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I could see GW re-cutting the termi sprue to get god specific shoulder pads/heads in there.
Only problem is you'll only get one of each head/pad, just like the CSM current command sprue.

Marthike wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Marthike wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

I have my sources

If you are going to make a bold claim like this, we need more than "I have my sources".

Otherwise, this is just more Ghost21 double talk.

All current\leaked information at this point says Dark Angels are next, followed by 6th Edition, followed by Chaos Space Marines.

What else do i say? #### told me who works in #### that knows #### so its reliable?

I have seen all the rumours and i have my opponion on all of them, not everything is Ghost21's info. Its up to you if you believe what i say anyway so believe what you like but I am backing black templar for next release unless, there is something comming next month, but I don;t think any 40k is getting released soon and chaos will be after the 6th ed i believe (this is my guess). However, before the 6th ed I do think black templar are next.

If you have information/news/rumors, can you put them into the BT thread or send them to kroothawk? We want info, but don't want to derail chaos. Don't give away your source, but please pass on what you can in the other thread.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Yeah i'm still trying to understand what you mean by that line...

Getting CSM out of Deamons Shadows?..., yeah like there was so many people who had more then 3 units of Deamons besides those playing Word Bearers...
...

I just mean that as long as Codex: CSM shared a book with daemons... there being 4 Greater, 4 lesser, and furies etc... and given the current codex format GW's game designers would never have enough space to add to the rules of either to better refine and represent the concepts of those two distinct armies.

If they had retained daemons in the CSM codex this edition we'd have ended up with 9 troop choices, all designed so as to be relatively even with atleast some of each other so as to not appear as if any one god is better than the others. Imagine a loyalist SM codex where they could choose from Tactical Squad, Blood Angels Tactical Squad, Dark Angels Tactical Squad, or Space Wolves Grey Hunters... while that might be neat in a book of unlimited size doesn't really accomplish anything. To a degree this is equivalent to whats in the CSM book but everytime the distinction between the Chaos gods are made the book sees the redundancy replicated. Its a redundancy that works once maybe twice but beyond that you're taking up resources with mutually exclusive units that add flavor to specific type of army but not to the concept of chaos on the whole.

Imagine a loyalist SM codex where they could choose from Tactical Squad, Blood Angels Tactical Squad, Dark Angels Tactical Squad, or Space Wolves Grey Hunters

First off, DA and standard are the same tactical squad, second off that's how it kinda works a bit now with the Special Characters granting an additional change to Combat Tactics. Now imagine this

Take Logan
Combat tactics changes to Acute Senses/Counter attack
Gains ability to take/gain weaponry (This has been done before in some of the IA books)

It'd be the exact same thing.

Maybe just to keep with the Legion theme instead of "God marks" should they go with legion over God specific.

Take "Master of the Iron Warriors"

Generic Legion rules lost, Iron warrior legion rules gained.
Lose/Gain weaponry.

Let there be one specific genetic template for the god/legion troops. A profile window that could be applied as broadly as combat tactics could be changed for twinlinking weaponry and gaining mastercraft on thunderhammers.

Khorne Mark: Furious Charge/Extra attack: Gains access to Khorne Wargear
Nurgle Mark: Feel no pain/Extra T : Gains access to Nurgle Wargear

So buying a Standard CSM troop would gain with Nurgle mark

FNP/+1 T/ Blight grenades

And buying a standard terminator with Khorne mark

Furious Charge/ +1A/ Khornate Chainaxes

We don't need entirely SEPARATE templates at all, if they could just make the mark standard a standard profile. Use something in the matter of a generic template that one can apply over each and every troop with a buy able mark/legion rules. And all you need otherwise is to make unique stuff outside of that.

The only issue would be making unique style Wargear, but that would help classify chaos better as it is, renegade weapons are worthless, don't represent chaos at all. Give me some plague spewers!

I propose two generic templates for chaos. One for legion rules, and one for God rules. That way the templates can be mixed and matched appropriately. These will be the replacements for Chaos instead of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics

ZebioLizard2 wrote:First off, DA and standard are the same tactical squad, second off that's how it kinda works a bit now with the Special Characters granting an additional change to Combat Tactics. Now imagine this

Now, lets just stop right there. It might not be the best example, but the point is that having distinct and seperate unit entries for so many troop choices that aren't different enough is a waste of space.

