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That's not the point. When I meant the Imperium has won, I didn't mean that the Imperium has defeated all it's enemies. It's similar to saying that the Orks have won the battle for survival (which they have), but they're not the dominant species in the galaxy. The same with the Imperium. All it's enemies try to destroy and replace, but they can't because doing so would end 40k, so it's not gonna happen. No matter how many battles we lose, the Imperium cannot and will not be destroyed. It's a stalemate, but the Imperium has won already in it's goal to ensure Mankind's survival and continued galactic dominance.

Tadashi wrote:That's not the point. When I meant the Imperium has won, I didn't mean that the Imperium has defeated all it's enemies. It's similar to saying that the Orks have won the battle for survival (which they have), but they're not the dominant species in the galaxy. The same with the Imperium. All it's enemies try to destroy and replace, but they can't because doing so would end 40k, so it's not gonna happen. No matter how many battles we lose, the Imperium cannot and will not be destroyed. It's a stalemate, but the Imperium has won already in it's goal to ensure Mankind's survival and continued galactic dominance.

So....
You mean the IoM has won, but has not won.

Your parameters of victory can apply to every race in the game, all their enemies try to destroy them , all of them survive, Necrons, Tau,Orks, Chaos,Nids, Eldar, all come under constant attacks and all survive, all have the Goal to ensure their own survival, and no one has galactic dominance, since that very word entails control and domain over the galaxy.

and in your own statement you contradict yourself, saying its a stalemate, but the IoM has won because its surviving, sorry, surviving is not a victory, just a existance. no sale.

Imperium of Man - to ensure Mankind's survival and galactic dominance - successful
Chaos - to destroy the Imperium and subdue the galaxy for Chaos - not gonna happen
Tyranids - to consume all life - not gonna happen
Eldar - to survive and restore the ancient Eldar Empire - first goal success, second goal, not gonna happen
Dark Eldar - to continue to pillage and torment the galaxy - successful
Orks - to survive and get a good fight - complete success
Tau - to spread the Greater Good across the galaxy - not gonna happen
Necrons - to stop the Tyranids and ensure Necrontyr dominance - first goal guaranteed success, second goal, not gonna happen

And when I say dominance, I don't mean it becomes the sole race in the galaxy. I meant that it was the race with the biggest influence in the galaxy of 40k.

what ever helps you maintain your little world, hey enjoy!

I have always noticed though the more someone says something won't happen, the more likely it is to happen.....

but you cannot reason with fanatics.

Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And all the races are in the same boat, no victory or defeat, only war....just like the advertising says.

Space Crusader wrote:Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.

Doomed?
Doomed are the minions of chaos...

The IoM can split and reforge.
Take the etherals of of the Tau and we will see how this unity works out.

BTW, Orks are constantly split, as are Eldar , Necrons, and chaos itself.
Maybe united space elfs wouldn't be that bad, but orks , crons and chaos better stay separated...for the sake of the Galaxy.
Thinking of it, unified necrons would provide order and unity, so just pay tribute and go your merry ways doesn't look to shoddy.

Certainly next edition could mix up the stale brew that is 40 k now, the stasis vaults opening and chaos emerge again trying to conquer us all.
Until they get it wrong and 40k turns into LotR in spase, looking forward to see the disbelief of the Tau tested when the sky is filled with spiky things and reality folds under the strain of warp rifts..

Yes, but if it falls, there goes 40k, so no the Imperium will not fall. And I don't have unsanctioned psychic abilities, any more than a Sniper Drone is controlled by an Abominable Intelligence.

and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.

I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.

But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.

When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.

So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.

I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.

But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.

When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.

So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.

Preachin' to the choir, mate.

I really like the IoM(more or less the old ideals when the Emperor was around) but have to break it that its prob going to fall,crumble. etc. Its not a all at once thing. It also doesn't mean that other races will be affected or that every world of Man just suddenly gets assaulted by Daemons and such. Just that the Governing body of the Imperium can no longer hold it together(cause of corruption, greed,etc. things alrady rife in the IoM) so worlds start governing themselves and slip away one at a time. I can actually see a good progressing story line being made by GW using the Tau as the new star race of the universe. I will of course stay ever faithful the the human race ....or chaos

I think that GW should bring back the Squats and make them the dominant faction.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.

