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Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

I know this is a little off topic but cottonjaw yes your codex is pretty old but I wouldnt be complaining the cron codex is WAY older thatn yours. and so what if their codex is coming out in june were talking now.
So youre mad because youve been getting crappy rail gun roles wtf? dont complain about overpriced units crons are inflated, grey knights are a bit too if you think about it.tau is simple anyways just get rail guns and shoot 'wow!'

Codex hopping it NOT wysiwyg. It's such a misleading term. It's not just gear you see, it's an army. AGAIN it is not the bolt pistol I care about. It's the ruleset. Angels, Wolves, Dark Angels, Marines, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, etc... all have different rules. You CANNOT tell by looking at codex hopping armies what those rules are.

And again, my other point was I have a problem because no one is willing to admit they do it for power and game winning. The reason I am seeing is "Well, a marine is a marine, so why not?" That's not the truth.

Let's get the argument tighter.

Eldar vs Dark Eldar. Is that just fine then? Can I use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? An shuriken pistol is a shuriken pistol, no?

This really IS one of those arguments that no one wins and goes in circles for endless years until the thread is shut down. Marine players won't really give a reason other then "It's WYSIWYG, it's not our fault marines are like that." Those against codex hopping have their argument and never in history has anyone's mind been changed. Regardless, I still have not seen a single good argument as to why it's ok for marines, but not anyone else.

Walls wrote:Codex hopping it NOT wysiwyg. It's such a misleading term. It's not just gear you see, it's an army. AGAIN it is not the bolt pistol I care about. It's the ruleset. Angels, Wolves, Dark Angels, Marines, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, etc... all have different rules. You CANNOT tell by looking at codex hopping armies what those rules are.

And again, my other point was I have a problem because no one is willing to admit they do it for power and game winning. The reason I am seeing is "Well, a marine is a marine, so why not?" That's not the truth.

Let's get the argument tighter.

Eldar vs Dark Eldar. Is that just fine then? Can I use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? An shuriken pistol is a shuriken pistol, no?

This really IS one of those arguments that no one wins and goes in circles for endless years until the thread is shut down. Marine players won't really give a reason other then "It's WYSIWYG, it's not our fault marines are like that." Those against codex hopping have their argument and never in history has anyone's mind been changed. Regardless, I still have not seen a single good argument as to why it's ok for marines, but not anyone else.

You do know that 'counts as' is in the brb? I know folks that used IG grenade launchers as melta weapons.

If you are so easily distracted that you can't remember at the beginning of the game that the green marines in front of you are grey hunters, you have more issues with 40k than anyone else I have ever met.

Your argument is approaching straw man and sounds like you can't adapt to anything in 40k.

imweasel wrote:

Walls wrote:Codex hopping it NOT wysiwyg. It's such a misleading term. It's not just gear you see, it's an army. AGAIN it is not the bolt pistol I care about. It's the ruleset. Angels, Wolves, Dark Angels, Marines, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, etc... all have different rules. You CANNOT tell by looking at codex hopping armies what those rules are.

And again, my other point was I have a problem because no one is willing to admit they do it for power and game winning. The reason I am seeing is "Well, a marine is a marine, so why not?" That's not the truth.

Let's get the argument tighter.

Eldar vs Dark Eldar. Is that just fine then? Can I use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? An shuriken pistol is a shuriken pistol, no?

This really IS one of those arguments that no one wins and goes in circles for endless years until the thread is shut down. Marine players won't really give a reason other then "It's WYSIWYG, it's not our fault marines are like that." Those against codex hopping have their argument and never in history has anyone's mind been changed. Regardless, I still have not seen a single good argument as to why it's ok for marines, but not anyone else.

You do know that 'counts as' is in the brb? I know folks that used IG grenade launchers as melta weapons.

If you are so easily distracted that you can't remember at the beginning of the game that the green marines in front of you are grey hunters, you have more issues with 40k than anyone else I have ever met.

Your argument is approaching straw man and sounds like you can't adapt to anything in 40k.

Count As armies are totally something else - this is where spirit of the game is abused. Count As is a fluff thing, it's there so we can express a theme etc. Not something where a melta is a grenade launcher or the other way around. Meltas look a certain way, they should look that way or either change every single one to a single profile shape in your army. And this isnt even a money issue there is plenty magnet tutorials or plug and play tutorial out there where you can get flexible units for list changes. You dont have to buy a new squad. But not caring enough to even bother. 'yeah it's umm a melta' Dont cut it.