What you're talking about is just a way they can write the rules to waste less space, but given what I'm talking about it'd still be a waste of space. I'm not advocating the removal of cult units or changing their format, just that as it is and as it might have been without removing daemons... there would never be the opportunity for GW to add more units to refine the concept.

I don't really want to propose rules, though I think I've made my idea clear that Marks of Chaos are more a matter of distinction for Renegades while the distinctions for Legionaries are more a case of their respective legion.

What you're talking about is just a way they can write the rules to waste less space, but given what I'm talking about it'd still be a waste of space. I'm not advocating the removal of cult units or changing their format, just that as it is and as it might have been without removing daemons... there would never be the opportunity for GW to add more units to refine the concept.

What is the concept of chaos to you than? It seems we are at an impasse because I have no clue what you actually even desire from chaos. What would refine the concept of chaos more than actually getting the god marks and legion rules right. What sort of units would not show the concept of chaos better than properly done god marks, wargear actually done properly, along with properly done up units.

What are you actually looking for?

Their story is this quest for power in the face of limited and diminished resources resulting in their break from the Imperium. Where the Imperium has dug up ancient templates and designed new variants of vehicles and weapons, Chaos hasn't. The Chaos Legions have resorted utilizing daemons, to supplement their numbers and improve their technology. The Daemons themselves represent a truer form of Chaos in its almost uncontrollable form. Chaos marines use different means to harness these uncontrollable entities, binding daemons to weapons and warmachines that would just as likely want to kill them. The Chaos Renegades have largely stolen from the Imperium and likely traded or recieved aid from the Legions... while recruiting lesser mortals as fodder.

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM Legion units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... making possessed make more sense... and creating more of a continuum upto Daemon prince. Renegades should end up more like LatD with a few of the Legions units but much more similar to the current list with the inclusion of traitor guard and mutant units.

The other notion that refines Chaos is to deemphasize the big 4 gods. Chaos is supposed to be more nebulus in our understanding of it but have become so significantly defined by those 4. Everyone wants more in the way of "Cults" but they often forget there is also the "Obliterator Cult" and the "Raptor Cult" and understanding why some Chaos worshippers don't just choose one of the big 4 makes it alot more interesting. For example, the Obliterator cult are ex-techmarines who have bonded themselves to machines utilizing a daemon infused techno-virus... why couldn't they do that to a techmarine in a dreadnought.

The distinction between "Renegades" and "Legions" need to be made and not ignored as GW has done by treating them all the same. Marks of gods work for Renegades; they don't make sense when it comes to Legions. In a Renegade army, you'd see marks as a unit upgrade. In a Legion army the required upgrade would be "which legion" and anyone in that Legion that worships Khorne would be a Berzerker at this point. Thematically I think GW could also draw more distinctions between mutations through unintentional Chaos exposure and possession resulting in a more direct, desired, and intended exposure to Chaos. I think that should come out more regardless of where it appears though I'd tend to think both work in Legions, but possession doesn't strike me as being as likely in a Renegade force.

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... meking possessed make more sense.

So you want better wargear that represents chaos (which is what I asked for)

Possessed do make plenty of sense when you read into it a bit, they are chaos warriors who have received large amounts of daemonic gifts, daemonic, warped, but not yet chaos spawn or daemon prince, they are close to ascension...Or their own mindless damnation. They are as close to actual daemonkind as they can get without fully crossing over.

The whole daemon engine thing would be wonderful, but at the same time I worry that due to the daemonic split we may lose the ability to gain such things, after all the soul grinder is a perfect example, who's to say some of the more daemonic infused things will simply just wind up with CD rather than CSM? That is what I fear the most thanks to this entire split. That we may lose daemonic fueled things that aren't dreadnaught related.

Everyone wants more in the way of "Cults" but they often forget there is also the "Obliterator Cult" and the "Raptor Cult" and understanding why some Chaos worshippers don't just choose one of the big 4 makes it alot more interesting. For example, the Obliterator cult are ex-techmarines who have bonded themselves to machines utilizing a daemon infused techno-virus... why couldn't they do that to a techmarine in a dreadnought.

The obliterate virus isn't exactly a very willing one, most of them were forced into the change, though the iron warriors have enjoyed forcing it upon their best warriors, having cultivated the warp virus for their own uses. Raptor cults are honestly, just speed freaks, desiring speed, terror, and the desire to cause unholy fear within a populace with their jets. As for the obliterator cult virus, it absorbs weaponry and armor, at the time it was shown that a few actually consumed the dreadnaughts sarcophagus and integrated it's weaponry.

