universally accepted. Saying your grenade launcher is a Melta is NEVER going to be valid and always be a proxy. Proxies you should ask for permission, is that really so unreasonable? Call a spade a spade.

This is the problem bad everymarine armies come up agains. Bikers as TWC. Assault marines as Sanguinary Guard. TH/SS terminators as Grey Knights. Basically any model with a similar armorsave becomes proxied because they claim 'all my thunderhammers are now NFW!' and they feel it is a tourney legal counts as and opponents should blanket accept it and opponents do not deserve the respect of admitting it is a proxy.

A good everymarine army is good. When I see them it is great to experience. Most of them fail because there are codex specific units that need unique modeling that cannot be easily hopped into without resorting to proxies which defeats the purpose. If you are going to use Non WYSIWYG Proxies, and your opponent is cool, then so be it. THen he should also feel free to proxy his Tau as dark eldar. Just don't show up at adepticon and throw around how your army is WYSIWYG and a valid 'counts as' and you are tourney legal.

Grrr! I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way.

I see we have a fundamental disagreement about the nature of proxying versus count as. As I've explained, I view the differenc merely being one of intent. If my grenade launcher is a melta for this game cause I don't have a melta it's a proxy, but if my grenade launcher is permanantly a melta because I like the idea of launching melta bombs better, than it's a count as.

Your view is very different from mine, and it's unlikely arguing about it will produce anything other than clutter and rehash in the thread, and that's something no one wants.

As far as codex hopping, I see it as the same thing, a matter of intent. If a person jumps at all the new codexes because he loves all the new fluff/models/rules, but doesn't have the time or moeny to invest in large armies for everything, and cuts his costs by using the same minis to represent different things, than more power to him! As long as he's a good sport and a fun game, I'm not going to complain about his 'codex hopping'.

On the other hand, if you have someone hopping codexes because Blood Angels are better than Space Wolves, and Grey Knights are even better than Angels, and only switching for purpouses of winning, then I'll get suspicious. If and only if, they turn out to be annoying TFGs will I refuse to play them or anything else similar.

Like almost everything in life, these issues are complicated, and need flexible solutions rather than dogmatic ones.

I use grenade launchers as meltaguns on my SM biker army because I built it back in "Great GW Meltagun Shortage of 2009". I argue that is "Counts As". Also... Said bike army is blue... So I hope that does not confuse anyone.

Gornall wrote:I use grenade launchers as meltaguns on my SM biker army because I built it back in "Great GW Meltagun Shortage of 2009". I argue that is "Counts As". Also... Said bike army is blue... So I hope that does not confuse anyone.

But it isn't counts as! It is a Proxy. GW went into depth in their warhammer world tourney rules (which don't seem to be on the internet anymore, FOUND IT!) on what they feel a counts as and a proxy is and they are distinct.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m240024a_Warhammer_World_-_Rules_of_Engagement.pdf

COUNTS AS
The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within or rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

If the model has current rules, and you are not using them, you are PROXYING. If the model has no rules, then you are 'count as'. At no time is using a legal codex item as another legal codex item in the spirit or letter of 'counts as' and they basically are calling players on it within their own publication.

I am not sure why people are so resistant to just admit they are using proxies and asking permission. As if calling it counts as tricks people into playing games with them under the premise of not needing opponents consent and then half way through they find out you were using proxies all along. (which is what happens with everymarine armies all the time when that generic marine unit all of a sudden has furious charge or FNP or some other rule because it is being used as an unclear similar but not equal unit.)

Its a counts as because it is consistent throughout the army and cannot be confused with any wargear that marines can legally field. If it was plasma guns or storm bolters standing in for meltas then I could see it being a problem.

nkelsch wrote:
Please provide the definition you are using. Counts as are universally accepted event at WYSIWYG events. Proxies are not. Grenade launcher as a melta would never be accepted at a tourney or WYSIWYG events so it is not counts as.

prox·y
   /ˈprɒksi/ Show Spelled[prok-see] Show IPA
–noun, plural prox·ies.
1.
the agency, function, or power of a person authorized to act as the deputy or substitute for another.
2.
the person so authorized; substitute; agent.



So, since this word is used used to represent a model, rather than a person, you can read it as, "1. A model authorized to substitute for another." or, "2. a model so authorized; substitute."

That definition, literally used, means that a model, or part thereof, that is used to substitute for another model or part thereof, counts as that model or part thereof for this game. I argue that 'proxy' and 'counts as' are the same thing. Semantics. Either way, my opinion is such that you can use the rules for whichever army you want, so long as the models are WYSIWYG.