Yeah, not sure where I've ever actually said that it's ok to use a Grenade Launcher as a melta gun. Sounds like a typical WAAC player argument... you know, the guys using chaos marines but space wolf rules, but also used chaos marine rules back in 3rd.

So, really... I can use Eldar but give them IG lasguns and vox casters. They'd be WYSIWYG then. The bodies obviously don't matter, the weapons do? If you can't remember that the lasgun toting eldar with vox casters are guard, then I guess you have problems.

The issue I have with codex hopping is players who have Marines clearly painted/modeled in one army's theme, who play it differently between weeks, or even games on the same day. Colour scheme is a big part of WYSIWYG with certain armies - whilst it's perfectly reasonable to play some green marines as Space Wolves, playing space wolf grey marines as Codex: Green Marines can be more than momentarily confusing.
It gets even more confusing when today, you play them as Green Marines, tomorrow they're space wolves, the next day they're green marines again, and you keep doing that frequently forever. I have no problem if you spend a few weeks trying to decide if your (non-codex-colour-themed) army gets played as BA or SW. But if you literally never decide, and switch it up depending on your mood, I'm pretty likely to get confused.
And if you decide one day that your Space Wolves army, modelled in all its glory with wolf symbolism and regalia, is going to suddenly become a Blood Angels army, thats a little rude. If I wanted to switch from a Tau army to Blood Angels, i'd start a brand new army, not just say 'these dudes count as Death Company'. Just because your models are slightly more similar does not make it any more ok.

Confusion is the main thing, for me. You can claim all you want that 'if you explain at the start of the game, its ok', but really, if you look down at the table and see wolves your first thought is 'SPACE WOLVES', even if moments later you think, 'o wait, attack bikes'. Counts-as armies, in my opinion, are acceptable if A) You're literally trying it out for a handful of games before buying the real deal, or B) You have spent a lot of time and effort merging your theme and models together. Grey Marines pretending to be red marines does not cut it, in my opinion.

Walls wrote:
So, really... I can use Eldar but give them IG lasguns and vox casters. They'd be WYSIWYG then. The bodies obviously don't matter, the weapons do? If you can't remember that the lasgun toting eldar with vox casters are guard, then I guess you have problems.

My guardians are from 2nd edition and already have lasguns. I guess I'm good to go!

Underachiever wrote:Count As armies are totally something else - this is where spirit of the game is abused. Count As is a fluff thing, it's there so we can express a theme etc. Not something where a melta is a grenade launcher or the other way around. Meltas look a certain way, they should look that way or either change every single one to a single profile shape in your army. And this isnt even a money issue there is plenty magnet tutorials or plug and play tutorial out there where you can get flexible units for list changes. You dont have to buy a new squad. But not caring enough to even bother. 'yeah it's umm a melta' Dont cut it.

So you are honestly going to make someone buy 50 gazillion IG CCS boxes so they can get enough melta guns in their list?

Talk about a WAAC attitude there...

imweasel wrote:

Underachiever wrote:Count As armies are totally something else - this is where spirit of the game is abused. Count As is a fluff thing, it's there so we can express a theme etc. Not something where a melta is a grenade launcher or the other way around. Meltas look a certain way, they should look that way or either change every single one to a single profile shape in your army. And this isnt even a money issue there is plenty magnet tutorials or plug and play tutorial out there where you can get flexible units for list changes. You dont have to buy a new squad. But not caring enough to even bother. 'yeah it's umm a melta' Dont cut it.

So you are honestly going to make someone buy 50 gazillion IG CCS boxes so they can get enough melta guns in their list?

Talk about a WAAC attitude there...

nope i expect them to use some forethought and convert them up. and you could you know think about having a balanced list rather than melta spamming to WAAC lists, what you using for your 3 Valks Shoe boxes?

Walls wrote:Yeah, not sure where I've ever actually said that it's ok to use a Grenade Launcher as a melta gun. Sounds like a typical WAAC player argument... you know, the guys using chaos marines but space wolf rules, but also used chaos marine rules back in 3rd.

So, really... I can use Eldar but give them IG lasguns and vox casters. They'd be WYSIWYG then. The bodies obviously don't matter, the weapons do? If you can't remember that the lasgun toting eldar with vox casters are guard, then I guess you have problems.

You apparently don't understand 'counts as'. I have no problem with you using eldar bodies and giving them IG equipment. It's called 'kit bashing'. Perhaps you don't like IG models. That's fine.

