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Have you ever tried footslogging Assault terminators? They don't affect the battle very much.

Simply put, they aren't worth their points. If they were maybe 170 or so points they would be worth it. At 250 points don't even consider it.

170 would make them broken as @#$%, given their firepower and durability.

They are about the right points right now.

I also use a single standard LR in my 2k VSM army, and it has always proved effective for me. It fills the triple role of weapon platform, Assault Terminator delivery system and battlefield anchor, and its advantages can't be neatly summed up by its characteristic profile.

- Yes, 250 points for two twin-linked lascannons and a twin-linked heavy bolter isn't a good deal. But you're paying the points for guaranteed effective firepower, even when you're stunned or when you're moving 12" to counterassault with your Terminators. Its weapons are also worth more because they're attached to an AV14 platform, so they'll be sticking around longer.

Allaros, since you're an IG guy, think of it in terms of the Leman Russ Exterminator. For the points, Hydra Flak Cannons are clearly the more powerful option, because they'll put out double the shots for a little under the same points. However, the Exterminator brings more to the table than pure firepower, because AV14 is a lot more likely to be sticking around, and Hydras have paper armor and squadron rules working against them. The Exterminator is also more effective on the move, because it can still fire its main weapon to full effectiveness. This means that it can support an infantry advance, or maneuver to engage targets that are hiding out of LOS. The Exterminator isn't a good choice in a mech list, because Hydras get you more AV12 and Chimeras provide them with cover, but Exterminators could have their place in a foot list, which synergizes well with AV14. Similarly, the standard LR doesn't have a place in every army, but works really well with a SM gunline.

- Now, take that Exterminator and give it the ability to reliably deliver your primary counterassault unit where you need it to go. The LR is a transport, but it has several unique advantages that make it a good choice in this role (beyond just being the only choice). It's C:SM's only assault transport, which is vital for a counterassault unit, and it's the only transport that can carry Terminators. Its massive durability also negates the one ranged counter to TH/SS Termies, which is weight of fire. Focused small arms fire can whittle Terminators down, but it won't scratch a LR.

- Finally, there are some side benefits to having a massive, mobile AV14 hull running interference for your army. You can use it as an area denial system, to block movement or LOS. The possibilities are endless.

It's not the most amazing vehicle ever (it's too expensive to be a "must have" or overpowered), and it's prone to bad match-ups, but it's definitely worth the cost in an army that synergizes well with it.

I typically run 2 vanilla land raiders at 1000 to 1500 points army. I put 5 marines in each to make them scoring units and then roll them down the field supported by 2 dreads. I've had almost not trouble in destroying my enemy's anti tank units with the las cannons and power of the machine spirit. The land raider's durability is unparralled by any tank with its av 14, which means only a few units can actually damage it, and those units can usually be easily handled by the las cannons. Some armies face land raiders better than others. Guard is one of those such armies because of their access a lot of melta weapons.

Firstly let me note that several comments people have made I've already addressed, like field position and target saturation. See my previous comments for more, as for the new stuff...

Horst wrote:That puts you at around 180 points worth of firepower. 80 points is not unreasonable price to pay for increased armor, transport capacity, and an assault ramp.

It wouldn't be if you could use the vehicle as both a transport and a fire base at the same time...

grifter wrote:Allaros, from what I´ve gathered from your posts, you´re an Infantry-guy at heart, much like myself. I´m afraid we´re going to have a rough time understanding why tank-lovers love their shiny toys so much, just like they´re going to have a rough time understanding why we´d rather have more boots on the ground...

Hah, well, I can certainly understand the principles of mech lists. To be a proper treadhead, I'd certainly have to forget some of the things I've learned about this game. Still, I'd like to think that there is a real role here, even in infantry lists, and that it is worthwhile on its own merits.

Roboute wrote:Now, take that Exterminator and give it the ability to reliably deliver your primary counterassault unit where you need it to go.

Okay, I get where you're starting to go with the exterminator idea, but is the LR only good for counterassaults?

Or is it a real idea to make an assault by moving forward slowly at 6" and firing a lascannon or two? Slow rolling advance somehow seems insane to me, but perhaps that's just what they're trying to accomplish...

Cryage wrote:Monoliths are like Landraiders that they seem to do psychological damage to your opponent.

