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I see the church is selling indulgences again.

I have already nailed my worms to the gates in protest Moopy...

wait...

not sure if I have that quite right?

I'm trying to imagine nailing a worm to something. It seems messy and difficult.

Moopy wrote:I see the church is selling indulgences again.

So... a retail store giving away a small concession in an isolated game is equivalent to the Catholic Church selling indulgences? Wow.

Also, to all those who say this will never fly... when I was a hobby manager we did this sort of thing all the time. The only people who ever complained about it were generally considered to be "hobby douches" by the community. Their words, not mine. If your goal is fun, this sort of thing is no issue. If your goal is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women, perhaps you shouldn't be playing a game that is rated for ages 12+.

Actually, that much for a reroll proves PT Barnum was right.

Again... the reroll doesn't cost anything. PT Barnum would likely have no comment regarding a person spending 100euro for 100euro worth of gaming items and receiving a one time, minor advantage for said game.

Dear Marjorie,

My goal is to have fun
But I think re roll chits are a rubbish idea and have said so.

Does this make me a hobby douche?

Yours
Angsty of Nether Wuthering

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Does this make me a hobby douche?

To a lot of people, yes it does. To others, it does not. I don't actually play very often (more in it for the fluff and painting), and I'm not likely to ever play with you, so I couldn't care less.

Also, it's not a cheat if it's endorsed by the company that makes the game at company sponsored locations and events. If you don't want to use the re-roll, simply don't participate in said company events.

Really?
A lot of people think I am a douche because my opinion about this differs from yours?

tut tut old thing, jolly poor form to name call and hide behind a group of anonymous gamers.

At least have the balls to take responsibility for your accusations and take responsibility for your words.

You clearly have no idea how promotions work, kriswall.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Really?
A lot of people think I am a douche because my opinion about this differs from yours?

tut tut old thing, jolly poor form to name call and hide behind a group of anonymous gamers.

At least have the balls to take responsibility for your accusations and take responsibility for your words.

I know this may come as a complete and total shock, but yes, people tend to not like people with differing opinions. I don't know you. If we met, we might become great friends. We might not. I have no idea. It's unlikely to happen.

Also, I didn't name call anyone. Reread my post. I said the community I managed called certain types of people "hobby douches". I never used that term while working. It would have been unprofessional and bad business to insult any market segment. In my personal gaming, I tend to be fiercely competitive. If someone forgets to shoot with a unit or forgets to roll for reserves, tough. Not my problem. I don't give mulligans. But this isn't about my personal gaming habits.

Also, on a lighter note... I am watching Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares right now and he just used the taking the piss out of someone phrase and I knew what it meant! lol... the internet is good for something after all!

Kriswall wrote:
Also, I didn't name call anyone. Reread my post. I said the community I managed called certain types of people "hobby douches". I never used that term while working. It would have been unprofessional and bad business to insult any market segment. In my personal gaming, I tend to be fiercely competitive. If someone forgets to shoot with a unit or forgets to roll for reserves, tough. Not my problem. I don't give mulligans. But this isn't about my personal gaming habits.

And some people could classify you under the "hobby douche" label. So what?

So because people's opions matter they are Hobby douches? That's just ridiculous You know that people will also call you a hobby douche and will because they don't agree with you're opion, anyone who lacks the justification and a valid reason to call someone a douche because they think someone's opion is not their liking is a fool.

Kriswall wrote: If your goal is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women, perhaps you shouldn't be playing a game that is rated for ages 12+.

I like how fairness and balance and playing by the rules is always associated with "WAAC" or "hobby douchery". Just fething nice.

And I'm not sure I see why the age rating matters. A lot of people take chess seriously and I don't remember that game being higher than 12+.

You are accussing me, and by implication others, of being a hobby douce. It is not sufficient to put it in inverted commas and try to remain distanced from the comment.

I play games for fun, but that has been ignored by "the community" for which you are speaking. Which is what they presumably do.
Apart from which, some people enjoy tournies and taking games far more seriously than I ever will.
Not something I understand myself, but that is their hobby and passion.

Neither you nor I have any right to dictate attitudes.
They are not hobby douches for taking the game seriously.

To be fair I think he was just trying to prove that this idea might be more popular than people are willing to believe, and citing his own personal experience as a manager in a hobby store. He clearly doesn't believe that way, he's just saying that the majority of people in his community were idiots and ate that crap up.

Well, "clearly"...I'm honestly not sure what Kriswall thinks. At one point he says "If you try winning games you shouldn't be playing a game with a 12+ rating" (which in my opinion is bs, you can't judge a game based on it's age rating and use that as proof that the game shouldn't be taken seriously, like I said chess sure as hell isn't listed as being an 18+ game and there are people who play that competitively for sure), and then goes on to say that he personally is fiercely competitive and doesn't allow bs like re-rolls and take-backs.