If you're one of my buddies and we're playing a game, I don't really give a shinypants wtf you use in your army. If you're just some asspickle trying to use a Dark Eldar codex with your Lizardman army, I'll tell you that you can go suck a bag of ****.




King Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote: I argue that 'proxy' and 'counts as' are the same thing. Semantics.

They are not the same thing. 'Counts as' has a very specific meaning within the GW world and is an exception that makes it distinct from 'proxies' which are usually avoided, not allowed at WYSIWYG events and require opponents permission.

I call this unit Lazeron the Lightning cloak. He is my "count as" for Mephiston. I spent the time an effort to make this model, for 2 reasons

1) I hate metal models
2) I made my own BA chapter and this character is my version of an established character using his rules. It is modeled fairly similarly and is equipped the same as the character is is counting as.

My BA chapter is painted a shade of red and never is played as any army other than BA. Would this be a legal "count as"?





This is my Commander Dante. He exists because I am cheep. He is made to be equipped and look like a model I do not want to pay for. Would he be a proxy, or a count as? He will always be Dante and he is not a model that exists anywhere else in my army. His jump pack is a chaos marine jump pack because I dislike the look of the bulky SM jump packs.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Proxy: 'Hey, I'm playing IG, so these Empire Steam tanks represent Chimeras till I replace them.'

Count As: 'Hey, I'm playing IG with a steam punk theme, so these Empire steam tanks are Chimeras.'

The only difference is intent, anything can switch between a proxy and count as in a moments notice.

alright this is a pretty good example.

heres where i see it tho both are ture.

However the Count As player will theme the 'whole' army with effort to the smallest detail into the realm of steampunk. The proxy player has a standard units with his steam tank stand in, and most likely other such anomalies. There is a massive chasm between these 2 players. Again proxy with the intent of replacing them in time is fine, on a level of playing with friends. Not so against more competitive scenes. I think thats kinda of the crux of it.

Show me the legal codex rules for grenade launchers on SM bikes and I will admit that I am proxying... by your own definition that subsitution meets the criteria for counts as.

I call this unit Lazeron the Lightning cloak. He is my "count as" for Mephiston. I spent the time an effort to make this model, for 2 reasons

1) I hate metal models
2) I made my own BA chapter and this character is my version of an established character using his rules. It is modeled fairly similarly and is equipped the same as the character is is counting as.

My BA chapter is painted a shade of red and never is played as any army other than BA. Would this be a legal "count as"?




This is my Commander Dante. He exists because I am cheep. He is made to be equipped and look like a model I do not want to pay for. Would he be a proxy, or a count as? He will always be Dante and he is not a model that exists anywhere else in my army. His jump pack is a chaos marine jump pack because I dislike the look of the bulky SM jump packs.

yes both these are Count As - not a problem. These are simply conversions.

I've done the same with my plague marines.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360447.page

Lord_Osma wrote:


This is my Commander Dante. He exists because I am cheep. He is made to be equipped and look like a model I do not want to pay for. Would he be a proxy, or a count as? He will always be Dante and he is not a model that exists anywhere else in my army. His jump pack is a chaos marine jump pack because I dislike the look of the bulky SM jump packs.

Doesn't bother me, although he's giving me kind of a weird "Baroque Cyberman from Dr. Who" vibe...

Funny enough... That mephiston figure would make a great Counts As for Sicarius...

@ Balance: lol, thanks I think.

@ Underachiever. Love the plague marines.

@both Thanks for giving opinions on my models. After reading this thread I became somewhat concerned.

Personally I really try for WYSIWYG. Especially as far as weapons and units being what they are.

I'm also a big fan of conversions. The melta grenade launchers keep being brought up so I wanted to add that if they were modeled using some melta bomb bits and some conversions, even little ones I think it would be okay if it's what your army is about, but grenade launchers as is I can understand why people may have issues. Especially in a tournament setting.

That aside I like the idea.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I absolutely despise codex hoppers. I have a couple friends who do it, and it makes me angry every time.

I have a friend who's switched from.... Necrons, to Tau, to VM to blood angels, to GK, all in the span of less than a year. He uses marines for literally everything, no matter how non-wysiwyg it is.

I've played two codexes, and nothing else for the same time period. Just stick with one or two.

Don't play the kid?

I dont necessarily hate codex hoppers but what i do hate is those who only do it so they can win. They dont ever buy the new models and just use counts as. I personally think a army built to actually model what there supposed to be just kind of makes the game a little better. Theres a reason why i have played only dark angels and grey knights for the last 3ish years i think they look great on the field. I dipped into other armys like nids and what not but i had the models.

Gornall wrote:Show me the legal codex rules for grenade launchers on SM bikes and I will admit that I am proxying... by your own definition that subsitution meets the criteria for counts as.

