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Jolrael wrote:
You do understand that that was clearly a joke? No need to trivialize my statements beacuse of that. You dont just seek conflict, do you? (besides starting something while saying - I am really NOT doing that reminds me of something -" Hi hon, you know, I am really NOT trying to get into your panties you know? I really admire you because I think youre really different from all other girls. Lets come out for a walk where you can tell me more about yourself so I can hear you better." - if you get my meaning)

That screams 2 things. 1) you don't get laid very often and 2) You don't understand how your little passive aggressive crap is seeking conflict, the thing you are criticizing. If someone didn't get your joke, it might not be that persons problem

isn't not getting laid very often a prerequisite for being on here...? Hang on. Dammit! i got married - that's my excuse!

Jamumools wrote:isn't not getting laid very often a prerequisite for being on here...? Hang on. Dammit! i got married - that's my excuse!

I don't think many of us get laid too often unless we are married... and even then there's alot that can be said

Comments like the above though just smack of nice guy syndrome

I missed where the OP is a CSM player. CSM LRs are significantly worse that Vanilla Smurf LRs, so I would not recommend taking one.

I actually sort of disagree, about the vast difference between CSM and SM Land Raiders.

CSM Land Raiders lose their shoot-while-moving potential. . . but if you're using them as an assault transport, that was only ever a minor benny anyway. The real difference isn't between the Land Raiders, it's between the contents.

You can't stick SM Assault Termies in a Chaos Land Raider. You can put in some other assault units, including one or two that will actually put out more damage for the points, but there's nothing quite as dead hard as TH/SS Termies in the CSM Codex. You have to go with more traditional assault deathstars, rather than the premier anti-deathstar deathstar that TH/SS Termies are, and since CSM, like vanilla SM, are largely a shooting army, that hurts you.

Gornall wrote:I missed where the OP is a CSM player. .

Yeah, but I'm not only looking for this on with regards to CSM. I'm also curious about the light-side one as well.

So, something else actually struck me about this too. Unless you're deepstriking (or outflanking, and I'm being silly with my movement), meltaguns aren't actually that big of a deal. The prime reasoning being that a meltagun is only going to work against a raider if the meltaguns started out less than 12" away from the raider, which seems somewhat unlikely, given that anything within 18" is getting charged by something. Given that deepstrikers aren't arriving until turn 2, this means that the melta is only working after they've delivered their cargo.

The only real bother with melta, then would be from if you had an opponent's unit with melta that you charged with the contents of the raider, and then there was another opponent's unit that also had melta, that wasn't close enough to the first unit to get multi-assaulted, but was close enough to still target the raider. Given that force concentration is basically what raiders are about, this seems somewhat unlikely.

Really, the problem is with DE lance spam (which I'm under the impression is somewhat less prevalent now that DE have credible other options), railgun spam, and vendettas, and the like.

Ailaros wrote:

Gornall wrote:I missed where the OP is a CSM player. .

Yeah, but I'm not only looking for this on with regards to CSM. I'm also curious about the light-side one as well.

So, something else actually struck me about this too. Unless you're deepstriking (or outflanking, and I'm being silly with my movement), meltaguns aren't actually that big of a deal. The prime reasoning being that a meltagun is only going to work against a raider if the meltaguns started out less than 12" away from the raider, which seems somewhat unlikely, given that anything within 18" is getting charged by something. Given that deepstrikers aren't arriving until turn 2, this means that the melta is only working after they've delivered their cargo.

The only real bother with melta, then would be from if you had an opponent's unit with melta that you charged with the contents of the raider, and then there was another opponent's unit that also had melta, that wasn't close enough to the first unit to get multi-assaulted, but was close enough to still target the raider. Given that force concentration is basically what raiders are about, this seems somewhat unlikely.

Really, the problem is with DE lance spam (which I'm under the impression is somewhat less prevalent now that DE have credible other options), railgun spam, and vendettas, and the like.

