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optimusprime14 wrote: If it's a dedicated transport it, with the unit, only counts as 1 KP.

Quite incorrect. 2 KP's.

I have to admit TL;DR, but I will tell you my reasons for taking LRs:

they scare the crap out of your opponent. Sure, a good opponent knows how he's going to take down the land raider, but the problem is, they are still going to try and take it out turn 1 or two - usually to little results.

Truly, a LR is a damage soaker. Sure, it takes on hit to blow it, and then you're screwed, but a ML wolves army is abseloutely screwed.

LR are awesome if your local meta isn't prepared for them.

Opponents have to play anti armor that kills AV14 and multiples of it. Does everyone do that? No.

Patience and the ability to use LR correctly, game to game, is key.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I have to admit TL;DR, but I will tell you my reasons for taking LRs:

they scare the crap out of your opponent. Sure, a good opponent knows how he's going to take down the land raider, but the problem is, they are still going to try and take it out turn 1 or two - usually to little results.

Truly, a LR is a damage soaker. Sure, it takes on hit to blow it, and then you're screwed, but a ML wolves army is abseloutely screwed.

Not as screwed as you might think, since Space Wolves can and do give meltaguns to their Troop squads.

Teln wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:I have to admit TL;DR, but I will tell you my reasons for taking LRs:

they scare the crap out of your opponent. Sure, a good opponent knows how he's going to take down the land raider, but the problem is, they are still going to try and take it out turn 1 or two - usually to little results.

Truly, a LR is a damage soaker. Sure, it takes on hit to blow it, and then you're screwed, but a ML wolves army is abseloutely screwed.

Not as screwed as you might think, since Space Wolves can and do give meltaguns to their Troop squads.

And my speeders.


And my pod meltaguns too

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:LR are awesome if your local meta isn't prepared for them.

Opponents have to play anti armor that kills AV14 and multiples of it. Does everyone do that? No.

Patience and the ability to use LR correctly, game to game, is key.

Just about every MEQ army (Vanilla, space wolves, CSM, and BA) have meltas in their troops choices. GK have triple melta henchmen. IG have melta vets and quad melta CCS. Pretty much every non Xenos army can and is loaded with melta. A LR will catch some lists off guard, but most of the time an opponent has the tools to deal with one.

Yes, but meltaguns aren't that big of a deal. The only way meltaguns are in melta range is if all of the following is true:

- the unit wasn't charged by whatever was in the raider.

- the unit is close to a unit that was charged by whatever was in the raider (and wasn't itself, charged in a multiassault).

- the unit isn't being otherwise engaged by something else in your army (the land raider is being properly supported).

- the unit ouflanked, and you weren't silly enough to leave it in melta range of outflankers.

- the unit is in a fast transport that is still alive (hasn't been blown up by the land raider's lascannons).

Once you filter that out, practically the only meltaguns that are going to be in melta range are ones that are coming in by deepstrike, which you can castle against. If you're not able to castle (say, because of LR spamming), then melta deepstrike is still rather risky (and it's easy to scatter out of melta range altogether), and those things which can both deepstrike, take melta, and don't have to worry about scatter are probably pretty dang expensive (and generally revengeable by whatever was in the raider.

Multimelta is obviously more of a story, but we're still talking about something with a 12" shot against something with an assault ramp. This leaves multimeltas on fast vehicles that aren't destroyed by LR's lascannons, of which I can really only think of a single unit, and that unit only gets one shot with the multimelta the turn they arrive, so...

... really it's much more the lances and railguns, and lascannon spam from things like vendettas and, well, other land raiders, I guess...

The model, mostly makes Land Raider great.

Not the coolness factory, but it's a big box under your control, your own LOS block. I myself play double Land Raiders (Godhammer and Redeemer) with space wolves for the sake of Scoring and LOS block. Guns and assault ramp are nice too, but those are the most important things for me.

After the coming of Grey Knights and their psycannon/razor spam, I got overwhelmed by their dakka too hard. I needed something to hide my rhinos, Long Fangs and other fragile units. With Raiders, I can deny LOS from enemy units to their favorite target and force them to choose the raider,so my other units can get where they want, hopefully before Raider gets blown to bits. If opponent can't see anything but Raiders, all his weapons without at least str 8 are wasted for the first turn.