At first I scoffed, as psycological stuff only works against noobs. On second thought, though, you could bring the Prussian's idea of gravity into this. Three land raiders filled with squads of berzerkers and abbadon puts 1600 points onto a VERY small footprint. Talk about force concentration. If your opponent is forced to deal with your units, they're basically going to be dealing with all of them at once in one place, which is something that hordes can't do. Given that the assault ramp sort of picks up some of the field position benefits of a horde...

On a side note, I believe that if anything is good enough to be able to be made to work, it should be able to be spammable. Three posessed LR's with three squads of berzerkers and kharn for 1500 points?

The only land raiders worth taking are the Grey Knight God hammer pattern land raiders with psybolt ammo + multimelta.

You got 4 antitank guns, 3 at long range and you ignore stunned/shaken results.

But they are competing against S8 autocannon dreads so if you use them, it's going to be a themed army. Aka, gimping yourself on purpose.

grifter wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Here's my take on the LR:

My LR is full of Termies, and they are going to ruin your day if they get close enough. That means you must to stop them before they get there. So I put those Termies inside a LR, to ensure that they will get there. And the LR is very difficult to bring down thanks to the AV 14. This means that my opponent will have to use most of his anti-tank fire to bring down the LR, and that means his anti-tank is not pointing at my four other transports, which are considerably weaker at AV 11.

So it's a 2-for-1 deal: you get a delivery system that forces your opponent to concentrate on it, and thus is also a decoy for the weaker transports to get through.

So, your opponent´s bad target priority makes Landraiders better? That´s true for most units though, I should think?

What part is bad? it creates a wicked problem for my opponent: either take out the bulk of my AV 11 transports, or else take out my AV 14 transport. You are either going to let through a lot of my troops, or else one unit that is particularly good at smacking you around. That's the point I'm trying to make: the LR throws a wrench into target priority by creating a must-destroy target that is actually very difficult to kill, and thus takes the heat off of my other threats that might not be quite so hard to kill.

Allaros wrote:At first I scoffed, as psycological stuff only works against noobs. On second thought, though, you could bring the Prussian's idea of gravity into this. Three land raiders filled with squads of berzerkers and abbadon puts 1600 points onto a VERY small footprint. Talk about force concentration. If your opponent is forced to deal with your units, they're basically going to be dealing with all of them at once in one place, which is something that hordes can't do. Given that the assault ramp sort of picks up some of the field position benefits of a horde...

On a side note, I believe that if anything is good enough to be able to be made to work, it should be able to be spammable. Three posessed LR's with three squads of berzerkers and kharn for 1500 points?

Sadly, CSM Landraiders can´t even fire while driving 12" unlike the VSM´s. ;(
And, from my experience, Berzerkers simply don´t deliver the punch that, say Thunderhammer-Termies or Paladins do. For now, I´m afraid, CSM are a shooty army with some CC thrown in. It sure would be a fun list to play though, and a very rough matchup for some armies (like I said, the Landraider is more of a metagame-piece imho).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:

grifter wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Here's my take on the LR:

My LR is full of Termies, and they are going to ruin your day if they get close enough. That means you must to stop them before they get there. So I put those Termies inside a LR, to ensure that they will get there. And the LR is very difficult to bring down thanks to the AV 14. This means that my opponent will have to use most of his anti-tank fire to bring down the LR, and that means his anti-tank is not pointing at my four other transports, which are considerably weaker at AV 11.

So it's a 2-for-1 deal: you get a delivery system that forces your opponent to concentrate on it, and thus is also a decoy for the weaker transports to get through.

So, your opponent´s bad target priority makes Landraiders better? That´s true for most units though, I should think?

What part is bad? it creates a wicked problem for my opponent: either take out the bulk of my AV 11 transports, or else take out my AV 14 transport. You are either going to let through a lot of my troops, or else one unit that is particularly good at smacking you around. That's the point I'm trying to make: the LR throws a wrench into target priority by creating a must-destroy target that is actually very difficult to kill, and thus takes the heat off of my other threats that might not be quite so hard to kill.

Well surely the rest of your army is a higher priority then one squad (even if it´s a good squad)? If you have absolutely not counter to the termies, then you might be tempted to shoot them, but even so, throw a sacrifical unit at them and shoot the rest of their army to pieces. Whenever you see a "Deathstar-unit" (as they call it in WH Fantasy, don´t know if it´s used in 40K as well) on the table, it becomes a a game of keeping away/tying up that unit and murdering the rest of their army...

EDITED BECAUSE THE PREVIEW-FUNCTION IS MY FRIEND, YET I IGNORE IT.