Exactly. You can generally use your larger threat radius to avoid regular meltaguns. MMs on faster platforms (MM Attack Bikes or Landspeeders) are more problematic, as they have a 23.99" threat radius. DE lance spam can be annoying, but they would just as easily make quick work of the walking Termies or your other vehicles if they didn't have the LR to shoot at. Vendettas and Manticores (oh how I hate Manticores) can be very annoying, but once again... it is better than shredding the rest of your army. All of these threats to LRs keep them from being a "must take" unit with no drawbacks. However, they can also be mitigated through careful list construction and gameplay. A LR doesn't automatically blow up just because your opponent brought 6 squads of GHs with Melta/Combi Meltas or 3 Ravagers... he has to use those tools correctly if he wants to kill the LR without leaving himself open to your counter attack. This is why I think it a viable (and I would say competitive) choice.

Really, the problem is with DE lance spam, railgun spam, and vendettas, and the like.

It surely is. For instance, at 2000 pts with my guard company I regulary field 7 lascannons (one BS4), with orders two HWS fires 6 twin-linked LC shots. I've also got a LRD with LC, a Bassy, and a LRBT/LC. 3 ML's as well - no melta except i've tried out the devil dog. When you do range you gotta do range, and a LR list makes having the ability to fire anti-AV14 from 6-8 units money in the bank. Anecdotal, but against my regular BA opponent, Ive destroyed his LR first turn (once with the first shot, with my CCS ), and had him deepstrike it instead of deploying it in my face. I've also had it deliver defeat to my lines after soaking it all up for 2 turns.

So I'm starting to see this as more and more of a go big or go home kind of a thing. A single land raider in a list isn't adding much, but a 1500 points list that is a gifts sorcerer, 3x squads of berzerkers, and 3x posessed land raiders is a much different story.

Like how field position is nice, but spamming field position is a good strategy, so it seems with force concentration, and force concentration seems to be the "else" I was looking for. Your opponent deploys first, and you deploy 3 land raiders over in a corner, putting 100% of your force in one tiny ball that you smash into just one part of your opponent's lines, gaining ultimate local superiority while your opponent's other units are just sort of left out to dry. Alternately, if you go first, and your opponent tries to copy your force concentration thing, they're going to lose, because they can't concentrate their force as much as you can, especially if they're a horde commander.

The tighter you can wind this ball into a super iron fist, and the more you can hammer it on a smaller space, the exponentially better it gets. Sort of like how a blitzkreig worked. Wherever you go, you have local superiority, and whenever your opponent reacts by starting to condense their forces, you STILL have local superiority. Hordes will get tangled in themselves, and parking lots will turn into literal parking lots, but your units will always be within 12" of every other unit in your force. Talk about support.

Oddly enough, it actually makes it better that raiders are relatively slow, because you wouldn't WANT them to be able to just shoot ahead of food units (say, that got blown out of their raiders) in this paradigm.

Other than this, I suppose the specific tactics would be, against armies where a lascannon alpha strike would be useful, to spend the first turn or two doing a 6" rolling advance with POTMS, or do a sit-and-shoot with CSM (and then laugh as you still get to unload with all your weapons, depsite being "shaken"), and then spend the rest of the game in a spear thrust. Against armies where a lascannon alpha strike wouldn't be that useful, you just roll forward, pop smoke, and do the business.

Jihallah wrote:

Jolrael wrote:
You do understand that that was clearly a joke? No need to trivialize my statements beacuse of that. You dont just seek conflict, do you? (besides starting something while saying - I am really NOT doing that reminds me of something -" Hi hon, you know, I am really NOT trying to get into your panties you know? I really admire you because I think youre really different from all other girls. Lets come out for a walk where you can tell me more about yourself so I can hear you better." - if you get my meaning)

That screams 2 things. 1) you don't get laid very often and 2) You don't understand how your little passive aggressive crap is seeking conflict, the thing you are criticizing. If someone didn't get your joke, it might not be that persons problem

And still you skirmished me on your own initiative without me ever adressing you. Urge to meddle into the affairs of the other could be also narrowed and explained in same-witted very precise conclusion of someones other life like you did. We could always play this psycho crap of wooo I can read your miiiiind I totaly know how you live except we wont, at least I wont. Anyways thank you for your comment. You are obviously very skilled, too intelligent for me and way out of my league and therefore I will certainly discuss this matter this night only to get better for my own sake.

On a side note - wooo go landraiders!

BeRzErKeR wrote:I actually sort of disagree, about the vast difference between CSM and SM Land Raiders.

CSM Land Raiders lose their shoot-while-moving potential. . . but if you're using them as an assault transport, that was only ever a minor benny anyway. The real difference isn't between the Land Raiders, it's between the contents.