The distinction between "Renegades" and "Legions" need to be made and not ignored as GW has done by treating them all the same. Marks of gods work for Renegades; they don't make sense when it comes to Legions. In a Renegade army, you'd see marks as a unit upgrade. In a Legion army the required upgrade would be "which legion" and anyone in that Legion that worships Khorne would be a Berzerker at this point.

I would honestly say that I could agree with this however there are several legions which have meaningful interactions between marked units and other legions. I honestly would love to settle down completely with this idea, but however this would nullify several of the other legions most potent aspects. I'll simple use the most famous one for now

Black legion teams up with ALL the chaos gods, though they are undivided mostly, they have a variety of warbands and various other things that join up with them. They have even included raving warbands of bezerkers, plague marines, slaughterfiends, blight drones, tzeentchian sorcerer covens, raptor cults, obliterator cults, cults of the damned, and various other things. This is the main legion that would cause contention with such a rule.

One more as well, the word bearers are undivided, yet their goal and necessity is between all the chaos gods as demagogues of the entire host. Summoning daemons of each god and worshipping each and every one. You cannot simply say they would get generic daemons, as it wouldn't mesh well with this legion.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... meking possessed make more sense.

So you want better wargear that represents chaos (which is what I asked for)

Possessed do make plenty of sense when you read into it a bit, they are chaos warriors who have received large amounts of daemonic gifts, daemonic, warped, but not yet chaos spawn or daemon prince, they are close to ascension...Or their own mindless damnation. They are as close to actual daemonkind as they can get without fully crossing over.

I really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The whole daemon engine thing would be wonderful, but at the same time I worry that due to the daemonic split we may lose the ability to gain such things, after all the soul grinder is a perfect example, who's to say some of the more daemonic infused things will simply just wind up with CD rather than CSM? That is what I fear the most thanks to this entire split. That we may lose daemonic fueled things that aren't dreadnaught related.

The Soulgrinder in my opinion is conceptually silly. Pages and pages of fluff describe daemons as unwilling and uncontrolling entities... here comes the soulgrinder where a daemon willingly possess it and marches along with its fellow daemons. It really would have made more sense being Defilers where the daemon basically asserted itself, broke free, and went wild. Nope willing pact.

Daemon engines though are the distinctly "Chaos" vehicle. We have an army where all our vehicle kits with one exception is borrowed from another army. Our vehicle accessory sprue is pitiful when compared to the accessories of any of the loyalists who also share these vehicles. Daemon engines are uniquely chaos and distinguish them more from other MEQ's than anything else could. Before I put 2 defilers in my army, everyone mistook my CSM as just SM; so its not just a distinction of rules but a visual one.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The obliterate virus isn't exactly a very willing one, most of them were forced into the change, though the iron warriors have enjoyed forcing it upon their best warriors, having cultivated the warp virus for their own uses. Raptor cults are honestly, just speed freaks, desiring speed, terror, and the desire to cause unholy fear within a populace with their jets. As for the obliterator cult virus, it absorbs weaponry and armor, at the time it was shown that a few actually consumed the dreadnaughts sarcophagus and integrated it's weaponry.

And Berzerkers are just insane guys who run wildly at the enemy with chainaxes... (sarcasm off).... My point is that it's just as important to expand on them as it is to expand on the big 4 cults. In addition to elite versions of the big 4, Obliterators could see an interesting dreadnought, and Raptors should be part of the inevitable inclusion of aircraft. I was just giving an example of HOW things could be expanded, not that they necessarily should be in that way. The big 4 cults can still sit on their pedestals but more than half the legions were undivided and thus the undivided cults should get attention too.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I would honestly say that I could agree with this however there are several legions which have meaningful interactions between marked units and other legions. I honestly would love to settle down completely with this idea, but however this would nullify several of the other legions most potent aspects. I'll simple use the most famous one for now

Black legion teams up with ALL the chaos gods...

One more as well, the word bearers are undivided...

When it comes to "meaningful interactions"... you are only playing an army of about 50-100 models... meaning you're never really representing a "meaningful interaction" on the table. In my ideal, a unit of Legionaries have to choose a legion, but that doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be the same legion. Next you'd still have Berzerkers, Plaguemarines etc doing double duty as those cult units and the Legionaries of the respective Legion.