Also as scoring transport it is nice to get 2 objectives 12" apart with one tank between. This is where my Godhammer usually hangs, between objectives.

For sidesponsons, it depends what your army wants to do. Myself I use Godhammer for slow advance (moving 0-6"), Crusader for mid field (mostly moving 6") and Redeemer for full speed assault (12" and flaming with Machine Spirit), tank shocking, and flaming units exiting from their transport. When rhino explodes, it is nice to have Str 6 AP 3 template to clean up the marine passengers.

For closure, I think that if you are going to take Land Raiders in your list, you should built the rest of the list keeping them in mind. Myself I always make sure before making changes to my list that if needed, my whole army should fit behind two Raiders and small terrain piece.

Don't forget medusas guys, they really dominate land raiders.

Ailaros wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:have a termi squad so that I can take a landraider as a dedicated transport

lol. Land raiders for the land raider god!

1850 pts:

sorcerer with gifts
4x termies with lightning claws, land raider, posession
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
8 berzerkers, champ with fist
land raider, posession
land raider, posession
land raider, posession

... or so.

If one land raider is a target, two land raiders a tactic, and three land raiders a strategy, what does 4 make?

I just don´t see what those Landraiders do better that 3 more Berzerker Squads + appropriate can openers (Oblits or Havocs) don´t do better...

Besides, I think sticking Terminators with Abbaddon is a mistake, because Abb´s can take basically anything on by himself, while 4 LC-Termies will die on their own...

Answered on page one imo

Marshal_Gus wrote:
The assault vehicle rule also adds a threat range that has to be considered by the opponent. Having a 20.9" kill zone bubble for your assault unit is a good deterrent for soft units from getting too close or making sure that they can't run away for too long.

Added to the AV14 it has.
The melta argument is, as usual, taken in isolation, one should be actively taking out the specific threats to the LR with ones other units, allowing it for the most part free reign wth that 20" bubble.

And yes your opponent will in turn be taking out your threats which threaten his. And so tactics and luck have an influcene but thats another argument.

Is the OP trolling? He's been on these boards for a long time and he is bringing up LR spam, something that was popular for like 10 months after 5th ed came out and before people finally noticed the clue hammer hitting them about bringing enough melta. Hell some hard boyz lists had 7 landraiders.

And hes bringing up CSM LRs, which are pretty bad.
Zerkers aren't good enough or efficient enough at assault to justify the cost of possessed LRs. Lets play orks but bring 1/3 the models... Yeah, brilliant. Zerkers are scary for some people, but not enough to give them the whole battlewagon treatment.

My opinion: LRs are a pretty bad unit that will kick you in the teeth if you don't have an answer for it. Most of the time a single LR list is manageable for most people, LR spam is a hard counter to many people, but is hard countered by others. Keeps the "meta" (if there really is one) honest. A pair of LRs supported by the right army (like the very typical vulcan dual raider list) is a nasty tourney quality army, but pretty predictable and most people playing at that level should be able to handle it.

So LRs are mostly bad in serious gaming, can trounce scrubs, are prone to rock paper scissors gaming, but can still find a place in the right list.

I run 1 in my C:SM list for casual games just to keep my opponents honest. I used to run 3 in my old DH army because they were the best unit in the codex.... and I don't usually run any when I'm playing a serious army in a tourney.

I can't be as detailed as I would imagine you'd like but I've always assumed the Landraider as taking up an Infantry Fighting Vehicle role. Safely delivering its payload and them providing support. In my eyes its like a flashy chimera. The best uses in terms of delivery i've seen have been overpriced HQ's. Termies get D/S, you want you're long range stuff further away from combat and most units don't warrent the price of a land raider for what they do in terms of killing power. The last use was a Dark Angel varient with Azrael and a unit of veterans. Very expensive unit to have on boot. Even more so when i've demolishers running back and forth. The land raider got them close enough to my line for them to drop and charge. I got the land raider with lascannons after two huge volleys from lascannons, demo cannons, a manticore and a unit of melta vets in a chimera. The HQ proceeded to take out a battle tank, a PCS, two heavy weapon squads with autocannons and 3 cheap infantry squads with heavy bolters been used as bubble wrap. I don't think the unit and land raider made there points back but it put out some serious hurt and If I hadn't concentrate all that firepower on it, the land raider itself would have done a lot more damage.