You can't stick SM Assault Termies in a Chaos Land Raider. You can put in some other assault units, including one or two that will actually put out more damage for the points, but there's nothing quite as dead hard as TH/SS Termies in the CSM Codex. You have to go with more traditional assault deathstars, rather than the premier anti-deathstar deathstar that TH/SS Termies are, and since CSM, like vanilla SM, are largely a shooting army, that hurts you.

You can't get a crusader or redeemer as CSM. The move and shoot potential truly shines on the crusader- shooting the assault cannons, 2 hurricane bolters and a PotMS multimelta can lay down a serious blast of anti-infantry firepower and a AT snipe at another target, or even the same target if its MEQ/TEQ's, all to help the contents inside- blowing transports/potential dread tarpits (for things like LC terms), softening up an assault target etc. It's a solid choice. I will admit there is also a difference in the contents- no TH/SS termies can be frustrating at time, but LC IoS or IoK term's can sometimes make up for it. Hell, even a WG or vanguard vet squad is ridiculously fun to play with because of the options for CC wargear, can make for some humorous games when you have such a good delivery platform for them

Ailaros wrote:
So, something else actually struck me about this too. Unless you're deepstriking (or outflanking, and I'm being silly with my movement), meltaguns aren't actually that big of a deal. The prime reasoning being that a meltagun is only going to work against a raider if the meltaguns started out less than 12" away from the raider, which seems somewhat unlikely, given that anything within 18" is getting charged by something. Given that deepstrikers aren't arriving until turn 2, this means that the melta is only working after they've delivered their cargo.

scouting melta's can be a hard counter to heavy land raider armies- this is my main grief with them. The thing is, an army heavy on scouting melta is less likely to be a TAC list.
And a melta can work against a landraider from ~20" away, if they are mounted in a transport

Jolrael wrote: blah blah blah

What's so bad about 250pts for two TLLC?

Two TLLC dreads takes 270pts, takes up two slots, doesn't take missiles like AV14. They can both move 6" and fire to full effect.

Two annihilator preds are (probably?) more lascannons for points at 330pts, but they can only fire one TLLC when moving 6" and they can't afford to move up and be a part of the game due to weak side armor. Also the sponson cannons can't be fully counted on.

TLLC razorbacks are 75pts, so half the points per cannon, but they cost you mobility since you have no rhinos and they can't take missiles for gak.

Is it *THAT* crazy to buy a godhammer for the firepower? Unlike dreads it's not so easy to silence, unlike razors it gives your marines more movement options rather than less, and it's more mobile than a laser pred. If you have termies it doesn't even cost a slot.

Almarine wrote:What's so bad about 250pts for two TLLC?

You can spend those points in a CSM army for say Obliterators if you wanted firepower

Jihallah wrote:You can't get a crusader or redeemer as CSM.

And if I could, I'm not certain that I would take them.

Yes, you have the ability to use them more like a transport, but it seems to me that this ability stems from the fact that their firepower is so crappy, that they're not encumbered by good weapons, making the choice to move a real sacrifice. With the crusader, really, bolters? You don't have those elsewhere in your army? With the redeemer, you're looking at only ever shooting one of the cannons ever, and that's if your opponent is being nice enough to realise that you're bringing the mother of all template weapons and do absolutely nothing in the movement phase to counter it.

I like the crusader's +2 cargo, but that's pretty much the only thing I like. Is it worth losing your ability to handle vehicles or monstrous creatures of any type, just so you can handle things your troops choices can already handle? That seems dubious.

Almarine wrote:Is it *THAT* crazy to buy a godhammer for the firepower?

It still seems to me yes. When you're talking about long range fire support, more or less the only metric you're looking at is how much it kills over the course of the game (especially in the first couple of turns). More or less everything else is a function of this.

Godhammers cost a LOT. Are they going to win back those points over the course of a game? That seems a struggle in good times, and against horde and MSU armies, this thing is going to be a giant points sink.

Perhaps if I could see it played a bit, and find something I was missing... perhaps. Until then, it just seems to be a really expensive way to kill stuff.

Well obviously you want to achieve an advantage in firepower and position by killing stuff first, so yes the first turns are more important but equally obviously, godhammer has a relatively good chance to survive to get more shots off as the game progresses.