Well I am so competitive I got beaten by a 9 tear old on Thursday cos I allowed him re rolls and reinforcements
It was a hoot!

And to be fair from what I recall Krisswell's system was a lot more sensible than the one in Spain if I understood correctly.

To take an example, is it reasonable to expect someone who has spent 80-90 euros, to buy a blister or two more than they otherwise would, just to have a ticket for a re roll?
Know I wouldn't
on the other hand a more tangible offer of a model/discount would be more of an incentive to spend a little more cash.

Spending extra cash for a re roll ticket sounds like money for old rope to me.

The only peole it could possibly have any appeal to are the customers that were going to spend a ton anyways. This is why I fail to see what inducement there is in the promo.

But what do I know. I only worked in an art store. We used to give sketchbooks if you spent over a given amount. It represented 10% of the purchase value to the customer iirc.
On the other hand it only cost the store its cost value.

If someone was already going to spend that amount then it is still a goodwill gesture and made up for by people spending a bit more to get the sketchbook, cos they are useful things.

Have sketchbook, will travel.

Jesus Christ. I don't know why I try to reason with you people. Here are my points. I'll spell it out so even the slow people can understand.

1. Giving away re-rolls with a large purchase is a perfectly valid marketing tool.
2. If you don't like it or think it's some form of cheating, play elsewhere or agree with your opponent not to use the re-roll beforehand.
3. People who prioritize winning over having fun are considered douches by my former hobby community.
4. I prioritize winning over having fun. My wife gives me crap about it all the time.

Also... Sidstyler... I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I never said people in my community were idiots. If you're going to quote someone, use their words.

Now we are slow to understand
way to win hearts and minds

Sketchbooks are a necessity for most artists, and there's not going to be a huge variation or possible selection for the customer.

'Blisters' for 40k, however, can go from single characters to fairly big things like Avatars. There's no real 'single set value' that can be applied to blisters, and at the same time there's a huge selection from Eldar Warlocks to Zoanthropes, etc.

Putting it bluntly, there's not that big of a comparison between "Free sketchbooks!" and "Free blister".

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:To take an example, is it reasonable to expect someone who has spent 80-90 euros, to buy a blister or two more than they otherwise would, just to have a ticket for a re roll?
Know I wouldn't
on the other hand a more tangible offer of a model/discount would be more of an incentive to spend a little more cash.
...
The only peole it could possibly have any appeal to are the customers that were going to spend a ton anyways. This is why I fail to see what inducement there is in the promo.
...
But what do I know. I only worked in an art store. We used to give sketchbooks if you spent over a given amount. It represented 10% of the purchase value to the customer iirc.
On the other hand it only cost the store its cost value.

As you haven't sold to gamers, I'll give you some insight. Assume a customer is at the 90euro mark. I say, "Hey, you're only 10euro away from getting a re-roll in our event on Saturday. Is there anything you might need? Glue? New paint? That bitchin' new Finecast piece you've been looking at?" You'd be surprised how many people look around and add enough to hit the threshold for a re-roll. In my experience, maybe 9 out of 10 if they regularly play in the store - 0 out of 10 if they don't. As a store operator it's a good thing because it generates sales without costing anything.

Vladsimpaler wrote:What's ONE re-roll going to do?

It can turn the tide of a game, if used wisely.

A sketchbook also comes in many forms and price ranges.

It surely cannot be beyond the wit of a GW employee
to limit the value of the blister. In anycase, that was purely used as "an example" and not prescriptive.

I dunno, some of my customers might have been gamers.

No I wouldn't be surprised as there is nowt as queer as folk. But as I said above from what I understand of how you ran the promo, customers weren't having to spend a ton to get that roll, and it seemed a more reasonable approach.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that's my personal opinion I injected in there. I think they sound like idiots. Though looking back at how I had that worded I can see why you'd think that way, so I apologize for the confusion.

As for your post:

1. Maybe, I won't argue over it's validity. But I'm saying that I think GW is making a mistake, cheapening its own game and sending out the wrong message.
2. I will indeed play elsewhere, and if my opponent tries to force the re-roll on me then I'll avoid playing with that person.
3. Why can't you do both? Why does Dakka and the 40k community in general insist on thinking in black and white? I play to win and I aim to have fun in the process. I would prefer not to play with people who aren't even going to try, and will berate me for not letting them win, like fething children.
4. Well as long as you play with like-minded people I don't see the harm, but like I said, I personally think it's possible to do both.

on the other hand a more tangible offer of a model/discount would be more of an incentive to spend a little more cash.

Exactly, and this is what some other companies do. Gives the customer a real benefit without cheapening your product and tarnishing your reputation in the process. And it would probably draw in a much bigger crowd since I'm sure lots of people would love to get a few extra models instead of a stupid re-roll.

The only peole it could possibly have any appeal to are the customers that were going to spend a ton anyways. This is why I fail to see what inducement there is in the promo.