Now, in my example, if some of the grenade launchers are actually one weapon and some are another, then that's an issue.

I swear some of you 'anti' folks are WAAC players yourself in the fact you just can't adapt. Stay in your padded rooms. It's to dangerous for you guys in a game store.

imweasel wrote:

Underachiever wrote:Count As armies are totally something else - this is where spirit of the game is abused. Count As is a fluff thing, it's there so we can express a theme etc. Not something where a melta is a grenade launcher or the other way around. Meltas look a certain way, they should look that way or either change every single one to a single profile shape in your army. And this isnt even a money issue there is plenty magnet tutorials or plug and play tutorial out there where you can get flexible units for list changes. You dont have to buy a new squad. But not caring enough to even bother. 'yeah it's umm a melta' Dont cut it.

So you are honestly going to make someone buy 50 gazillion IG CCS boxes so they can get enough melta guns in their list?

Talk about a WAAC attitude there...

How is that in any way a "win at all costs" attitude? This has nothing to do with winning games..

And I agree, grenade launchers are not meltas. It's lazy, and it's confusing. I've played ork players who do the "oh no, this boys shoota was a rokkit, and this big shoota is x". It's confusing as hell for your opponent, and takes away from the overall enjoyment.

I don't expect you to buy "50 gazillion boxes". Mostly because: you don't need to. Most IG armies, even spammy, run 20. you can buy a box of 5 for less than 10 dollars from GAMES WORKSHOP. You could convert some as well from flamers, etc. There's a million tutorials. Put some effort into your army is all most people ask.

Underachiever wrote:nope i expect them to use some forethought and convert them up. and you could you know think about having a balanced list rather than melta spamming to WAAC lists, what you using for your 3 Valks Shoe boxes?

Convert them up? My god!!!

That would be so...confusing. Wouldn't it? I mean it won't look exaclty like an IG melta gun. How in the world would you guys be able to tell the difference if it's not an IG melta gun on an IG model?

Heaven forbid if it's not painted in the way you would expect it to be painted, because that would be to confusing as well.

Of course, none of the space wolf players you play against field thunder cav, because you know, there are no thunder cav models.

What a great way to get a WAAC attitude in there...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:How is that in any way a "win at all costs" attitude? This has nothing to do with winning games..

Sure it does. You guys can't handle it, so you simply call it 'cheese'.

targetawg wrote:And I agree, grenade launchers are not meltas. It's lazy, and it's confusing. I've played ork players who do the "oh no, this boys shoota was a rokkit, and this big shoota is x". It's confusing as hell for your opponent, and takes away from the overall enjoyment.

If it's wysisyg, then I don't see an issue.

targetawg wrote:I don't expect you to buy "50 gazillion boxes". Mostly because: you don't need to. Most IG armies, even spammy, run 20. you can buy a box of 5 for less than 10 dollars from GAMES WORKSHOP. You could convert some as well from flamers, etc. There's a million tutorials. Put some effort into your army is all most people ask.

You surely can't expect to use a GW melta gun that was obviously scaled to be put on a space marine on an IG model? *GASP*

The HORROR!!! It would be so confusing?!?!?!

Convert them from flamers? THAT WOULD BE TO CONFUSING!?!?!

I mean surely, if a paint scheme would trip you up, then no doubt any kit bashing, converting would surely do the same?

Come on! We are only talking money and it's not even yours!!!

imweasel wrote:

Underachiever wrote:nope i expect them to use some forethought and convert them up. and you could you know think about having a balanced list rather than melta spamming to WAAC lists, what you using for your 3 Valks Shoe boxes?

Convert them up? My god!!!

That would be so...confusing. Wouldn't it? I mean it won't look exaclty like an IG melta gun. How in the world would you guys be able to tell the difference if it's not an IG melta gun on an IG model?

Heaven forbid if it's not painted in the way you would expect it to be painted, because that would be to confusing as well.

Of course, none of the space wolf players you play against field thunder cav, because you know, there are no thunder cav models.

What a great way to get a WAAC attitude in there...

sigh... ok you found me out i'm a power monger that claims victories by pointing out WYSIWYG errors! and why would converting them be such a hardship. you think i'm asking you to create the next David.

Underachiever wrote:sigh... ok you found me out i'm a power monger that claims victories by pointing out WYSIWYG errors! and why would converting them be such a hardship. you think i'm asking you to create the next David.

