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enfernux wrote:i sacrifice a squad of 80pt dragons, for a 250+ heavy. Deal?

Sure, but look at it more broadly. Once those dragons slag something, they're done. The question then becomes do you have more dragons than I have land raiders? Once you get to 4 land raiders, the answer must be "no". Furthermore, you're using up all those elite slots which I know have other uses in an eldar army.

Plus, it isn't so simple as you put it. The dragons still need to get there, and the other person still has twin linked lascannons and access to smoke. It's not so guaranteed as you're describing it.

Actually, I'd not that 80 points is off. You've got to spend 80 points for the dragons and then how many points for the obligatory serpent?

enfernux wrote:If a LR is up against a shooty DE - my favorite, cheep and is overdice - 13 dl hits WILL kill it

Once again, you're grossly oversimplifying. Yes, if I just sat there out in front with no cover and never moved or shot or did anything, then yeah, LRs would have a tough matchup.

Last I checked, though, dark lances come on vehicles that twin linked lascannons blow away like a fart on the wind, while a lance weapon, even in the hands of someone with BS4 only wrecks the raider on a .07

Really, you should be talking about how a LR army will take down a DE raider spam army with shooting, not the other way around.

Funny story. The Eldar really don't have anything better to do with Elite slots than load up on Fire Dragons. I don't remember the last time I saw a Mech Eldar list that didn't have 3 squads of them.

As for matching up with with DE, I'd argue that a bunch of Godhammer loaded LRs is not a good match for a darklight spam army. DE still have the maneuverability to find the open firing lanes they need to negate cover, smoke only lasts one turn,

In addition, the LR's use of sponson mounted weapons means that your own gargantuan tank hulls will constantly be blocking your firing lanes, especially once the first of them gets immobilized or wrecked.

Land Raiders also have a special rule that makes it impossible roll above a 2 on a penetrating or a 4 on a glancing.

enfernux wrote:then we'll just have to be sneaky vs black templar. Or trying to get 4 MCs in range, or 5 wraithguards from serpent 3-4glance 5-6 pen.

I wouldn't worry too much. Its an expensive upgrade that usually only sees use when people list tailor. If they bring it you can just sac your haywire wyches if you are DE, and hope for the best with fire prisms if you aren't.

Ailaros wrote:while a lance weapon, even in the hands of someone with BS4 only wrecks the raider on a .07

Really, you should be talking about how a LR army will take down a DE raider spam army with shooting, not the other way around.

13lances:
13*4/6*1/2*1/6=0.72 on glance true
13*4/6*1/3*1/2=1.44 on a pen to immo or better

Joey wrote:Land Raiders also have a special rule that makes it impossible roll above a 2 on a penetrating or a 4 on a glancing.

yeah, make MEQ more op. cant do better than stunned on a LR you got to be joking-.-

notabot187 wrote:

enfernux wrote:then we'll just have to be sneaky vs black templar. Or trying to get 4 MCs in range, or 5 wraithguards from serpent 3-4glance 5-6 pen.

I wouldn't worry too much. Its an expensive upgrade that usually only sees use when people take a Land Raider Crusader as Black Templars. If they bring it you can just sac your haywire wyches if you are DE, and hope for the best with fire prisms if you aren't.

Fixed that for you. No, really, it shuts down Dark Eldar ranged anti-tank against the LRC completely, more or less forces Eldar to send in kamikaze dragons and feths a bit with Zoanthropes, who admittedly can still pen. As for "sac your haywire witches", yeah, good luck. They're not gonna be the first target of everything, right?

@Allmighty: yeah, like those wytches wont be in transport and wont be given cover until they can longe at the raider. takes more deception, but can be done. Now back to topic:
Imo, LRs are tough, but not unbeatable. Actually, you can just wipe out smaller unites cause of speed, leave the LR for last, or try 1-2 shots at it per turn, maybe getting shaken sometimes, closeing down its shootyness for one round. But, once again i have to styte: LRs ARE tough.

I love and hate LR's.

Mainly due to the fact that no matter who you play or what forum on the internet you go to, players will almost undoubtedly say in a smug voice or post "Well I take <insert random anti-av14-unit here> so I don't have to worry about your LR."

It grinds my nerves so much. Like 4 chimeras with meltavets in them along with 3 vendettas, the player says that LR's are ineffective against him, yet ALL I HAVE TO DO is knock those vendettas down, an easy task for any SM army, and you're toast UNTIL I SAY SO in charge range.

Try driving your av12 meltabunkers up to my LR, I'll be glad to introduce you to the rest of MY army of salamanders with Vulkan at the head, and as many lascannons and drop podding and scout moving melta torpedos as anyone could shake a stick at.