And I don't like the message that sends, either. I don't think you should be able to affect the outcome of a game simply because you have deeper pockets than your opponent. Even though one could argue that a single die-roll isn't exactly game-changing, not only are you wrong because anything that affects the game like that shouldn't be allowed in the first place (unless a character or rule grants the ability to re-roll something obviously) no matter how minor it might seem, but sometimes games do come down to a single roll, and the ability to have that kind of influence at a tournament of all things is pure bs. I wouldn't ever attend an event if I knew this kind of crap was going to be allowed, unless it's something like the event someone mentioned earlier on, which was meant for charity and had a laid-back attitude.

I think it's okay to take a game seriously. I also think it's okay to play a game with a silly attitude and not care about what you're doing at all. And on top of that, I think it's possible to be a gamer and play both ways, having a fun "bs" mode and a serious "competitive" mode and busting either one out when it's appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Sketchbooks are a necessity for most artists, and there's not going to be a huge variation or possible selection for the customer.

'Blisters' for 40k, however, can go from single characters to fairly big things like Avatars. There's no real 'single set value' that can be applied to blisters, and at the same time there's a huge selection from Eldar Warlocks to Zoanthropes, etc.

Putting it bluntly, there's not that big of a comparison between "Free sketchbooks!" and "Free blister".

I beg to differ, because sketchbooks do in fact come in different sizes with different values...for example, from Dick Blick. I clicked on a few random links and saw no less than three different sizes for each one.

The prices don't seem to vary quite as much as GW blisters do (the aforementioned avatar being $38...wow that's ridiculous), but I think the comparison is more valid than you're giving it credit for.

Also, seriously, how hard is it to say "blister valued at $20 or less"? You're making it sound like such a promotion would just be physically impossible for GW because of the wildly varying value of blister packs, but you could very easily solve that problem by setting a limit for the value of the free blister. $20 or less would be equivalent to one character, and not anything really big like the Avatar, either. Problem solved. :\

Sidstyler wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sketchbooks are a necessity for most artists, and there's not going to be a huge variation or possible selection for the customer.

'Blisters' for 40k, however, can go from single characters to fairly big things like Avatars. There's no real 'single set value' that can be applied to blisters, and at the same time there's a huge selection from Eldar Warlocks to Zoanthropes, etc.

Putting it bluntly, there's not that big of a comparison between "Free sketchbooks!" and "Free blister".

I beg to differ, because sketchbooks do in fact come in different sizes with different values...for example, from Dick Blick. I clicked on a few random links and saw no less than three different sizes for each one.

The prices don't seem to vary quite as much as GW blisters do (the aforementioned avatar being $38...wow that's ridiculous), but I think the comparison is more valid than you're giving it credit for.

Also, seriously, how hard is it to say "blister valued at $20 or less"? You're making it sound like such a promotion would just be physically impossible for GW because of the wildly varying value of blister packs, but you could very easily solve that problem by setting a limit for the value of the free blister. $20 or less would be equivalent to one character, and not anything really big like the Avatar, either. Problem solved. :\

You're exactly right that it would be easy to say "Blister valued at $20 or less"--but then think of how much fething whining we'd have here.

"What? No fair! X players can get a FREE character that is actually worth using if they buy a Battleforce!" styled comments galore.

There's no winning, don't you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should further clarify:
There are plenty of characters under $20. Many of them are just generic, filler ones that I'm not sure how many people would actually want.

Can't resist pun...

This thread makes me "roll" with laughter...

I could see someone maybe being upset if they spent a lot of money on product a week or two before the sale and didn't know about it, possibly feeling "cheated" out of their freebie, but that kind of thing happens with every sale I imagine. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people get annoyed when they buy a game on Steam, and then see it go on sale a few weeks later for a deep discount.

Personally though I think more people would be grateful for that kind of thing than not, which is why stores usually do sales in the first place, they bring in more traffic than they would have gotten otherwise and the few people that would be upset about it are overshadowed by all the others coming in to spend money just because of the sale. Even if those few people were so upset they missed out on their free blister that they quit the hobby (which I really doubt), why would GW care, they got that money already, and GW is all about short term profits, right?

Kriswall wrote:Jesus Christ. I don't know why I try to reason with you people. Here are my points. I'll spell it out so even the slow people can understand.

1. Giving away re-rolls with a large purchase is a perfectly valid marketing tool.
2. If you don't like it or think it's some form of cheating, play elsewhere or agree with your opponent not to use the re-roll beforehand.
3. People who prioritize winning over having fun are considered douches by my former hobby community.
4. I prioritize winning over having fun. My wife gives me crap about it all the time.

Also... Sidstyler... I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I never said people in my community were idiots. If you're going to quote someone, use their words.

I don't know why you're bothering either.

People who think it isn't a valid marketing tool think it isn't a valid marketing tool.

You have said that makes them "hobby douches".

That's never going to change their minds about it.

There is no point continuing the discussion.