The one thing I just noticed about this thread is the idea that assault termies derpstrike. Who actually thinks that an infantry movement unit with no special rules like fleet can actually do diddly when it
A: has to wait for a reserve roll
B: get a favorable scatter, use a teleport homer, or get lucky and not scatter
C: can't shoot after coming in, but can hobble d6 closser
D: wait a turn to assault
E: the things it is chasing move the same speed or faster.

TH/SS are the one unit in vanilla marines that can actually do enough in in CC to justify their points. The only way to deliver them without being laughed at is with a LR. The only LR variant that can be mobile and still shoot at a good rate is the LRC. The redeemer does do a better job of close support with its flame templates, but its usually a 1 shot wonder in the current game.

IMO lane raider is most effective carring assult termies TH/SS and for blood Angle, deep strike otherwise it is a great support platform and a excelent protection from long range fire spam eg lasgun

schadenfreude wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:LR are awesome if your local meta isn't prepared for them.

Opponents have to play anti armor that kills AV14 and multiples of it. Does everyone do that? No.

Patience and the ability to use LR correctly, game to game, is key.

Just about every MEQ army (Vanilla, space wolves, CSM, and BA) have meltas in their troops choices. GK have triple melta henchmen. IG have melta vets and quad melta CCS. Pretty much every non Xenos army can and is loaded with melta. A LR will catch some lists off guard, but most of the time an opponent has the tools to deal with one.

And tons of Xenos armies either have insanely high strength, lance or both. Also, the heat lance can make short work out of a Land Raider in 9" of it, so if you pull it off correctly, you can have a Land Raider explode and stop the occupants from assaulting you...

schadenfreude wrote:With CSM 10 zerkers or possessed just doesn't cut it for a land raider worthy death star.

This is a problem I have run into myself with BA and have sadly not yet quite figured out how to remedy. Zerkers lack the armor-ignoring punch to avoid being overwhelmed, especially when faced with heavier infantry (such as other muhreenz).

Ran wrote:

This is a problem I have run into myself with BA and have sadly not yet quite figured out how to remedy. Zerkers lack the armor-ignoring punch to avoid being overwhelmed, especially when faced with heavier infantry (such as other muhreenz).

5 Terminator Champions, dual Lightning Claws, Icon of Khorne. 6 attacks on the charge each, ignoring armor, with rerolls to wound. Yeah, the unit costs 280 points, but it's ludicrously deadly; drop Abbadon and this unit out of the Land Raider and you're putting out 30 S4 LC attacks + 5-11 S8 Daemon Weapon attacks from Abbadon. Anything that touches them is pretty much guaranteed to go away.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ran wrote:

This is a problem I have run into myself with BA and have sadly not yet quite figured out how to remedy. Zerkers lack the armor-ignoring punch to avoid being overwhelmed, especially when faced with heavier infantry (such as other muhreenz).

5 Terminator Champions, dual Lightning Claws, Icon of Khorne. 6 attacks on the charge each, ignoring armor, with rerolls to wound. Yeah, the unit costs 280 points, but it's ludicrously deadly; drop Abbadon and this unit out of the Land Raider and you're putting out 30 S4 LC attacks + 5-11 S8 Daemon Weapon attacks from Abbadon. Anything that touches them is pretty much guaranteed to go away.

I said it before and I´ll say it again: Abbadon makes anything he touches go away by himself anyway, so why give him a ridiculously overcosted escort that whiffs against any real opposition by themselves? Termie Champs with LC + MoK simply cannot handle anything with higher Init, range, AV or staying power, and are so expensive to boot that you can hardly use the rest of your units to support them because, frankly, their won´t be that much else in your army.
Besides, does investing almost 800 points (LR+Abbs+Termies) in a single threat really seem like such a good idea to people? Seriously?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Is the OP trolling? He's been on these boards for a long time and he is bringing up LR spam, something that was popular for like 10 months after 5th ed came out and before people finally noticed the clue hammer hitting them about bringing enough melta. Hell some hard boyz lists had 7 landraiders.