TL;DR my little emotional rant, don't let anyone tell you that LR's are useless just because of the meta and meltaspam, it's completely unfounded and only religious mathhammer nuts say so because on paper, you can't calculate the fear factor or the randomness of all dice rolled.

Yeah, I agree. AV 14 can be very resilient. It sometimes all depends on dice rolls. I remember playing an army with 2 land raiders once with my shooty CSM army (had a fair bit of lascannon shooting).

In my first round, my lascannons took out one of his landraiders already. But his second one, despite so much shooting from all my lascannons, lasted all the way until I think round 5 or something. I was lucky he immobilised himself going through terrain or else its deadly cargo of terminators with storm shields would have definitely reached my battle line a lot sooner.

On the CSM land raiders specifically, think about the Kharn Bomb (which I've seen used effectively here and there). Just put Kharn by himself into his own land raider either in a balanced one-raider list, or as a cheaper alternative to a third berzerker/possessed unit.

If you're only adding a single landraider to an otherwise balanced chaos list, then it's like a budget deathstar for 400 points and change. Kharn can rip through most non-vehicle units by himself, and has abilities that are complimentary to--but cheaper than, and against some opponents better than--the capabilities of a berzerker squad. So the opponent can't ignore the Kharn bomb, which is really the point of a deathstar.

Also Kharn comes with a free icon, so you can use the land raider's huge footprint to extent your termicide/daemon drop zone when he's embarked.

And he fulfills your obligatory HQ slot.

Chaos LRs don't work very well anymore as terminator transports, in my experience. The terminators-in-a-raider thing works for SMs because of their uber-characters, larger transport capacity, and/or 3++ saves. But chaos terminators aren't the HtH beasts they used to be--not with all the GKs running around with I6 power weapons. Right now the most points-efficient use of chaos terminators in the current codex is the 100-odd point termicide squad.

Flavius Infernus wrote:On the CSM land raiders specifically, think about the Kharn Bomb (which I've seen used effectively here and there). Just put Kharn by himself into his own land raider either in a balanced one-raider list, or as a cheaper alternative to a third berzerker/possessed unit.

If you're only adding a single landraider to an otherwise balanced chaos list, then it's like a budget deathstar for 400 points and change. Kharn can rip through most non-vehicle units by himself, and has abilities that are complimentary to--but cheaper than, and against some opponents better than--the capabilities of a berzerker squad. So the opponent can't ignore the Kharn bomb, which is really the point of a deathstar.

Also Kharn comes with a free icon, so you can use the land raider's huge footprint to extent your termicide/daemon drop zone when he's embarked.

And he fulfills your obligatory HQ slot.

Chaos LRs don't work very well anymore as terminator transports, in my experience. The terminators-in-a-raider thing works for SMs because of their uber-characters, larger transport capacity, and/or 3++ saves. But chaos terminators aren't the HtH beasts they used to be--not with all the GKs running around with I6 power weapons. Right now the most points-efficient use of chaos terminators in the current codex is the 100-odd point termicide squad.

While I certainly agree that Terminators aren´t that great at CC, I can´t help but shake my head at the suggestion of running Kharn as a "Death Star". Kharn? As a Death Star? Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t the entire idea of a death star that it´s pretty much invulnerable (except to plucky heroes in spaceships, oc) and kills everything that´s thrown at it? Draigo + Paladins is a Death Star, some SM Terminators + Characters could be considered a Death Star. But Kharn? On his own? He who gets insta-gibbed by any punk with a Powerfist/claw or Missile Launcher? Yeah, i think not...

Now, Kharn + 4 Terminators as bodyguards could possibly work (although I´d still prefer to just stick him with some Berzerkers I guess), but solo?

I run a redeemer and have had mixed results. It always gets destroyed before turn 4 in every game. But it's also inflicted some heavy casualties. The flamethroewers, as much as I hate to say it, have been less than stellar. I had visions of rolling that bad boy into the heart of my foes ranks and incinerating them by the scores, but alas, it just ain't gonna happen!

I was thinking of buying some of the forge world variant land raiders, but I noticed some of them lack the assault ramp. It that essentially gimping them? Your termies would have to deploy from the side doors...

grifter wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:On the CSM land raiders specifically, think about the Kharn Bomb (which I've seen used effectively here and there). Just put Kharn by himself into his own land raider either in a balanced one-raider list, or as a cheaper alternative to a third berzerker/possessed unit.

If you're only adding a single landraider to an otherwise balanced chaos list, then it's like a budget deathstar for 400 points and change. Kharn can rip through most non-vehicle units by himself, and has abilities that are complimentary to--but cheaper than, and against some opponents better than--the capabilities of a berzerker squad. So the opponent can't ignore the Kharn bomb, which is really the point of a deathstar.