Black Legion are basically to allow for a themeless army, or in the least a theme of your own choosing. My ideal is already a free-formed "Legion" army with characterizations beyond the mandatory upgrade choice being left to the player's own characterization of his/her army.

Word Bearers are difficult to reconcile with the rest. Their modus opperandi, isn't one unit, its about being able to use about 8 different choices. I don't think Chaos Marines should necessarily see the type of distinctions between different daemons but Word Bearers could simply benefit from being able to use them differently; like taking them as a scoring troop choice, where others can't.

And Berzerkers are just insane guys who run wildly at the enemy with chainaxes... (sarcasm off)..

Khorne Berzerkers are Chaos Space Marines dedicated entirely to glorifying the Chaos God Khorne through hand to hand combat. Driven by bloodlust, their only purpose is to kill and destroy their enemies in the name of Khorne.

They are known to kill even their own allies if caught in the heat of battle or lacking alternative adversaries, a situation epitomised by Khârn the Betrayer. Their battle prowess has earned them a fearsome reputation on the battlefield, although it also leads to them being unable to form a single, cohesive and mutually supportive unit. Berzerker bands vary in size and strength, often lending their aid to whichever side offers them the greatest chance of combat and slaughter.

Why yes! Yes they are! That's the problem with defining an entire legion as one thing because Bezerkers are literally chaos marines who worship khorne who have removed sections in their brains to be truly fearless against all odds, and not to mention the world eaters are not ALL Bezerkers! Bezerkers are technically a specific type, they do have people who enjoy shooting and using ranged weaponry to spill blood, ride vehicles, even if most of them prefers the center charge up the middle in a MAIM! KILL! BURN! formation

The big 4 cults can still sit on their pedestals but more than half the legions were undivided and thus the undivided cults should get attention too.

Not arguing this, as I agree, but the problem is both the gods and the unmarked got shafted, so attention needs to be paid to both after all. The main issue is so much needs to be fixed!



I

really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

That's how they used to work in 3rd edition, they bought powers. In fact a daemon prince didn't use to be separate, it used to be that a chaos lord with at least 50 points of daemonic mutations counted as a DP, and could still take daemonic weaponry and various artifacts.

Daemon engines though are the distinctly "Chaos" vehicle. We have an army where all our vehicle kits with one exception is borrowed from another army. Our vehicle accessory sprue is pitiful when compared to the accessories of any of the loyalists who also share these vehicles. Daemon engines are uniquely chaos and distinguish them more from other MEQ's than anything else could. Before I put 2 defilers in my army, everyone mistook my CSM as just SM; so its not just a distinction of rules but a visual one.

Try using better models than for your infantry But yes I know, I enjoy the defiler too myself, the only problem is that I want a melee defiler, but at WS3 it really hurts against some things.

Black Legion are basically to allow for a themeless army, or in the least a theme of your own choosing. My ideal is already a free-formed "Legion" army with characterizations beyond the mandatory upgrade choice being left to the player's own characterization of his/her army.

That would be if the black legion wasn't already a thought out legion with its own types of rules. Black Legion aren't exactly comparable to Ultramarine's (Despite the fact they often are as the "generic" type), unless Ultramarine's can begin bringing in Furiso Dreadnoughts, with backup from Thunder wolves and Gray knight terminators. I will not begin to see black legion as the generic fall to guy. I believe that there should be a generic template, but black legion is not that template.

I don't think Chaos Marines should necessarily see the type of distinctions between different daemons but Word Bearers could simply benefit from being able to use them differently; like taking them as a scoring troop choice, where others can't.

Yes because Word Bearer players really want another version of "Generic Crappy Daemons number 22" again to deal with.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why yes! Yes they are! That's the problem with defining an entire legion as one thing because Bezerkers are literally chaos marines who worship khorne who have removed sections in their brains to be truly fearless against all odds, and not to mention the world eaters are not ALL Bezerkers! Bezerkers are technically a specific type, they do have people who enjoy shooting and using ranged weaponry to spill blood, ride vehicles, even if most of them prefers the center charge up the middle in a MAIM! KILL! BURN! formation

I'm pretty sure at this point its been said, all World Eaters are berzerkers, but not all berzerkers are world eaters. I'm not saying it makes a great deal of sense just that its what's been said.
My point is that its easy to ignore an idea when you generalize its characterization... hence the sarcasm in making a statement that did just that to Berzerkers.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The main issue is so much needs to be fixed!