I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.

But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.

When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.

So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.

This. +1!

I really like the Wordbearer vs Tau idea. It is the perfect opposite of ideals. Brilliant stuff.

And one faction has already won: The Orks.

The Orks "objective" is to fight all the time. In 40k there is fighting all the time. The Orks have achieved their ultimate purpose, and thus are the winners of 40k.

Space Crusader wrote:Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.

Unfortunately for you, that shows how resilient and powerful the Imperium is since it got reunified again .

Lord Chiasson wrote:I really like the IoM(more or less the old ideals when the Emperor was around) but have to break it that its prob going to fall,crumble. etc. Its not a all at once thing. It also doesn't mean that other races will be affected or that every world of Man just suddenly gets assaulted by Daemons and such. Just that the Governing body of the Imperium can no longer hold it together(cause of corruption, greed,etc. things alrady rife in the IoM) so worlds start governing themselves and slip away one at a time. I can actually see a good progressing story line being made by GW using the Tau as the new star race of the universe. I will of course stay ever faithful the the human race ....or chaos

Imperium worlds already rule themselves.

CpatTom wrote:I really like the Wordbearer vs Tau idea. It is the perfect opposite of ideals. Brilliant stuff.

And one faction has already won: The Orks.

The Orks "objective" is to fight all the time. In 40k there is fighting all the time. The Orks have achieved their ultimate purpose, and thus are the winners of 40k.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:Like I said. I like the slingshots.

How does that work, actually?

The idea is basically an extension of how they currently do things. It's a massive space structure with several jump drives (I call tau warp drives jump drives because they don't work like a war drive) They press down on the barrier between the material and the wap over a massive area around the ship. Then they let it go. As the barrier snaps back into place it launches the ship really really far.

Tadashi wrote:
Ah, and once again we hear about the galaxy-shattering railgun. And Tau fans wonder why Imperial fans get all irritated about them. And how many times do we have to say that the Tau can't use warp technology without psykers. The Immaterium is a psychic realm. Without psykers, you can't understand it. That's why the Tau can't fully use warp technology to it's full potential. As for Germany, yes, they overreached themselves in Russia. Same with the Tau. Sooner or later, they're going to to overreach into Imperial space, and the Imperium will retake those worlds such that the Tau can't reinforce until it's too late, or by the time their reinforcements arrive, they'll be walking into a trap.

Have you forgot that the Tau Empire isn't just the Tau? Several of their allies could have psykers.

Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.

Still, there is much talk of 'best' tech in the universe. I think that is a fundamentally flawed position to take. Each race had developed their tech along different lines and different priorities. As a result each race has one or more fields of tech that they are better than the rest of the universe in and a few areas where they are woefully inadequate.

Have the Tau peaked in their technological development? The fluff says no, but they may be close. The next codex may give us some insights into where things wind up. Perhaps there was a great breakthrough, or perhaps the Demi-urg have collaborated in exchange for entering the Empire as equals rather than subjects.

If they develop fast FTL rather than their current slow FTL travel it will certainly open up great advantages to them and great potential dangers. The Tau have already demonstrated the ability to outmanoeuvre the Imperium in space over short distance (Shadowsun was able to watch hit and run attacks across several different worlds without the Imperium being able to catch her) so a longer legged fast FTL could allow them to strike almost anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum.

The fact that the Tau are predominately active in the Ultima Segmentum povides good long term opportunities for them as well. That s the are in which the light of the Astronomicon is dimmest (and growing dimmer all the time) so Imperium Warp Travel is at it's most unreliable there. Given that Imperium worlds are not usually self sufficient this means that the Tau may eventually become the defacto power in the sector just through havign better lines of communication.

Assuming they do develop fast FTL to replace their current slow FTL. I see this as an eventuality, but it requires the timeline to progress considerably. We may see it if 6th edition rewrites the galaxy as rumoured.