Ailaros wrote:

Roboute wrote:Now, take that Exterminator and give it the ability to reliably deliver your primary counterassault unit where you need it to go.

Okay, I get where you're starting to go with the exterminator idea, but is the LR only good for counterassaults?

Or is it a real idea to make an assault by moving forward slowly at 6" and firing a lascannon or two? Slow rolling advance somehow seems insane to me, but perhaps that's just what they're trying to accomplish...

I generally only use the LR for counterassaults, because the standard LR is the only one that I own and because as a VSM army without Shrike, Vulkan or Khan an assault army is pretty much out of the question. IMO, the standard pattern LR is the best choice for counterassault duties, because of its long range firepower and need to remain stationary to fire everything. It can fire away at full effect until the enemy gets close, then deliver your Assault Termies into the biggest advancing CC threat.

While you could more 6" a turn popping off shots, IMO it's not the best way to use a LR unless you've got an army of, say, Dreads and Razorbacks, which can move 6" and fire, in which case it's not so much about a slow rolling advance as the ability to maneuver away from your opponent's stabby bits while maintaining weight of fire.

However, in a list based on assaults or close-ranged shooting, a LRR or LRC would be more appropriate, and their role would definitely not be counterassaults. A LRR with the mandatory TH/SS squad would function as the spearhead of a Vulkan list, where you'll want to be in the opponent's face with your meltas and flamers anyways. A LRR is much more dangerous than a standard LR to MEQ, because those AP3 flamers can be fired after a 12" moveAn assaulty BA, BT or GK list might benefit from a LRC, where you can roll your deathstar into combat and then support with a multi-melta and all your anti-infantry firepower. Both of these tanks need to be played a little more carefully, because you're driving straight into melta range.

The Land Raider is basically a tax on Assault Terminators. Assault Termies are an extremely powerful CC unit, and they do something that practically no other unit does; they kill other deathstars, rather than hordes. That makes them very useful as counter-assault (or pre-emptive counter-assault, even) against deathstar-prone armies like Orks, Daemons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, etc. But they will NOT make it into combat without a LR, unless your opponent really, really screws up.

Deepstriking? If you try to DS within 12" of an enemy unit, you will be shot to death and then charged. Assault Termies die like flies to hordes, and they'll be starting off with a model or two less than they want. Furthermore, if you're DSing multiple squads, you can't be sure that they'll come in on the same turn, and even if they do, your choice of landing points is very circumscribed unless you want to take the chance of that squad simply disappearing due to mishaps.

Walking? You'll never get there. No-one likes Assault Termies, and everyone will devote some firepower to shooting them every turn. It's very easy to avoid models with a 12" threat radius and no ranged weaponry; three turns of shooting will cut them down one by one, until the survivors can simply be swamped. Also, walking them means giving your opponent a much greater measure of control over what engages them; even if you can manage to force him to fight one of your squads, he can speed-bump them with very little effort.

If you take two squads of 5 Assault Termies, you'll usually get maybe 4-6 into CC. But those will be assaults that your OPPONENT chooses, and they will get the charge. If you take one squad of 5 in a LR, you will get 5 into CC, and YOU get to pick who they attack, and you also get the charge. From a LR, you have a 21" assault range (12" move, 2" deployment, 1" Terminator base, 6" assault). That's nearly twice the bubble of a footslogging squad, and it's very, very important.

Field position cannot make up for the limitations of footslogging. A LR has a much, much wider radius; it can cover more of the board from a single position. Your starting position is always limited by the mission deployment; a Land Raider allows you to break those limits faster, which in a game where you only get 5-7 moves is a very important factor.

Now, all that said; no. Considered in isolation, a Land Raider is an unimpressive unit. It's only anything like worth the cost when considered as part of a unit of Assault Termies, and the purpose of that high cost is to push the price of Assault Termies up high enough that they aren't the single most cost-effective CC unit in the game. If a Land Raider was 170 points, 5 Assault Termies would be 370 instead of 450, at which point they'd be a must-take instead of simply valuable.

My view:

I use the LRC in my 1500 point SM army. Only one.

A unit does not need to be spammable nor viable at every point level for it to be good. The reason is simply synergy. Synergy, or force multiplication, improves a unit's effectiveness as the size of the force improves. Therefore, a unit which acts as a force multiplier becomes great once its point cost is less than the amount of improvement it offers the army via synergy. Below this level, the point cost is too high for the number of units it is able to multiply.

Therefore an assertion that, in order for a unit to be good it must be good at any point level, is false.