Exactly and yet people are insisting on significant redundancies that cut into just how much GW might accomplish.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

That's how they used to work in 3rd edition, they bought powers. In fact a daemon prince didn't use to be separate, it used to be that a chaos lord with at least 50 points of daemonic mutations counted as a DP, and could still take daemonic weaponry and various artifacts.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not talking about a Lord, I'm talking about a unit of possessed. I realize this sort of continuum existed before... been playing Chaos since 2nd... I'm just saying as a defining aspect of Chaos it should exist in other parts of the codex. Does an Aspiring champion find a daemon weapon and *snap* he's a Lord, or *snap* he's possessed. If a possessed marine is on a path toward being a daemon prince then giving them some sort of lesser daemon weapon to turn them into a unit that actually deserves to be called "elite" make sense... even if the use of that as opposed to their own abilities is inconsistent.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Try using better models than for your infantry But yes I know, I enjoy the defiler too myself, the only problem is that I want a melee defiler, but at WS3 it really hurts against some things.

You'd think bright orange and purple would be enough to convey "non-loyalists"... Chaos' basic infantry should be more distinct, because if your champions don't have horns on their helmets they look like marines until you lean in. I just wish I still had my classic miniatures with their more organic aesthetic, which broke up the smoothed armored profile and made them more distinctive at a distance.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That would be if the black legion wasn't already a thought out legion with its own types of rules. Black Legion aren't exactly comparable to Ultramarine's (Despite the fact they often are as the "generic" type), unless Ultramarine's can begin bringing in Furiso Dreadnoughts, with backup from Thunder wolves and Gray knight terminators. I will not begin to see black legion as the generic fall to guy. I believe that there should be a generic template, but black legion is not that template.

In a free form codex where a player isn't bound by a rigid concept, there is little distinction between Black Legion and the rest, unless we go back to cult units being "elites" except in their respective Legion... and some intermediate level for Black Legion, like those units being Elite but scoring.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Yes because Word Bearer players really want another version of "Generic Crappy Daemons number 22" again to deal with.

Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies, and GW isn't going to do that anytime soon. I liked having different daemon but having the redundancy of different types of daemons clutters a codex. It'd make sense enough if summoned Daemons simply recieved a buff of some sort when summoned by Word Bearers.

aka_mythos wrote:Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies

I don't know about that, the Daemon codex has a lot of varied options (HQ, elites, FA) that you won't get by having different daemons in the CSM codex. Perhaps just 4 demons (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Screamers, Daemonettes) rather than the whole array available in daemons (no Bloodcrushers, nurglings, flamers, horrors, seekers, flesh hounds...), thereby diversifying the CSM codex without making Daemons obsolete.

Generic demons is probably the worst part of the current codex.

JustDave's codex handles this fantastically and is a blast to play with. You select a template, so to speak, for each of your HQ options, and these open up a few extra options and special rules for your units. Every unit has to be "branded" as following one of the templates you've chosen. It's straightforward and sensible, allowing for just enough flexibility to make fluffy legion armies without being overpowered at all.

Daemons are handled how they always should've been handled. You have generic daemons, yes, but then you can apply god-specific marks to them. Sure it doesn't create the bewildering variety chaos used to have, but it's good enough to satisfy the desire for god-specific daemons.

If GW ended up NOT following these basic ideas, I would honestly be surprised.

biccat wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies

I don't know about that, the Daemon codex has a lot of varied options (HQ, elites, FA) that you won't get by having different daemons in the CSM codex. Perhaps just 4 demons (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Screamers, Daemonettes) rather than the whole array available in daemons (no Bloodcrushers, nurglings, flamers, horrors, seekers, flesh hounds...), thereby diversifying the CSM codex without making Daemons obsolete.

Generic demons is probably the worst part of the current codex.

Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices. Rather than that I always thought Word Bearers should have been the way for a Daemon army to optionally incorporate CSM.

Similarly I though Alpha Legion and Renegades could inject the optional CSM into a LatD type army.

I'm going to agree with the idea that generic Daemons should get to purchase marks, but they should get a special rule or two with that purchase. Also: Option for Jump Infantry. (Furies as infs? FFFFF)

That's perfectly viable too. I just don't think CSM should be duplicating CD unit entries.