Jefffar wrote:Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.

Gue'vesa(how I hate that word, hate I tell you!) are stated to be the descendants of Imperial Guard or former Imperial planets so I don't know if they actually have ships. Demiurg, IIRC, don't use the Warp as far as I know.

Still, there is much talk of 'best' tech in the universe. I think that is a fundamentally flawed position to take. Each race had developed their tech along different lines and different priorities. As a result each race has one or more fields of tech that they are better than the rest of the universe in and a few areas where they are woefully inadequate.

Have the Tau peaked in their technological development? The fluff says no, but they may be close. The next codex may give us some insights into where things wind up. Perhaps there was a great breakthrough, or perhaps the Demi-urg have collaborated in exchange for entering the Empire as equals rather than subjects.

If they develop fast FTL rather than their current slow FTL travel it will certainly open up great advantages to them and great potential dangers. The Tau have already demonstrated the ability to outmanoeuvre the Imperium in space over short distance (Shadowsun was able to watch hit and run attacks across several different worlds without the Imperium being able to catch her) so a longer legged fast FTL could allow them to strike almost anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum.

The fact that the Tau are predominately active in the Ultima Segmentum povides good long term opportunities for them as well. That s the are in which the light of the Astronomicon is dimmest (and growing dimmer all the time) so Imperium Warp Travel is at it's most unreliable there. Given that Imperium worlds are not usually self sufficient this means that the Tau may eventually become the defacto power in the sector just through havign better lines of communication.

Assuming they do develop fast FTL to replace their current slow FTL. I see this as an eventuality, but it requires the timeline to progress considerably. We may see it if 6th edition rewrites the galaxy as rumoured.

I can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.

can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.

The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?

KplKeegan wrote:

can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.

The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?

Actually they fight 'nids rather successfully. Shadowsun managed to destroy an entire splinter fleet with no losses to her own forces.

KplKeegan wrote:

can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.

The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?

But Ultramar is in the Ultima Segmentum so unless you mean the Ultramarines and Ultramar are just going to sit there and do nothing as the Ultima Segmentum is taken over by the Tau. There will be a confrontation. And according to the latest Dark Eldar codex, they don't seem to be doing too well and even more Nids are on their way so again bad luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.

The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?

Actually they fight 'nids rather successfully. Shadowsun managed to destroy an entire splinter fleet with no losses to her own forces.

So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.

A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.

Space Crusader wrote:A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.

Source? Its really beautiful how you Tau fans continuously howl about being attacked by fans of the other factions and yet when we have a nice civil discussion you spout out offensive nonsense. The Imperial plan of dealing with the Nids is strong defenses, not throwing men at the Nids by charging at them and if you think it is, it cause you're a fool.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:But Ultramar is in the Ultima Segmentum so unless you mean the Ultramarines and Ultramar are just going to sit there and do nothing as the Ultima Segmentum is taken over by the Tau. There will be a confrontation. And according to the latest Dark Eldar codex, they don't seem to be doing too well and even more Nids are on their way so again bad luck.

Unless the Ultramarines are of Legion strength, there's little they can do about aggressive Tau expansion. The Segmentum is vast, and Ultramar is but a blip amongst a sea of blips. Once Tau find away to make their ships faster, colonizing abused and forgotten Imperial Worlds in the upper Segmentum won't be far off.

Crowing about one incident in one occurance in the Dark Eldar Codex does not mean everything isn't going to well. And the Tau can manage the Tyranids quite well, even without the myriad of Forgeworlds and Imperial Guard regiments the Imperium needs, or pull a stupid stunt like the Octavian Wars. Good job Inquisition, you signed your own death certificate on that one.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.

So should the Imperium. Why are you bringing up a mutual threat between both races? And the Imperium deals with Splinter Fleets in the most ass-backwards way possible.

KplKeegan wrote:
Unless the Ultramarines are of Legion strength, there's little they can do about aggressive Tau expansion. The Segmentum is vast, and Ultramar is but a blip amongst a sea of blips. Once Tau find away to make their ships faster, colonizing abused and forgotten Imperial Worlds in the upper Segmentum won't be far off.