And hes bringing up CSM LRs, which are pretty bad.
Zerkers aren't good enough or efficient enough at assault to justify the cost of possessed LRs. Lets play orks but bring 1/3 the models... Yeah, brilliant. Zerkers are scary for some people, but not enough to give them the whole battlewagon treatment.

My opinion: LRs are a pretty bad unit that will kick you in the teeth if you don't have an answer for it. Most of the time a single LR list is manageable for most people, LR spam is a hard counter to many people, but is hard countered by others. Keeps the "meta" (if there really is one) honest. A pair of LRs supported by the right army (like the very typical vulcan dual raider list) is a nasty tourney quality army, but pretty predictable and most people playing at that level should be able to handle it.

So LRs are mostly bad in serious gaming, can trounce scrubs, are prone to rock paper scissors gaming, but can still find a place in the right list.

I disagree that the OP is trolling, but otherwise, this

I disagree with notabot. Three land raiders with three 8man Zerker squads with a Bloodfeeder Termie Lord in one of them. Is some scary stuff at 1500 points.

grifter wrote:

I said it before and I´ll say it again: Abbadon makes anything he touches go away by himself anyway, so why give him a ridiculously overcosted escort that whiffs against any real opposition by themselves? Termie Champs with LC + MoK simply cannot handle anything with higher Init, range, AV or staying power, and are so expensive to boot that you can hardly use the rest of your units to support them because, frankly, their won´t be that much else in your army.
Besides, does investing almost 800 points (LR+Abbs+Termies) in a single threat really seem like such a good idea to people? Seriously?

See, here's the thing; as an Ork player, I'm not sure why people say CSM Termies are overcosted.

I pay 20 points for a naked Nob. If I want any save on that Nob, I have to take a Painboy for 30 points, and then pay 5 more points per model to get cybork body. Now I have a 5++ and FNP, which is pretty nice, but against a dedicated assault unit it's just a 5++. CSM Termies have that. Or I can pay 5 points for 'eavy armor, which is basically worthless against any kind of assault unit whatsoever, and it's a 4+ vs. the 2+ that CSM Termies get.

CSM Termies have power weapons, basic. Nobz can't even GET power weapons; if I want I can get a Big Choppa for 5 points, which gives me higher strength but doesn't ignore armor. A Nob with a PK runs 45 points with no armor; give him cybork and he's 50. A CSM Termie Champion with a Power Fist has just as many attacks, at just as high a Strength, with higher initiative, and a 2+ armor save as well as a 5++. The only advantage Nobz have over CSM Termies is that they have two wounds, and I'll certainly agree that's a pretty big advantage. . . but aren't Nobz generally agreed to be one of the two or three most powerful assault units in the game? Just because CSM Termies aren't quite THAT good doesn't mean they're overcosted.

I can certainly agree that you CAN take too much stuff on CSM Termies; twin LC Champs with IoK is probably too much, so just remove the Champ status. Now that unit only costs 230, and still gets 25 LC attacks on the charge. If you like, you can swap out one or two LC sets for a PF and get 15 LC + 8 PF, or 20 LC + 4 PF. However you slice it, that's quite a dangerous assault unit; furthermore, if you want you can swap IoK for IoS and have the LC-users go first (though with fewer attacks) against MEQ, so they won't even take that much damage. It even makes the unit cheaper, or you could use those 15 points to bring along, say, a heavy flamer and a couple of combi-meltas.

So what makes them overcosted? Even against PW-armed MEQs, Slaaneshi Terminators ought to come out ahead. TH/SS Termies will still beat their faces in, of course, but beating down other TEQs is what TH/SS Termies are designed for, so that's no surprise. Is it just the Land Raider that makes them bad?

What about the idea of a standard raider carrying 5 to 6 termies while running side by side with another raider carrying marine vets? Expense? You bet, but when they hit mid field your other units will have hopefully been plinking away at the enemy and or be holding the objectives to win the game. The Vets and Termies are just there to make friends and get cozy while the other guys go for the W!

2 raiders 500 points
5 to 6 marines 200 to 240 points
Add the vets and you're over 1000.