Because if someone has painted a space marine army in a cool purple and black with gold trim, you literally have no idea what type of marine you are playing against even with an army list in your hand provided by your opponent.

And because of that, those players are the WAAC players just because you state that it's confusing to you.

I see no way you could honestly argue that kit bashing would not be just as confusing.

Padded room. Stay. In. It's very scary in a game store.

If I have a theme, it's clear at the beginning what it is, it really shouldn't be a problem. If you need a justification, the grenade launchers are shooting meltabombs, and thus count as meltaguns. I personally think that's a very fair piece of fluff to use in order to save some cash, and make my life a bit easier. Similarly, I often decide my Veterans have 'assault lasguns' that count as shotguns, once again to make my life easier.

As long as I'm consistent in telling you what's what, I really don't understand how you can have a problem remembering.

ChrisWWII wrote:If I have a theme, it's clear at the beginning what it is, it really shouldn't be a problem. If you need a justification, the grenade launchers are shooting meltabombs, and thus count as meltaguns. I personally think that's a very fair piece of fluff to use in order to save some cash, and make my life a bit easier. Similarly, I often decide my Veterans have 'assault lasguns' that count as shotguns, once again to make my life easier.

As long as I'm consistent in telling you what's what, I really don't understand how you can have a problem remembering.

I would be absolutely fine with that as long as all the lasguns in your army are shotguns. This is not for friendly play but from a tournament view point.

Friendly play, I almost could care less.

ChrisWWII wrote:I
As long as I'm consistent in telling you what's what, I really don't understand how you can have a problem remembering.

Your understanding is not necessary for them to HAVE APROBLEM WITH YOUR GAAAAME!!1

imweasel wrote:

Underachiever wrote:sigh... ok you found me out i'm a power monger that claims victories by pointing out WYSIWYG errors! and why would converting them be such a hardship. you think i'm asking you to create the next David.

Because if someone has painted a space marine army in a cool purple and black with gold trim, you literally have no idea what type of marine you are playing against even with an army list in your hand provided by your opponent.

And because of that, those players are the WAAC players just because you state that it's confusing to you.

I see no way you could honestly argue that kit bashing would not be just as confusing.

Padded room. Stay. In. It's very scary in a game store.

Well not to be baited again... i think we will just have to disagree on some points and i think your mixing some thing others said with mine. I said it was lazy more than confusing.

imweasel wrote:

Underachiever wrote:nope i expect them to use some forethought and convert them up. and you could you know think about having a balanced list rather than melta spamming to WAAC lists, what you using for your 3 Valks Shoe boxes?

Convert them up? My god!!!

That would be so...confusing. Wouldn't it? I mean it won't look exaclty like an IG melta gun. How in the world would you guys be able to tell the difference if it's not an IG melta gun on an IG model?

Heaven forbid if it's not painted in the way you would expect it to be painted, because that would be to confusing as well.

Of course, none of the space wolf players you play against field thunder cav, because you know, there are no thunder cav models.

What a great way to get a WAAC attitude in there...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:How is that in any way a "win at all costs" attitude? This has nothing to do with winning games..

Sure it does. You guys can't handle it, so you simply call it 'cheese'.

targetawg wrote:And I agree, grenade launchers are not meltas. It's lazy, and it's confusing. I've played ork players who do the "oh no, this boys shoota was a rokkit, and this big shoota is x". It's confusing as hell for your opponent, and takes away from the overall enjoyment.

If it's wysisyg, then I don't see an issue.

targetawg wrote:I don't expect you to buy "50 gazillion boxes". Mostly because: you don't need to. Most IG armies, even spammy, run 20. you can buy a box of 5 for less than 10 dollars from GAMES WORKSHOP. You could convert some as well from flamers, etc. There's a million tutorials. Put some effort into your army is all most people ask.

You surely can't expect to use a GW melta gun that was obviously scaled to be put on a space marine on an IG model? *GASP*

The HORROR!!! It would be so confusing?!?!?!

Convert them from flamers? THAT WOULD BE TO CONFUSING!?!?!

I mean surely, if a paint scheme would trip you up, then no doubt any kit bashing, converting would surely do the same?

Come on! We are only talking money and it's not even yours!!!

1) I didn't call it cheesy, try to not put words in peoples mouths. What I find disrespectful, like you seem to find the term "cheesy" (which I didn't even use) is how you cavalierly sling around "WAAC" as a brand to invoke some sort of moral superiority on your part over the person you're speaking to.