Godhammer can also theoretically take out two vehicles per shooting phase. The beauty of TL lascannons is that they hit almost automatically and if you go for weak targets don't need much to pen. Catch something out of cover and it's often a done deal. Someone mathhammer the probability of stopping two rhinos in one turn?

Almarine wrote:Well obviously you want to achieve an advantage in firepower and position by killing stuff first, so yes the first turns are more important but equally obviously, godhammer has a relatively good chance to survive to get more shots off as the game progresses.

Godhammer can also theoretically take out two vehicles per shooting phase. The beauty of TL lascannons is that they hit almost automatically and if you go for weak targets don't need much to pen. Catch something out of cover and it's often a done deal. Someone mathhammer the probability of stopping two rhinos in one turn?

Pretty low.

8/9 shots will hit. 2/3 of hits will pen, an additional 1/6 will glance. Assuming that by 'stop' you mean permanently, then 1/6 of glances and 1/2 of pens will accomplish that.

A single TL lascannon will stop a Rhino 32% of the time. A single Godhammer Land Raider will stop two Rhinos on a single turn 10% of the time. A single Godhammer will stop a single Rhino 54% of the time. So in a given game, if you use your Land Raider Godhammer as a firing platform and move 6" every turn, you can reasonably expect to destroy or immobilize 3 AV 11 or less vehicles. About once every other game, you might be able to take out two in a single turn. . . but since you have to declare all your firing from the Land Raider simultaneously, it's a bit risky to go for it.

@Ailaros; Well, if you're playing Rolling Thunder, then a Crusader can be a decent idea. Move 6", fire off 6 TL bolters, plus an assault cannon, plus a multi-melta, plus a storm bolter if you took one. That's some pretty hefty anti-infantry firepower. That also lets your infantry keep up, which is a minor plus. But I still maintain that the proper way to view a Land Raider is as an extension to the threat radius of your heavy assault units, with the side-benefit of occasionally being able to shoot things. From that perspective, the Chaos Land Raider isn't really that much worse than the Loyalist ones.

It's essentially a Fortress of Death. It is one of the most secure units in the game, that is, until you introduce it to Eldar...

The landraider is a hit/miss proposition. Essentially you put one on the table and you are betting your opponent won't kill it in the early rounds of a game. You are hoping to soak up all his true anti-tank fire and still be standing. Otherwise if you are looking truly for firepower- look elsewhere.

Almarine wrote:

Is it *THAT* crazy to buy a godhammer for the firepower?

Yes. I can see your point, but some of the right scalpel units introduced to your local meta will make it crazy to buy it just for its firepower.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:You can't get a crusader or redeemer as CSM.

And if I could, I'm not certain that I would take them.

Yes, you have the ability to use them more like a transport, but it seems to me that this ability stems from the fact that their firepower is so crappy, that they're not encumbered by good weapons, making the choice to move a real sacrifice. With the crusader, really, bolters? You don't have those elsewhere in your army? With the redeemer, you're looking at only ever shooting one of the cannons ever, and that's if your opponent is being nice enough to realise that you're bringing the mother of all template weapons and do absolutely nothing in the movement phase to counter it.

I like the crusader's +2 cargo, but that's pretty much the only thing I like. Is it worth losing your ability to handle vehicles or monstrous creatures of any type, just so you can handle things your troops choices can already handle? That seems dubious.

TH/SS terminators can do wrecking duty all day and make love to MC's all night. What they can't do is fend off all the boyz. Remember, those bolter's are hurricanes- It's three bolter's strapped together. That wasn't enough, so they strapped another 3 to it 12 TL shots and 4 TL S6 AP4 rending shots can soften up your targets real nice. And I would love to see someone do the math hammer on a crusader vs a godhammer against MC style statlines. And last but not least- It has a multimelta. One extra shot vs MC's, eh. On extra shot you can shoot at a different target, on a 360 degree cupola, that's more likely to be in melta range, vs vehicles- I think It can do alright, especially with the rest of the firebase- The other thing I find in SM vs CSM armies is it's easier to put down firepower. I find most of my SM lists have enough long range firepower in the form of AC/Las preds, typhoons, riflemen and if I'm playing wolves a pack of long fangs, and of course melta's for those that slip through. When the crusader hits their lines it's probably got a rhino or razorback/or two hanging around with it, who probably have meltaguns. If the crusader and it's contents are their to butcher infantry, they need some AT support of course

BeRzErKeR wrote:A single Godhammer Land Raider will stop two Rhinos on a single turn 10% of the time. A single Godhammer will stop a single Rhino 54% of the time.