Also Kharn comes with a free icon, so you can use the land raider's huge footprint to extent your termicide/daemon drop zone when he's embarked.

And he fulfills your obligatory HQ slot.

Chaos LRs don't work very well anymore as terminator transports, in my experience. The terminators-in-a-raider thing works for SMs because of their uber-characters, larger transport capacity, and/or 3++ saves. But chaos terminators aren't the HtH beasts they used to be--not with all the GKs running around with I6 power weapons. Right now the most points-efficient use of chaos terminators in the current codex is the 100-odd point termicide squad.

While I certainly agree that Terminators aren´t that great at CC, I can´t help but shake my head at the suggestion of running Kharn as a "Death Star". Kharn? As a Death Star? Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t the entire idea of a death star that it´s pretty much invulnerable (except to plucky heroes in spaceships, oc) and kills everything that´s thrown at it? Draigo + Paladins is a Death Star, some SM Terminators + Characters could be considered a Death Star. But Kharn? On his own? He who gets insta-gibbed by any punk with a Powerfist/claw or Missile Launcher? Yeah, i think not...

Now, Kharn + 4 Terminators as bodyguards could possibly work (although I´d still prefer to just stick him with some Berzerkers I guess), but solo?

I'm only speaking from my own experience of fighting against the Kharn bomb a couple of times.

Obviously you keep him away from str8 stuff (Although he does have a 5++ for emergencies).

But seven str6 power weapon attacks at I6 hitting on a flat 2+ when he charges out of a land raider means he can handle pretty much anything that isn't str8. Which is why you don't want him in a unit with any other models, especially expensive ones.

It's a kind of budget deathstar. A near-deathstar.

The probability that 13 Dark Lances will wreck various numbers of Land Raiders without cover are:

0 Land Raiders: 21.6%
1 Land Raider: 35.2%
2 Land Raiders: 26.4%
3 Land Raiders: 12.1%
4 Land Radiers: 3.8%

If they all have cover, the distribution changes to

0 Land Raiders: 47.6%
1 Land Raider: 36.4%
2 Land Raiders: 12.8%
3 Land Raiders: 2.8%

NeutronPoison wrote:The probability that 13 Dark Lances will wreck various numbers of Land Raiders without cover are:

0 Land Raiders: 21.6%
1 Land Raider: 35.2%
2 Land Raiders: 26.4%
3 Land Raiders: 12.1%
4 Land Radiers: 3.8%

If they all have cover, the distribution changes to

0 Land Raiders: 47.6%
1 Land Raider: 36.4%
2 Land Raiders: 12.8%
3 Land Raiders: 2.8%

Mathematics failure complete.


End of line.

grifter wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:think about the Kharn Bomb

I can´t help but shake my head at the suggestion of running Kharn as a "Death Star". Kharn? As a Death Star?

He said budget dethstar.

I do think it's kind of funny the idea of this massive spikey land raider charging forward through everything and then it stops and a single guy pops out. "hey, guys!"

Although I think kharn in a raider full of berzerkers would be another matter. Yeah, you lose a berzerker or two, but that's a lot of both regular AND beatstick attacks.

Against non blessed hull LR's with no cover save, a single normal darklight weapon has a 3.7%/3.7%/5.5% chance to explode/destroy/immob. So 13 dark lances should be 48%/48%/72% (half this for cover). Essentially, you could expect to kill 1 Land Raider and probably immob another. However, an 1850 DE list can easily have 20+ darklight weapons, raiders will die and termies (death star) may struggle with the subsequent venom fire.

Not a great matchup.

Another use for them is an anti-meta approach if you encounter massive spam str 8/7 weapons (non lance). GK's and Necrons? Death Ray can hurt the raiders and CC Lords on Barges but Tesla is nerfed a little as are the HoD's. Psy dreads are hampered to glances, psy cannons can still do the job but its less likely, however volume of fire will drop the raiders if allowed. Long Fang's similar.

"Anti-Meta" list;
4-5 Land Raiders of your personal flavour but would advise multi-meltas.
Stuff to go inside the raiders. FNP BA could be interesting. TH/SS, MSU Troops.
Nothing else.

Movement phase is quick and easy too.

Project2501 wrote:Mathematics failure complete.


End of line.

Err, wat?

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=binomial+distribution+with+n%3D13%2C+p%3D2%2F3*1%2F3*1%2F2

Oh, right, it should have said "immobilize or wreck".

NeutronPoison wrote:

Project2501 wrote:Mathematics failure complete.


End of line.

Err, wat?

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=binomial+distribution+with+n%3D13%2C+p%3D2%2F3*1%2F3*1%2F2

Oh, right, it should have said "immobilize or wreck".