At this point add 2 or 3 tact squads a rhino or two and maybe a pred. Not sure if that would work. I don't have my dex in front of me.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

grifter wrote:

I said it before and I´ll say it again: Abbadon makes anything he touches go away by himself anyway, so why give him a ridiculously overcosted escort that whiffs against any real opposition by themselves? Termie Champs with LC + MoK simply cannot handle anything with higher Init, range, AV or staying power, and are so expensive to boot that you can hardly use the rest of your units to support them because, frankly, their won´t be that much else in your army.
Besides, does investing almost 800 points (LR+Abbs+Termies) in a single threat really seem like such a good idea to people? Seriously?

See, here's the thing; as an Ork player, I'm not sure why people say CSM Termies are overcosted.

I pay 20 points for a naked Nob. If I want any save on that Nob, I have to take a Painboy for 30 points, and then pay 5 more points per model to get cybork body. Now I have a 5++ and FNP, which is pretty nice, but against a dedicated assault unit it's just a 5++. CSM Termies have that. Or I can pay 5 points for 'eavy armor, which is basically worthless against any kind of assault unit whatsoever, and it's a 4+ vs. the 2+ that CSM Termies get.

CSM Termies have power weapons, basic. Nobz can't even GET power weapons; if I want I can get a Big Choppa for 5 points, which gives me higher strength but doesn't ignore armor. A Nob with a PK runs 45 points with no armor; give him cybork and he's 50. A CSM Termie Champion with a Power Fist has just as many attacks, at just as high a Strength, with higher initiative, and a 2+ armor save as well as a 5++. The only advantage Nobz have over CSM Termies is that they have two wounds, and I'll certainly agree that's a pretty big advantage. . . but aren't Nobz generally agreed to be one of the two or three most powerful assault units in the game? Just because CSM Termies aren't quite THAT good doesn't mean they're overcosted.

I can certainly agree that you CAN take too much stuff on CSM Termies; twin LC Champs with IoK is probably too much, so just remove the Champ status. Now that unit only costs 230, and still gets 25 LC attacks on the charge. If you like, you can swap out one or two LC sets for a PF and get 15 LC + 8 PF, or 20 LC + 4 PF. However you slice it, that's quite a dangerous assault unit; furthermore, if you want you can swap IoK for IoS and have the LC-users go first (though with fewer attacks) against MEQ, so they won't even take that much damage. It even makes the unit cheaper, or you could use those 15 points to bring along, say, a heavy flamer and a couple of combi-meltas.

So what makes them overcosted? Even against PW-armed MEQs, Slaaneshi Terminators ought to come out ahead. TH/SS Termies will still beat their faces in, of course, but beating down other TEQs is what TH/SS Termies are designed for, so that's no surprise. Is it just the Land Raider that makes them bad?

First off, I didn´t mean Termies are overcosted, I said MoK LC Termie Champs are.

However, what makes CSM Termies only so-so is, in my opinion, is that they are so very, very squishy. Take away their 2+ (which really isn´t that hard to do in the current environment) and they save on 5++, with no ranged power to speak of, INI 4 and only 1 Wound each (and in suqads of only 4-5 if you take a LR). They don´t get the cool defensive toys of other armies, like Storm Shields, Warding Staffs or competitively priced Special Characters.
Another thing Nobz having going for them over CSM Termies is the fact that, as an Ork player, you can field vast amounts of cheap Boyz that can funnel stuff towards your hitty units. A CSM player simply does not have that luxury; the cheapest (reliable) trooper is a basic CSM at 15. Add in an Icon of Chaos Glory and they run you almost three times what a simple Ork Boy costs.

I don´t think Termies aren´t valuable, I just think running CSM CC-Termie strategy is a trap. And CSM LR´s kind of suck, for several reasons already stated in this thread by me or others.

Bolly.Bolly?BOLLY! wrote:I disagree with notabot. Three land raiders with three 8man Zerker squads with a Bloodfeeder Termie Lord in one of them. Is some scary stuff at 1500 points.

Way to auto lose to eldar. 3 units that matter with no real fire support. Fire dragon sacrifice to take out 2 LRs, laugh as your ersatz boyz run around chasing things they can never catch while the eldar player laughs at your ineffective unbalanced army. And light eldar are the bad ones.

Dark eldar will lance/haywire your 3 targets to death, then splinter weapon or wyche squad your infantry if they even matter. No long range weapons and slow movement means they often don't.

GKs will rend your 3 targets to death, then kill your guys with small arms fire and I6 your remaining units.