2) A grenade launcher as a meltagun, as in my example, is not wyswig. Wysiwyg is defined as "What you see is what you get". If I see a grenade launcher, but get a melta, its not Wysiwig.

3) A meltagun of slightly different scale is not confusing. It's still a meltagun, drop the condescending attitude, it's rude.

4) Converting something from flamers, is not confusing. It's a clear conversion that you don't look at it and go "oh, that is XXXXX weapon that is used elsewhere in your army". If I see a grenade launcher, I expect a grenade launcher. If I see some sort of weird energy looking conversion, I know it's something else.

5) When did I ever mention anything about a paint scheme? (Hint: I didn't).

You should put more effort into not being rude and condescending, it detracts from a discussion a great deal, and to be honest, makes it appear that you're just trolling for a response.

Worglock wrote:
Kind of like when people on Dakka derided and degraded someone (and possibly advocated assault against) for not wanting to play against a codex they see as bad and not fun.

or maybe that was "different".

Could you be a little more vague? You see, I have an idea what you're talking about, and I'd really like not to.
; )

I don't know what issue you're referring to or if you're trying to subtly refer to me in some context regarding it.

Eric

imweasel wrote:
You do know that 'counts as' is in the brb? I know folks that used IG grenade launchers as melta weapons.

Your argument is approaching straw man and sounds like you can't adapt to anything in 40k.

Your example is a proxy and not counts as.

How are people out of one side of their face hole saying they are fully wysiwyg and then claiming proxies are counts as?

A grenade launcher is not counts as melts weapon. A unique weapon that has no clear weapon profile that could function close to a melts weapon is a count as melts weapon. Grenade launchers are grenade launchers, and claiming you have to buy 50 boxes to be wysiwyg is a straw man argument because we are all perfectly aware here that it is reasonably easy to get bits from cut up plastic sprues or thirdnparty weapons that make count as replacements.

So making up why it is justified to not model doesn't make proxies into valid counts as or wysiwyg. They are still proxies. This is why every marine armies fail. Because they claim they are wysiwyg but except when they are not.

It all boils down to consent, if you feel your opponent is taking advantage of you by throwing down the same ugly tac marines and using GK rules one week then BA then SW then something else, don't play that person. For instance there is a TFG who frequents the FLGS I play in who does this kind of thing constantly, he bought a handfull of second hand SM models that all look like gak, then uses them as BA,SW, GK and recently some horrid fandex from 1d4chan, however I never play this person, its simply a burden to put up with all the proxies and other nonsense. Believe me there are alot of other people out there who dont pull this kind of crap.

nkelsch wrote:So making up why it is justified to not model doesn't make proxies into valid counts as or wysiwyg. They are still proxies. This is why every marine armies fail. Because they claim they are wysiwyg but except when they are not.

Arguments here have been based on paint scheme. Codex hopping 'is not wysiwyg'.

Zerks can't be grey hunters because 'it's to confusing'. Zerks can wysiwyg grey hunters. Zerks can wysiwyg BA assault marines.

I guess that's 'fail' on the wysiwyg for space marines, eh?

Also from you definition, all counts as/kit bashing would be a proxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:What I find disrespectful, like you seem to find the term "cheesy" (which I didn't even use) is how you cavalierly sling around "WAAC" as a brand to invoke some sort of moral superiority on your part over the person you're speaking to.

No more so than the guy you were trying to defend.

targetawg wrote:2) A grenade launcher as a meltagun, as in my example, is not wyswig. Wysiwyg is defined as "What you see is what you get". If I see a grenade launcher, but get a melta, its not Wysiwig.

Counts as. Look it up.

targetawg wrote:3) A meltagun of slightly different scale is not confusing. It's still a meltagun, drop the condescending attitude, it's rude.

No more condescending than someone actually stating that a paint scheme would confuse them.

targetawg wrote:4) Converting something from flamers, is not confusing. It's a clear conversion that you don't look at it and go "oh, that is XXXXX weapon that is used elsewhere in your army". If I see a grenade launcher, I expect a grenade launcher. If I see some sort of weird energy looking conversion, I know it's something else.

Oh really? What exactly else would that be? Isn't that...confusing? Which is the whole basis of the argument of codex hopping?

targetawg wrote:5) When did I ever mention anything about a paint scheme? (Hint: I didn't).

My whole argument is if it's wysiwyg, then what's the problem. Folks start pulling rabbits out of their hats trying to state that (for whatever reason) codex hopping is 'confusing'.

targetawg wrote:You should put more effort into not being rude and condescending, it detracts from a discussion a great deal, and to be honest, makes it appear that you're just trolling for a response.