Scout bikes have grenade launchers, bike captain can take a grenade launcher and a bike.

Also, it is no point arguing the semantics of this. Rule of cool is in effect. If you are just lazy+cheap, it shines through. You know it is proxy, your opponent knows it is proxy etc. Even if you are cheap, you can still put some effort into it. Make some changes to those grenade launchers so they don't look like grenade launchers anymore. (or just buy the cheap metal meltaguns from GW - there is no meltagun-shortage anymore)

nkelsch wrote:... Those are COUNTS AS. And those usually FLY in events and are universally accepted. Saying your grenade launcher is a Melta is NEVER going to be valid and always be a proxy. Proxies you should ask for permission, is that really so unreasonable? Call a spade a spade.

This is the problem bad everymarine armies come up agains. Bikers as TWC. Assault marines as Sanguinary Guard. TH/SS terminators as Grey Knights. Basically any model with a similar armorsave becomes proxied because they claim 'all my thunderhammers are now NFW!' and they feel it is a tourney legal counts as and opponents should blanket accept it and opponents do not deserve the respect of admitting it is a proxy.

A good everymarine army is good. When I see them it is great to experience. Most of them fail because there are codex specific units that need unique modeling that cannot be easily hopped into without resorting to proxies which defeats the purpose. If you are going to use Non WYSIWYG Proxies, and your opponent is cool, then so be it. THen he should also feel free to proxy his Tau as dark eldar. Just don't show up at adepticon and throw around how your army is WYSIWYG and a valid 'counts as' and you are tourney legal.

nkelsch speaks the truth

Underachiever wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

Proxy: 'Hey, I'm playing IG, so these Empire Steam tanks represent Chimeras till I replace them.'

Count As: 'Hey, I'm playing IG with a steam punk theme, so these Empire steam tanks are Chimeras.'

The only difference is intent, anything can switch between a proxy and count as in a moments notice.

alright this is a pretty good example.

Not really. You could just as easily say the above examples like this:

Count As: 'Hey, I'm playing IG, so these Empire Steam tanks represent Chimeras till I replace them.'

Proxy: 'Hey, I'm playing IG with a steam punk theme, so these Empire steam tanks are Chimeras.'

Simply adding a few more words (w/ a steam punk theme) does not change the facts of the example. The fact is, the player is using steam tanks to represent chimeras.
He/she is proxying steam tanks that count as chimeras. They are not chimeras. For the purposes of this game, they do COUNT AS chimeras. Ergo, he is PROXYing steam tanks as chimeras.

Same. Damned. Thing.

nkelsch wrote:They are not the same thing.

They are exactly the same thing. Neither are WYSIWYG, both are something representing something else that they clearly are not. Same thing, different terms. Like 'argument' and 'debate'.




King Ghidorah

chaos0xomega wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Yeah no kidding. Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty similar, right, you gonna let me use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? How about my Tau? They both have skimmers, that should be allowed too. And necrons, yeah, why not. In fact, why care about models at all right? Its not part of the hobby or anything, they are just markers for use with the rules. Maybe I should just start using little wooden mannequin dollies instead of actual models. That way I can play them as Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars/Dark Angels/Ultramarines/Eldar/Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Orks/Fantasy Empire/Fantasy Ogres/Fantasy Skaven, etc. etc. etc.

The minis, their paint scheme, and their interaction with the rules are important aspects of the hobby. You aren't just playing a game, you're re-enacting battles that might occur in a fantasy setting that took years of thought (and plagiarism!) to create. Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't oprerate and fight the same way. There is a reason they look different, there is a reason they have different rules. Its more than just a difference in paint scheme, etc. You're doing the fluff a disservice every time you codex hop. I'm a bit more forgiving if its a custom chapter, I mean, really they can be whatever the hell you want, but I have a limit to how far I can suspend disbelief.

Oh God, its not just a game??!?! All those lives in that fantasy universe that I've ruined... Oh God, I can't live with the guilt...

And really, you're going to through GW's fluff up as a defense for your beliefs? Oh noes, my Blood Angles are painted blue this week.. How will the Necrons know to fist-bump them?

Clearly your fun is worse than his Fun. His fun is Fun-Brand Fun, and it's the Funnest Fun that anyone could have while still having Fun.

Hell I use regular rhinos and land raiders for my chaos SM as i dont like the spikey bits. Alot of my dudes are from AOBR. There wargear is wysiwyg just they dont have spikey shoulder pads. I am not going to purchase a ton of dudes when the only diffrence is looks spikes vs nonspikes. You can look at my army see the guys and go oh thats a marine with a melta. "so yeah some people do run plain marines as chaos.