Armies with dreads will just throw their dumbots into combat with your guys. PFs are not good at taking out dreds, and you will at the very least be tied up in combat for a few rounds.

Your termie lord will actually handicap whatever squad he is with, since termie armor prevents sweeping advance. Running down the enemy when they aren't fearless is pretty nice thing to do I hear.

Now that I think about it, I can't actually think of any balanced list from any codex including the jokedex that is SoB would lose to this crap.

grifter wrote:chaos termies ... They don´t get the cool defensive toys of other armies

They can get 4++ with mark of tzeentch, that's sorta decent.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but meltaguns aren't that big of a deal. The only way meltaguns are in melta range is if all of the following is true:

- the unit wasn't charged by whatever was in the raider.

- the unit is close to a unit that was charged by whatever was in the raider (and wasn't itself, charged in a multiassault).

- the unit isn't being otherwise engaged by something else in your army (the land raider is being properly supported).

- the unit ouflanked, and you weren't silly enough to leave it in melta range of outflankers.

- the unit is in a fast transport that is still alive (hasn't been blown up by the land raider's lascannons).

Fast. Melta. Platform.
Speeders. Hell even Piranha's with their fusion guns.

notabot187 wrote:So LRs are mostly bad in serious gaming, can trounce scrubs, are prone to rock paper scissors gaming, but can still find a place in the right list.

TY! Another person who recognizes the RPS going on here

Bolly.Bolly?BOLLY! wrote:I disagree with notabot. Three land raiders with three 8man Zerker squads with a Bloodfeeder Termie Lord in one of them. Is some scary stuff at 1500 points.

There is no bloodfeeder termie lord in the discussed list, its a gift sorc. And whilst It might be scary to some armies, others will laugh it off. If you are going to bring a rock, I will bring paper to counter you. If the local meta is good for it then yes the list can be scary.

For a month or two...

Almarine wrote:

grifter wrote:chaos termies ... They don´t get the cool defensive toys of other armies

They can get 4++ with mark of tzeentch, that's sorta decent.

Emphasis on the sorta.

Also, that´s 7 points per model, unless you want to footslog across the board, where it´s as little as 3,5 points. Just goes to go how kaputt the icon-mechanic in Codex: CSM is.

The land raider is useful in most missions, surely?

Kill point mission -- it's a hard-to-get KP, as is what's inside. You can have it shooting for most of the game, getting easy KP by taking out light vehicles. If you see a good opportunity to get a KP by wiping out an infantry unit, or if an infantry unit is enough of a threat, you can drive up, unload your termies, kill the enemy, and probably get back in the LR again after.

Objective mission -- again you can use the two twin-linked lascannons for most of the game, as necessary. It's rare that you won't have a couple of good targets. Towards the end of the game you either use the contents of the raider to countercharge and defend your own objective(s), or to charge and wipe out the troops on and/or contest, the enemy objective(s).

I very, very rarely use LRs myself, but I've seen them used very effectively by skilled players who use them a lot. A lot of the time it's about picking the right moment to turn it from gun platform to assault vehicle.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but meltaguns aren't that big of a deal. The only way meltaguns are in melta range is if all of the following is true:

- the unit wasn't charged by whatever was in the raider.

- the unit is close to a unit that was charged by whatever was in the raider (and wasn't itself, charged in a multiassault).

- the unit isn't being otherwise engaged by something else in your army (the land raider is being properly supported).

- the unit ouflanked, and you weren't silly enough to leave it in melta range of outflankers.

- the unit is in a fast transport that is still alive (hasn't been blown up by the land raider's lascannons).

-the unit starts it's turn within 20" of the land raider. The threat range of a land raider charge is the exact same as a disembarking melta gun attack.

Threat range=12" move + 2" disembark + base size + 6" double pen melta range/charge range=20" + base size threat range for both the melta guns and assault range of the land raider's squads.

Ran my Redeemer with vindi side kick in a tournament last weekend. Was the MVP all three games. I never once lost it. I guess people were just too scared of charging terminators.

My vindicator did attrack fire every game. My 1850 list will be 2 vindi's paired with the redeemer.

Highlight of the tournament was frying 12 scarabs (6 bases hit) that had wrecked my vindicator. Scarabs are nasty but if you speed bump them and have a redeemer, they go down fast and easy.