Try not to look down your nose at folks and we can call it even.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Worglock wrote:
Kind of like when people on Dakka derided and degraded someone (and possibly advocated assault against) for not wanting to play against a codex they see as bad and not fun.

or maybe that was "different".

Could you be a little more vague? You see, I have an idea what you're talking about, and I'd really like not to.
; )

I don't know what issue you're referring to or if you're trying to subtly refer to me in some context regarding it.

Eric

I wasn't referring to you specifically. You comment was in the right place at the wrong time for an "uncomfortable forum moment."

Personally I see no problem with codex hopping, as long as its in friendly games. When it comes to tournaments where any sort of prize is involved then id say play the army you have.

And I will be the first to admit that there are times where I am a total WAAC player, but when it comes to playing a game that I have invested money into there is a certain point where I say sorry, I don't have the money to buy every model that I want to use, but here is a model that has the same base size and similar load out and is easily distinguishable from the rest. And I will let anyone else do the same, and even get away with more of it, because I remember the day when my entire army was nothing more than slips of paper on my pool table, rushing the imperial guard models that through the "encouragement" of their commissar are now fighting like grey knights.

I got really lucky to come into a large collection of second hand marines, and am still in the process of stripping them and converting the paint to salamanders, because I like their rules and love the fluff. However I still maintain my love of Space Wolves and will play them from time to time. If you are upset that Wolf Lord is green and doesnt have his storm sheild and frost blade on the model, then I'm sorry, go play someone who does because I prefer playing the game second, and talking about the amazing story behind the armies I play.

I feel that the argument boils down to the opinions of hardcore and casual players. And also between those who can afford to buy every model for their army, and those who buy the ones they need. A good example of this is my friend whom I gave the Necron army I received through the same deal that got me my marines. There was a decent amount of models there, but they were mostly warriors and flayed ones. I'd never make him shell out the 60 some dollars to buy the 15 dollar wraithes he wants to use.

....I feel like I'm rambling now so I'll just let you all interject your opinions.

Claiming a grenade launcher as a meltagun is not WYSIWYG or counts-as, it is proxy. Pull that in a tourney and you can't really be upset if someone calls you on it.

I can see why people might have issues with codex hoppers, there have been some silly statements from both parties in this thread.

I guess I'm very lucky, where I play, the codex hoppers all have WYSIWYG (and not the imweasel kind) armies, and the other guys aren't grumpy neckbeard whiners.

Worglock wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Worglock wrote:
Kind of like when people on Dakka derided and degraded someone (and possibly advocated assault against) for not wanting to play against a codex they see as bad and not fun.

or maybe that was "different".

Could you be a little more vague? You see, I have an idea what you're talking about, and I'd really like not to.
; )

I don't know what issue you're referring to or if you're trying to subtly refer to me in some context regarding it.

Eric

I wasn't referring to you specifically. You comment was in the right place at the wrong time for an "uncomfortable forum moment."

Good, because I was at a total loss for recollection. LOL

I agree with your comment. Regardless of the circumstance, people should not deride and degrade people (and especially not advocate violence against!) someone for thinking differently.

They should just be shunned for that. ; )

Eric

imweasel wrote:

targetawg wrote:2) A grenade launcher as a meltagun, as in my example, is not wyswig. Wysiwyg is defined as "What you see is what you get". If I see a grenade launcher, but get a melta, its not Wysiwig.

Counts as. Look it up.

Please provide the definition you are using. Counts as are universally accepted event at WYSIWYG events. Proxies are not. Grenade launcher as a melta would never be accepted at a tourney or WYSIWYG events so it is not counts as.

The worst part of codex hopping is that you will not have as much time to understand the nuance and ability of your army and thus provide much less of a challenge when I play you.

nkelsch wrote:
Please provide the definition you are using. Counts as are universally accepted event at WYSIWYG events. Proxies are not. Grenade launcher as a melta would never be accepted at a tourney or WYSIWYG events so it is not counts as.

If I say that in my fluff, my army uses grenade launchers shooting meltabombs for antitank purpouses, and thus I use the melta gun rules to represent this, the grenade launcher would be a very nice 'count as' melta bomb launcher thingy. As long as its consistent, e.g. ALL grenade launchers are really melta bomb launchers, or there is some very obvious difference between a regular grenade launcher, and a melta bomb launcher, there shouldn't be a problem.