You also seemed to have missed the bit where the probability of 13 dark lances' chances to stun, immobilize, wreck, destroy or in any possible way affect 0 zero land raiders is exactly 0%.

And there being a 1.2% greater chance to affect a land raider in cover than not in cover.

Project2501 wrote:
You also seemed to have missed the bit where the probability of 13 dark lances' chances to stun, immobilize, wreck, destroy or in any possible way affect 0 zero land raiders is exactly 0%.

Err ... the idea is that the Dark Lances have N Land Raiders to shoot at, where N is more than they can realistically destroy in a turn, so that they always have more Land Raiders to shoot at. If all N Land Raiders are in cover, then there's a 47.6% chance that there are no immobilized, wrecked or explodes results. In other words, no matter now many Land Raiders there are on the table, there's a 47.6% chance that 13 Dark Lances won't do anything to any of them if they're in cover.

And there being a 1.2% greater chance to affect a land raider in cover than not in cover.

Again, there are N Land Raiders on the table, and the chance that you'll immobilize, wreck, or destroy exactly one of them is greater when they're all in cover than when they're all out of cover, because there's much more chance that you'll damage two, three, or four of them. If you wanted the probability of at least one immobilized, wrecked, or destroyed result, you'd subtract the probability of zero of those results from one, which is bigger for the Land Raider out of cover.

The point of the exercise is to determine how likely you are to be stranded in your own deployment zone if you lose first turn to Dark Eldar. If you've got k Land Raiders, add up the probabilities for all the numbers of results greater than or equal to k and voila! Now you know.

The point is, it's still wrong.

Now you know.

I have used raiders a few times and if they play their part right they are devestating.

For their roles, see Horsts post on page 1.

I have won games because I bought a raider and I have lost games because a raider was at the centre of my opponents force (see my batrep game 5 lords terra 2011 vs BA).

Yes they are expensive, and they are not indestructible, but used well my own experience is they can form a very effective foundation for a loyalist marine list.

Csm less so, for me they go possessed and either go flat out forward or stay still and shoot all weapons, which are still TL so the BS3 is ok.

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's a kind of budget deathstar.

I love this statement!

Flavius Infernus wrote:

I'm only speaking from my own experience of fighting against the Kharn bomb a couple of times.

Obviously you keep him away from str8 stuff (Although he does have a 5++ for emergencies).

But seven str6 power weapon attacks at I6 hitting on a flat 2+ when he charges out of a land raider means he can handle pretty much anything that isn't str8. Which is why you don't want him in a unit with any other models, especially expensive ones.

It's a kind of budget deathstar. A near-deathstar.

A Death Star, like I said, is usually implied to have both offensive as well as defensive capabilities, at least that's how I've always seen it used. I also don't see the "budget" part when you plop Kharn in a 250+ point transport, but to each their own.

Well we can argue the semantics of "death star" all day, but I'd rather not. So let's just forget "death star" call it the "Kharn bomb."

The budget part is the fact that Kharn by himself is as dangerous in assault as a whole unit of terminators or khorne berskerers--more so against MCs or opponents with good armor, less so against opponents with str8+--but he costs less than a fully decked-out assault unit.

(You can get a 5-terminator unit for a bit less, but they will be stuck with their basic str4 power weapons and still need 4s to hit WS4 opponents.)

Yup.

The other thing to consider is Kharne in a LR with a unit of Berserkers or terminators, but regularly jumping out only one without the other. This ups the cost again, but gives you greater flexibility in that after jumping out one of them to smash something, you still have a second nasty assault unit embarked, so the following turn you still threaten a wide assault radius.

Mannahnin wrote:Yup.

The other thing to consider is Kharne in a LR with a unit of Berserkers or terminators, but regularly jumping out only one without the other. This ups the cost again, but gives you greater flexibility in that after jumping out one of them to smash something, you still have a second nasty assault unit embarked, so the following turn you still threaten a wide assault radius.

Now that´s more to my liking...hide him in the unit if there´s any nasty suprises out there or your LR gets shot up and you´re stranded, otherwise, have them go for multiple targets. Also, his somewhat lackluster strength of 5 (6 on the charge) leaves something to be desired, so I´d always run the squad he´s in with a PF. Kharne´s basically a cheaper, less reliable version of Abaddon, though he is at least priced somewhat competitively.

He is pretty darn cheap for what he does. He's actually somewhat more reliable than Abbaddon, as he hits on a 2+. He's just a good bit less durable. He also brings psychic power immunity to the party.

okay, so, this has inspired some 40k photoshop:



And yeah, I like kharn. He's everything a good character should be - really strange rules, and worth his points.

Might i suggest adding,

"But the holes no bigger than a Wamprat...".