Additionally, not all units need to be spammable. This goes back to the same reason: synergy and force multiplication. If the force multiplication encounters diminishing returns by additional multipliers, a unit may not be spammable at the same point level that it becomes great.

When examining the opportunity cost of the LR + terminators (which is simply taking double the number of terminators) we should see how they play on the battlefield.

A LR offers immunity to the squad inside, as long as it lasts. While it is more vulnerable to single shots, the chance of a single shot destroying/immob it from far away is not that great. There are some special counters, such as railguns and lances, but not every army has those (and most units in the game have a counter that deals particularly well with them making this problem not unique to LRs).

Additionally the LR reduces the enemies ability to kite the terminator unit. The increased mobility means that you can threaten more things at once, giving more board control. The slow roll of moving forward 6" and firing the weapons is actually a great plan in many objective missions. This puts the opponent in a bad spot. Either they focus fire the LR down, or you are permitted to take control of the board. If you are still in the middle by mid game, your opponent is all but defeated as they will not have time to get to the objectives.

The LR also unlocks earlier assault opportunities if your opponent does not give you the board control. For instance, if they opponent holds their ground you will have assaults turn 2. Compare this to DSing double the number of models and you see that you won't even have the possibility of assault until turn 3. Sure, you might land with tons of guys, but the opponent will be able to either shoot/assault you or simply move out of your threat range.

The Deepstriking option also has a severe flaw: reduced target saturation. With 400+ points in reserves, you give your opponent an early superiority of forces. Early game this can be quite devastating as superior forces tend to be able to increase their superiority simply by overpowering the enemy.

For me, the real key is the board control. I can't express how many games my LRC/terminators/libby has won me by a slow roll to the middle with a couple razorbacks for support while my backfield puts down some firepower. I do frequently lose the LR, but its almost always a good trade either for what it destroys by itself, or the position it allows me to put the terminators in.

Remember that the game is only 5-7 turns. If you allow me uncontested board control until turn 4, you have already lost or at least drawn most objective missions.

Person who replies to threads about individual units by qutoes like : "read the codex and figure it out simpleton" is asking practicaly the same question...trolling or not? Heh, go figure.

Someone in this thread pointed out that you cant think about land raider from guard perspective, althought I am not now commenting about concrete relevance of his whole answer given to you, in general - he was pretty right. You know its not your fault, its that virus affecting every guard player I know - comparing every point of every unit given its firepower. Thats how all guard force org. slots roll, and when you have all full - then start squadroning and repeat whole process all over and over again...

One time I had discussion with one of IG players in my gaming group whinning after testing storm troopers how they never come when he needs them. I asked him why does not he try to add astropath to his company command squad for 30 points and guess what he told me : " For 30 points? No way, you know how many firepower I can add for that 30 points?". I was practically laughning my pants off, since most other codices either have similiar options for much much more points or dont have them at all. And all similiar "discussions" with all other IG players I know more or less are same, and I guess youre the same case.

I have personaly two vanilla marines armies - hybrid mech with landraider + assault terminators and second one is a bike army, so I had my own share of games with landraider - same as I guess you had your own while playing vs one. I even skimmed throught some or your battle reports, and to be completely honest - concerning space marine armies I saw in those reports, with absolutely clean conscience I and I bet that almost every SM player I know would agree that those were crappy, like REALLY crappy. I would bet that you played even vs very solid and well played (hopes that even average-rolling) SM players of all flavours - but from samples avaiable to me I of course cant really make conclusion that you did.

I am absolutely NOT saying that youre bad player, so if youre feeling that I am trying to say this then please - do not, for it is not so. But sometimes even simpler things require a little broader perspective which can be achieve easily by switching angle of view.

To summarize my view of few basic things - of which some were even discussed earlier :

1) All 3 basic SM patterns of landraider pretty much fires on full effect while moving six - heavy bolter wont help you much vs armour - you want to shoot those 2 lascanons. Redeemer will hardly hit (even with POTM) infantry with both sponsons at once, so youll be shooting one sponson and assault canon at best. And for crusader its move six fire all defensives vs infantry - or move six and fire assault canons + multi-melta vs armour (same ofc apply here for the redeemer)...

2) Landraiders do ADD to your speed. It is longest vehicle you can field as SM outside of the apocalypse. Simply deploy by side and gain that little extra movement by turning - and when disembarking use the advantage of larger terminator bases placed 2 inches far away from access point. You know a little bonus here + little bonus there are together much more usefull.