Crowing about one incident in one occurance in the Dark Eldar Codex does not mean everything isn't going to well.

Do you have any evidence that everything is going well other than blah blah the Tau own everything cause I say so?

And the Tau can manage the Tyranids quite well, even without the myriad of Forgeworlds and Imperial Guard regiments the Imperium needs, or pull a stupid stunt like the Octavian Wars. Good job Inquisition, you signed your own death certificate on that one.

The Imperium faces off against Tyranid Hivefleets. So far the Tau deal with splinter fleets. Next, Inquisitor Krptmann did what he did on his own, not with the approval of the Inqusition. Please read the fluff, your spouting of fluff is ill-informed.

So should the Imperium. Why are you bringing up a mutual threat between both races?

The Imperium is dealing with both the Nids and a Chaos invasion at the same time. I brought up the Nids cause if the Tau expand further they run into the same problems the Imperium suffers under of concentration of forces.

And the Imperium deals with Splinter Fleets in the most ass-backwards way possible.

Evidence?


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Here it is from the codex:


Doesn't sound like the Tau are pwning anyone to me.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Imperium faces off against Tyranid Hivefleets. So far the Tau deal with splinter fleets. Next, Inquisito Krptmann did what he did on his own, not with the approval of the Inqusition. Please read the fluff, your spouting of fluff is ill-informed.

Inquisitor Kryptman, using his authority as an Inquisitor of the Ordos Xenos still caused the Octavian War, regardless if he did it of his own accord or not.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Do you have any evidence that everything is going well other than blah blah the Tau own everything cause I say so?

The Second and Third Sphere Expansions? Unlike the whopping 6 Codicies you Emperor-Botherers get, the Tau have to wait a while for a fluff-update.



There's no point in arguing over this anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall with an Aquila on it.

KplKeegan wrote:
Inquisitor Kryptman, using his authority as an Inquisitor of the Ordos Xenos still caused the Octavian War, regardless if he did it of his own accord or not.

Such a fallacy. Inquisitor Kryptman was thrown out of the Inquisition for his action of mass planetary genocide before he implemented his plan for Octavious. Everything he did was him using his contacts on his own.

The Second and Third Sphere Expansions? Unlike the whopping 6 Codicies you Emperor-Botherers get, the Tau have to wait a while for a fluff-update.

Fail. I'm an Ork player and only have 3 codexes in my hardrive which are the current Ork codex, Tau codex and the Dark Eldar codex.

There's no point in arguing over this anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall with an Aquila on it.

All I see is a Tau fanboy running away .

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:
And the Imperium deals with Splinter Fleets in the most ass-backwards way possible.

Evidence?

Dawn of War II
Gorgon
Colossus
Jormungandr

Brother Coa wrote:

Dawn of War II
Gorgon
Colossus
Jormungandr

Um....thanks for providing names. I was hoping it would be KplKeegan who would do this work.

However, how is DOW 2 evidence of anything seeing as the entire war effort in that region was complicated due to Eldar manipulation, an Ork Waaaagh, a Corrupt politician being a douche and the SM fleet being away(no doubt something done by Kyras).

ps: I'll research the others btw.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.

Yes they do, but how many times has the Imperium defeated a splinter fleet without taking a single casualty? To my knowledge, none.

The fact that the Tau can engage a splinter fleet successfully without suffering any losses indicates that the Tau are quite capable of fighting the Tyranids and winning handily.

I'm sure Tau Darkstar Warheads play a part of the anti-Tyranid strategy.

Now a protracted war with the 'nids is certainly looming and it will put the Tau forces to the test (as noted from another unnamed source they are calling in mercenaries and any other assistance they can. Perhaps they may even arrange a little enemy of my enemy is my friend action with either the Ultramarines (not likely), Eldar (reasonably likely) or Necrons (crazy talk, I know). However nowhere is it indicated that the current fear experienced in the Empire is based on a real possibility of the Empire being wiped out.