Right. Furthermore, how many rhinos does a godhammer need to kill in order to make a worthwhile rhino hunter. I mean, that's a lot of points to spend on something that only turns marines moving 12" into marines moving 7-12"...

The same is true for other flimsy transport armies (like DE and ork), and is true for any army that goes light on the vehicles, if it brings any at all.

The point of specialization is supposed to be increase efficiency (and thus more power over all), but the godhammer is so expensive that it's not really that efficient. Not to say it's the worst unit out there (that would be spawn), or perhaps not even the worst land raider (I really hate redeemers), but I still wouldn't line up to field one, unless the rest of my list was desperately lacking anti-tank. Given that long/medium range anti-tank is basically the light-side marine's calling card, well...

... it's sort of like guard commanders taking punishers: a too-expensive unit that already does what the rest of your army is doing better.

More importantly, the benefit of raiders in general appears to be force concentration, which the static land raider wholly forsakes. Once you start moving, though, how many lascannons are you really shooting? It seems like the godhammer is taking a unit that struggles to know what its role is, and gives it upgrades that just confuse it more.

DOUBLE POST M-M-M-MADNESS

Ailaros wrote:"perhaps not even the worst land raider (I really hate redeemers)"

Hi 5!

Ailaros wrote:
More importantly, the benefit of raiders in general appears to be force concentration, which the static land raider wholly forsakes. Once you start moving, though, how many lascannons are you really shooting? It seems like the godhammer is taking a unit that struggles to know what its role is, and gives it upgrades that just confuse it more.

Crusader's, however, has guns that love to shoot the same target- and a multimelta sniper

DAaddict wrote:The landraider is a hit/miss proposition. Essentially you put one on the table and you are betting your opponent won't kill it in the early rounds of a game. You are hoping to soak up all his true anti-tank fire and still be standing. Otherwise if you are looking truly for firepower- look elsewhere.

Yes, buy 2 Predators with all the upgrades you want if you have the desire to kill your enemy.

Blood Angels will receive the Baal Predator instead. A tank that is pretty good at mopping the floor with anything.

I have a shooty CSM army. All the heavy slots are taken, and I have 4 normal CSM squads with one lascannon each. The only other way to take more lascannons is to have a termi squad so that I can take a landraider as a dedicated transport and hence add 2 more twin linked lascannons to my long range armament.

Erm, yeah we could take dreadnaughts instead, but seriously, do you want to field a chaos lascannon dread, and have it swing around and shoot you twice with its lascannons? Hee

That's the thing about vanilla Marines; they're not efficient. I mean, they aren't efficient at ANYTHING.

They're flexible, that's their big draw. Your basic el-cheapo tactical squad can fight hordes, shoot at transports, duel with heavy infantry, it can do anything; it just can't do it WELL. You always have the tool you need for the job, but your tools are always about a quarter of an inch too big. In a vanilla Marine list, the Land Raider is no less efficient than, well, practically everything else, and it serves to deliver one of the MOST efficient units in the Codex.

For CSM, the situation's a bit different, because they do have a few genuinely efficient units. MSU Plague Marines are better at being Marines than Marines are, and excellent for dismounting other troops with close-range melta or mulching heavy infantry with plasma, or for that matter scorching hordes with flamers and then tarpitting them forever. Berzerkers are great assault infantry. Chosen and/or Havocs can be kitted out to do any one job pretty damn well, though they do get expensive fast. Obliterators and Termicide are quite decent deep-strike units. For CSM, the Land Raider is a bit less attractive for that reason.

Still; if it absolutely, positively must be destroyed overnight, you can pop Abbadon and a few dual-LC MoK Termie Champions in a Land Raider and drop them on top of whatever needs to die. It's got a hefty price tag for just 5 Termie models, but 30 Lightning Claw attacks, plus Abby and his Happy Fun Sword, will take out damn near anything in pretty short order.

Eldenfirefly wrote:have a termi squad so that I can take a landraider as a dedicated transport

lol. Land raiders for the land raider god!