3) Landraiders can transport your HQ. This is sometimes much more usefull (double time for vanilla marines) that you may imagine - and may be harder to imagine how big advantage (well I should really rather call it a solution to a problem) this is, especially for a guard player - which does not have this kind of problem at all.

4) Landraiders makes auralike abilities of SM Psykers more usefull thx to the considerably increased range (Nullzone, Psychic hood...) - and some of them have great synergy with cargo which is landraider carrying (nullzone+assault terminators as the best example, because no matter how many times this sentence was written or spoken, it is simply still that good).

5) BIG moving piece of terrain. Can completely hide from line of sight or provide mobile cover for some squishy targets in SM armies (speeders, vindicators...).

6) Is BIG enough with the help of the cargo to completely and without problems (even after some casulties) surround objective to protect it from contesting by skimmers and bikes/jetbikes. Best fact is that this is all pretty much just one part or your army which can even operate solo - for similiar situations without landraider you would have to use combinatons of several rhino chasis tanks + speeders/dreads + whatever else, where one part would be much easier to destroy and therefore create access point for a contesting unit. This way I have won several games with rest of my army pretty destroyed by holding opponents home objective while contesting or holding mine.

7) Landraider full of terminators doesnt hurt you in KP missions.

8) Opponents which have hard time disabling landraider at range (which is by my own experience most of oponnents) will have to play very aggresively (which does not suit all armies) or must let landraider to deliver its cargo or to roll over a weaker flank. Take in mind that even railguns are far from autopenetrate on a landraider.

9) If there is a big line of sight blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the map - it is an Emperors blessing for the landraider - simply deploy in middle and then move into the center and then in next turn move to either flank according to the opponent reaction. Even when landraider will be not completely out of line of sight gaining cover possibly for two turns is sometimes a huge deal (especialy for armies which combine high str long range shooting + meltas), not counting the fact that a big piece of a terrain could pretty much give you +3 cover thx to the facing rule - which is much much more easier to gain for such a long tank (long for the imperial standarts ofc).

10) You may laugh how pathetic is basic lascanon pattern at antitank - but when many of your oponnents are fielding mass obliterators or xv88s you will learn to love it! (again nullzone can prove very yummy here).

11) When everything else screws up, still movable landraider can prove as usefull tool how to achieve tie in objective games by helping to hold your home objective/s. Mainly orks simply love this...

12) Playing deathstar have many unfavourable matchups. But playing deathstars which can kill other deathstars brings some extra favourable matchups for your army.

13) Some opponents gets carried away by spamming str 8 and 7 or 6 weapons while having very little / next to nothing in the melta (lance or whatever else which works) department. Sure those are not very good players, but I ve met enough to consider it an advantage - nevertheless if this happens, you know which tank wil lead your spear formation...

14)... again something from not very good opponents department - Newer or not very skilled players tend to panic and do mistakes when playing vs landraider + death star.

15) If you decide to risk several landraider army at the event you have very, very good armour saturation which is extremely problematic even to some top tier builds - still its risky to do, you need to know your meta perfectly. Even some GTS were won by this.


Well and now some notable disadvantages...

a) It is very dice oriented to play landraider - you pray you dont immobilize yourself on terrain and you shake everytime opponents picks up a dice to fire at it...Heck I cant think of other case when ONE roll of dice can pretty much end game for you in some situations.

b) Going first is most of the time half of the victory with a landraider. You really need to move at least to the center(so enemy can direct considerable firepower to deal with it and even when he does, youre almost at his doorstep) or trigger those smokes (or provide cover for other vehicles). Going second, especially against shooty armies is bad, VERY bad...so again a dice thing

c) Huge chunk of your points - if an opponent can deal with it effectively you need to have plan B - which will propably not work anyway...

d) Doesnt really work at low points level. (as does not bikes - but theyre pretty effective from 1500+ - so I dont really get your point that every unit should work at every point level - I think it has something to do with your IG ilness)

e) Bubblewraps hurt - sure you could go 7 termies + HQ in a crusader with some claws - this will help a lot in this case, however all previously mentionned disadvantages will me more painfull for you.

Not everyone who spams S 7 or 8 guns is a bad player

Some armies have no choice, as they have no reliable s 9 or 10, no melta and no lance weapons (orks for example).

Other than that, a pretty good summary.

Hell, give me a pair of twin linked BS 4 lascannon and a BS 4 multimelta on my battlewagons, and i'd be a VERY happy camper, especially if you gave me the assault vehicle rules on a close-topped wagon, 14 all round armour, the ability to fire even at max speed etc. I'll give up a little troop capacity for that

LR are a solid unit. NOT overpriced, not undepriced. Some weapons make them go boom (melta,lances) but they make every other vehicle in the game go boom too (barring special melta/lance protection..)

If you'd rather spend the points elsewhere, feel free and more power to you, but multiple LR lists show up on the tourney tables around here for a reason..

Once again, lots of what people are saying is just repeating things I've already addressed or asked follow-up questions pre-emptively. Just a couple of things, though...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Field position cannot make up for the limitations of footslogging.

Spend a couple of years as a foot commander and you will understand just how wrong this statement is.

Ascalam wrote: multiple LR lists show up on the tourney tables around here for a reason..

Because they're great in high-points games with time constraints?

Jolrael wrote:its that virus affecting every guard player I know - comparing every point of every unit given its firepower.

I'm really, really not doing this. Please actually read what I've written so far.

Anyways, on to the new stuff...

Roboute wrote:While you could more 6" a turn popping off shots, IMO it's not the best way to use a LR unless you've got an army of, say, Dreads and Razorbacks, which can move 6" and fire, in which case it's not so much about a slow rolling advance as the ability to maneuver away from your opponent's stabby bits while maintaining weight of fire.

Why is this true? Light-side raiders get to shoot both lascannons at 6", while dark-side still get to shoot one. Why does it need to have other units also moving 6" and firing lascannons in order to be worth doing?

Jolrael wrote:7) Landraider full of terminators doesnt hurt you in KP missions.

There we go. That's another one.

So, the real benefits seem to be

- force concentration, with slight field position improvement
- few KP
- LOS blocker
- alpha strike that can survive without first turn

and in a LR spam army

- target type denial (in the extreme)
- pure 6"-per-turn rolling thunder

About right?

Ailaros wrote:Once again, lots of what people are saying is just repeating things I've already addressed or asked follow-up questions pre-emptively. Just a couple of things, though...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Field position cannot make up for the limitations of footslogging.

Spend a couple of years as a foot commander and you will understand just how wrong this statement is.

I have. I play Orks. Currently I play battlewagon rush, but when I started the game I played footslogger horde, during the latter end of 3rd Edition and almost all of 4th. You can put your units anywhere you please, but the plain and simple fact is that an assault unit with a 21" charge range is MUCH more effective than that same assault unit with a 12" charge range. In many ways, it's more effective than TWO units with 12" charge range each. Long charge range is vitally important.

Play a couple years with an assault-focused army and you will understand just how important that is.

Ailaros wrote:
So, the real benefits seem to be

- force concentration, with slight field position improvement
- few KP
- LOS blocker
- alpha strike that can survive without first turn

and in a LR spam army

- target type denial (in the extreme)
- pure 6"-per-turn rolling thunder

About right?

Not really. These are all nice benefits, but they're all secondary (with the exception of LR-spam lists). The important bit is that a Land Raider is the only reliable way vanilla SM have to deliver a hard-hitting assault unit into CC. For a vanilla SM list, Assault Termies are like Nobz are for Orks; a great unit, but ONLY when they can be dropped off directly into combat, or at least close to it. You need a Land Raider for that, as neither Deep Striking nor footslogging will accomplish it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Play a couple years with an assault-focused army and you will understand just how important that is.

I have, actually. I'd note that last time you played horde was before there were run rules. Furthermore, field position is basically how armies like DE work at all.

40k is a game of limited space, your opponents can only run so far if they have nowhere safe to run to.

Yes, having a land raider is more guaranteed to get you there by turn three, but it's a lot of points to spend on a relatively minor mobility upgrade. I mean, if we were talking about the storm raven, that would be one thing, but with a unit that can be kept pace with by units on foot, well...

How can units on foot keep pace?

Do you not see a difference between 6+ d6 and 12?

We're not talking about running; we're talking about attacking, and area denial.

The 'mobility' benefit of the Land Raider is the extra charge range, not the extra movement range. As I've said a couple times, on foot you have a charge radius of 12" (6" move, 6" charge). In a Land Raider, you have a charge range of 21" (12" move, 2" disembark, 1" base width, 6" charge), plus you're starting from a larger footprint.