1850 pts:

sorcerer with gifts
4x termies with lightning claws, land raider, posession
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
land raider, posession
land raider, posession
land raider, posession

... or so.

If one land raider is a target, two land raiders a tactic, and three land raiders a strategy, what does 4 make?

Ailaros wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:have a termi squad so that I can take a landraider as a dedicated transport

lol. Land raiders for the land raider god!

1850 pts:

sorcerer with gifts
4x termies with lightning claws, land raider, posession
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
land raider, posession
land raider, posession
land raider, posession

... or so.

If one land raider is a target, two land raiders a tactic, and three land raiders a strategy, what does 4 make?

Cheese.

A Rock. I hope your opponents don't have access to paper...If they don't have access, then you have hilarity

BeRzErKeR wrote:
A single TL lascannon will stop a Rhino 32% of the time. A single Godhammer Land Raider will stop two Rhinos on a single turn 10% of the time. A single Godhammer will stop a single Rhino 54% of the time. So in a given game, if you use your Land Raider Godhammer as a firing platform and move 6" every turn, you can reasonably expect to destroy or immobilize 3 AV 11 or less vehicles. About once every other game, you might be able to take out two in a single turn. . . but since you have to declare all your firing from the Land Raider simultaneously, it's a bit risky to go for it.

Maybe not the greatest odds but I wouldn't exactly call them underwhelming. And it's only risky when one is more important to stop.

Jihallah wrote:

Almarine wrote:Is it *THAT* crazy to buy a godhammer for the firepower?

Yes. I can see your point, but some of the right scalpel units introduced to your local meta will make it crazy to buy it just for its firepower.

Everything's a tradeoff, right?

Ailaros wrote: redeemers are the worst land raiders

Agreed...



Anyway I wanted to throw a hat for the land raider as a gunboat because I don't think it's incredibly overpriced for what it does in that department. Even if that was all it did there are certainly worse buys in the game/codex. It can do a whole lot more though, being a transport, being AV14, being huge etc. It's also a f***ing land raider that you get to field in your army, so that's 100pts right there.

But I guess it's not about whether or not it's worth the points. Personally I'm not sure it has an intended true purpose/role like a lot of new units, it's been in the game for a long time after all, since before they really got serious about that stuff. It's not like they'd drop land raiders from the dex just because units are expected to make sense now.

Things gained from a land raider.

#1: An AV14 assault ramp.

#2: Ability to move assault units to where they want to go.

#3: Safe spot for assault units to hide until they get into CC.

#4: Dakka.

Now the reality check.

#2 and #3 can be obtained for free by terminators if they deep strike, especially in a CSM army where every unit of troops has access to a cheap icon that acts as a teleport homer. Due to cheap and prolific icons CSM has less of a need for a land raider to transport termies than any other army.

For the cost of a land raider the Dakka sucks. The land raider is all about the AV14 assault ramp. Any debate over what weapon sponsoons are best totally lose sight of the primary purpose of a land raider=the assault ramp.

It's all about threat radius. Look at MEQ units threat range for a charge.

On foot=12"
In transports 14"+ base size
With assault ramps=20"+ base size

The post cost for a laid raider is the point cost for a 20" assault range on a death star like Draigo+7 paladins, 15 DC+ a chaplian/relcusiarch, 8 salamander TH/SS termies, or 7 BA termies + power armor priest + libby/chaplain/relusiarch for preferred enemy. With CSM 10 zerkers or possessed just doesn't cut it for a land raider worthy death star.

One last note. The double penetration dice threat range of mechanized meltas is 20" + base size. 12" move with access hatch facing the land raider+ 2 " disembark + base size + 6" range=20"+ base size. It exposes the weak side/rear armor of a Chimera and the squad to return fire/being assaulted by the contents of the land raider, but it's worth it. Expect trouble from melta units early in the game, and if a land raider is charging towards a mechanized opponent with meltas be sure to just haul ass 12" and pop smoke. A land raider's dakka is not worth the loss of a 4++ cover save when being blasted by multiple melta guns.

Because land raiders are kewl and i spent over $120 for mine, so you can bet your balls i'm gunna use 'um!

More to the point, my landraiders are stocked with obscene marine slaughtering cultists rather then termies. These cultists die like flies out on there own, and the alternative is stormravens, which are ugly and made of wet tissue paper.