In terms of board position, that gives you an enormously greater bubble of area denial. Anything within that radius has to consider that they might be charged by a unit of TH/SS Termies on their next turn. It makes them much more difficult to kite (due to board space limitations), it makes it a lot more difficult to hide behind impassable terrain (since they have more inches available to skirt around it) and it makes it possible to catch normally faster units like bikes or fast transports, since you'll be able to force them into that larger bubble a lot faster.

In short, a Land Raider increases the number of situations in which your expensive Assault Termies are useful by an order of magnitude. It's not a small upgrade to mobility at all. Granted, in order to take full advantage you have to give up shooting. . . but for the points, a Land Raider's shooting isn't very impressive anyway, and giving it up for a turn isn't a huge penalty.

Ok then, what is the consensus on spamming those land raiders + assault termies?

I am planning a 2000 point Space Wolves army consisting of 3 squads of terminators, 3 characters (obviously including Logan) and 3 Redeemers.

My mate and I have been having arguments all week as to whether this is a good idea.

What do you all think?

Wouldn't Terminator/LR spam be done better with Deathwing?

Redeemers...

So much hilarity in one thread!

I feel the need to point out that the OP is doing a CSM army, so all the detail on SM raiders is a bit off topic for him. Because SM raiders of certain variants are just godlike. CSM land raiders are a whole different cake. Baked by the apprentice chef. It's his first day. And he's never stepped in the kitchen in his life.

It's not appetizing, but foods food and will keep you alive

Joey wrote:And when your opponant finally blows it...out storm a unit of elite combat infantry, who run out and kill everything. Blowing up a land raider is only ever a pyrric victory.

...yes, blowing up for 250p+ gunbus in your deployment zone and forcing your elite combat infantry to run into the teeth of my plasma guns/cannons and small arms fire...is a completely Pyrrhic victory. Yes. You keep thinking that.




CSM land raiders are worse than vanilla ones. They can't get a multimelta, and they don't have PotMS, and they don't have the hard-on inducing crusader and the tempting redeemer. It's true. And we have the bizzaro (without PotMS) combination of heavy bolter and two lascannons, that have to fire all at the same target.
CSM land raiders are first a transport, secondly a tank. What they bring to CSM is a transport you can assault out of. SM don't have bezerkers, we do Possessed are hilarious to pop into a landraider, especially when your opponent is one of those people who say possessed are utterly worthless and thus let them reach their line and charge out of their transport. Even plain IOK CSM in a landraider, parked on an objective can be a hard to shift force that can zip out and contribute heftily to a fight (2 meltaguns/combimelta (or plasma's), 40 attacks on the charge) and requires the right tools to remove- meaning the right tools are not being used elsewhere.
The downside- Land raiders cost a ton, and with the hefty cost of most CSM units, you're looking at alot of points, meaning the right tools to take care of the afore mentioned raider might not be needed in many other places. They cost alot for few guns on a rock hard body, and potentially a key assault. This minimizes your bodies on the table, for a vehicle that blows almost like a rhino to a meltagun. And you are sending it into meltagun range. And against armies with an anti-tank alpha strike unit/s (meltavets in a vendetta, LSS/scout bikes etc) the landraider cringes, as you can wrap it but wrapping it is going to take the rest of your rather smallish force, vastly limiting your deployment because of 1-2 kamikaze units ! Against most mech CSM armies, these units more have a choice of which rhino do I feel like blowing up. When my cheap rhino gets blown in my deployment zone by such a unit its a bit "meh." When my 250+ land raider gets blown in my deployment zone and my 'zerker's have to footslog, my response is a bit more " !"

In short- They're alright. Depends on your local meta. They aren't a "Do not buy!!!" unit/model, but for me its more of an optional add-on to my army that I can use every now and then, change the local meta for a little bit, have some fun, use the possessed for a change

Jihallah wrote:So much hilarity in one thread!

Care to elaborate ? I wanna laugh too.

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:And when your opponant finally blows it...out storm a unit of elite combat infantry, who run out and kill everything. Blowing up a land raider is only ever a pyrric victory.

...yes, blowing up for 250p+ gunbus in your deployment zone and forcing your elite combat infantry to run into the teeth of my plasma guns/cannons and small arms fire...is a completely Pyrrhic victory. Yes. You keep thinking that.

Don't play dumb, few things can reliably destroy a Land Raider before it gets to move (= at long range within a short window of opportunity). The only about surefire way to nail it are melta weapons, for which the statement you quoted is completely true.

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:And when your opponant finally blows it...out storm a unit of elite combat infantry, who run out and kill everything. Blowing up a land raider is only ever a pyrric victory.

...yes, blowing up for 250p+ gunbus in your deployment zone and forcing your elite combat infantry to run into the teeth of my plasma guns/cannons and small arms fire...is a completely Pyrrhic victory. Yes. You keep thinking that.

Unless you can shoot into close combat I don't see what your point is.

Unless you know you´ll be playing in an environment that has trouble dealing with AV 14, CSM Landraiders are there for one thing and one thing only IMO: delivering Abbaddon (+KB, obviously) if you absolutely feel that you HAVE to play him.

Everything else can be done cheaper with other stuff...

grifter wrote:Unless you know you´ll be playing in an environment that has trouble dealing with AV 14, CSM Landraiders are there for one thing and one thing only IMO: delivering Abbaddon (+KB, obviously) if you absolutely feel that you HAVE to play him.

Everything else can be done cheaper with other stuff...

Against a gunline with a lot of AP3 weapons, few MEQ players are going to stick an expensive assault unit in a rhino.
A Land Raider is very difficult to kill, especially if there's other weaker tanks (Defiler, preditor) that are more of a priority for AV.

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:And when your opponant finally blows it...out storm a unit of elite combat infantry, who run out and kill everything. Blowing up a land raider is only ever a pyrric victory.

...yes, blowing up for 250p+ gunbus in your deployment zone and forcing your elite combat infantry to run into the teeth of my plasma guns/cannons and small arms fire...is a completely Pyrrhic victory. Yes. You keep thinking that.

Don't play dumb, few things can reliably destroy a Land Raider before it gets to move (= at long range within a short window of opportunity). The only about surefire way to nail it are melta weapons, for which the statement you quoted is completely true.

Ailaros wrote:

Jolrael wrote:its that virus affecting every guard player I know - comparing every point of every unit given its firepower.

I'm really, really not doing this. Please actually read what I've written so far.

You do understand that that was clearly a joke? No need to trivialize my statements beacuse of that. You dont just seek conflict, do you? (besides starting something while saying - I am really NOT doing that reminds me of something -" Hi hon, you know, I am really NOT trying to get into your panties you know? I really admire you because I think youre really different from all other girls. Lets come out for a walk where you can tell me more about yourself so I can hear you better." - if you get my meaning)

I think you should rather give it a try instead of thinking how does that work in a theory. Besides threat range of assault terminators in a landraider is 22 inches while on foot its 12 tops - not even counting turning maneuvre while deploying. Also I think you really cannot appreciate fact that landraider can transport your HQ (as I cannot appreciate full potentional of foot guard) - its big deal for SM, especially of vanila flavour where there is not enough room in rhino transports + boost to range for aura-like abilities, which does not exist in many other codixes.

Its good to have an opinion, which should be constantly evolving after empiric experience, but making final judgements like theyre crystal clear is perhaps not the most reasonable thing you could do after making excerption from opinions of people which perhaps played 100+ games with Lraider (as I am perhaps underestimating you, and it is you who played 200+).

Jolrael wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Jolrael wrote:its that virus affecting every guard player I know - comparing every point of every unit given its firepower.

I'm really, really not doing this. Please actually read what I've written so far.

You do understand that that was clearly a joke? No need to trivialize my statements beacuse of that. You dont just seek conflict, do you? (besides starting something while saying - I am really NOT doing that reminds me of something -" Hi hon, you know, I am really NOT trying to get into your panties you know? I really admire you because I think youre really different from all other girls. Lets come out for a walk where you can tell me more about yourself so I can hear you better." - if you get my meaning)

I think you should rather give it a try instead of thinking how does that work in a theory. Besides threat range of assault terminators in a landraider is 22 inches while on foot its 12 tops - not even counting turning maneuvre while deploying. Also I think you really cannot appreciate fact that landraider can transport your HQ (as I cannot appreciate full potentional of foot guard) - its big deal for SM, especially of vanila flavour where there is not enough room in rhino transports + boost to range for aura-like abilities, which does not exist in many other codixes.

Its good to have an opinion, which should be constantly evolving after empiric experience, but making final judgements like theyre crystal clear is perhaps not the most reasonable thing you could do after making excerption from opinions of people which perhaps played 100+ games with Lraider (as I am perhaps underestimating you, and it is you who played 200+).

I'm sorry, as a recent new guard player, it does work like that. 30 points? Shibbedee, that's like 3 melta guns...