About plastic releases, I've started a Chaos army recently. And I didn't buy any havocs, dread, raptors or oblits. IMO, they are either metal (havocs or oblits), crap (raptors) or metal crap (dread). If they solve this units making them in plastic, I think they will earn lots of money. Oblits could be finecast, but a real good model is needed, not like that DE supposedly multipose grotesque crap.

Hoping them to hear me (silly me...), I'm buying/painting as much as current plastic models I can in order to save time to paint those wanted new plastic models. Pray with me...

aka_mythos wrote:Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices.

They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

Ultimately, the problem is that Chaos Legions need to be handled like Space Marines - at least each major Legion (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Black Legion) should be a distinct codex. Ideally other legions should get their own codices as well, the difference between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors is more distinct than the difference between Space Marines and Space Wolves.

But we all know this won't happen. So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

I think daemons could easily be handled as such: single entry for a lesser daemon choice. May purchase mark of x for +y points, mark of x gives following bonus to statline. Additionally, daemon unit may purchase the following generic upgrades. Done. With the right options, etc. you could possibly come close to replicating a bloodletter/pinkhorror/daemonette/plaguebearer but the daemons in the CD book would invariably be superior choices.

biccat wrote:They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

I'm not saying you have no overlap just a deemphasized overlap. CSM have so much that stolen, everything else needs to be emphasized to distinguish them better from other MEQ armies. The problem with daemons is that when you have 4 troop choice unit entries as opposed to the various other proposed ideas its hard to say they're not that big a part of the book.

The list of units in the same category as "cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler" is where the codex entries need to grow, but grow in distinctive ways not cookie cutter... "this is the khorne version with an extra -" whatever.

biccat wrote:So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

Exactly but thats always been a problem with Chaos in the 3rd-5th edition format of the codex, its alot of ideas that are much bigger than a single book can hold. GW hasn't done it justice. Even when it did 3.5ed codex and everyone was happy that created severe imbalance in the game as a whole and showed it was overly complex to have 10+ distinct rule altering flavors in a single book.

aka_mythos wrote:I'm not saying you have no overlap just a deemphasized overlap. CSM have so much that stolen everything else needs to be emphasized to distinguish them better from other MEQ armies. The problem with daemons is that when you have 4 troop choice unit entries as opposed to the various other proposed ideas its hard to say they're not that big a part of the book.

The list of units in the same category as "cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler" is where the codex entries need to grow, but grow in distinctive ways not cookie cutter... "this is the khorne version with an extra -" whatever.

I actually don't see a problem with CSM being a mix of SM and Daemons.

I don't see how marks that are simple enough to be practical (e.g. +1 attack for Khorne, +1 initiative for Slaanesh, +1 T for nurgle, or +1 invul. for Tzeentch) make the units "distinctive." And if the rules are sufficiently complicated to be distinct (MoK gives rage, +1 attack, +1 WS, and fleet of foot; MoN gives +1 toughness, FNP, -1 I, defensive grenades; repeat for MoT & MoS) you may as well have different unit choices.

You can take a unit of Chaos Space Marines and give them the Mark of Nurgle, but that doesn't compare - either in game or fluff terms - to actual Plague Marines. I don't see how this works with Demons.

Exactly but thats always been a problem with Chaos in the 3rd-5th edition format of the codex, its alot of ideas that are much bigger than a single book can hold. GW hasn't done it justice. Even when it did 3.5ed codex and everyone was happy that created severe imbalance in the game as a whole and showed it was overly complex to have 10+ distinct rule altering flavors in a single book.

*Ahem* It was specific legion rules that caused the issue, not the amount of rules itself. Or if you want to be generous, it was just a balance issue.

Iron warriors is the common one cited, back when obliteration really were Godlike range rape and having 0-4 as an option really, Really, beat down the enemy. It's like if IG could take more of their gunships for far cheaper.

Balance does not correspond with specific rules. We have Space wolves to thank for that. As even someone who isn't locked in a complete vacuum could see that Gray Hunters (They cost the same as a Chaos Space Marine, cheaper than a Tactical squad, and are better) It doesn't matter if there's 100 rules, or 1 single rule, balance is a hard issue to pin down, but don't think it was caused because of a lot of rules at once.

biccat wrote:
I don't see how marks that are simple enough to be practical (e.g. +1 attack for Khorne, +1 initiative for Slaanesh, +1 T for nurgle, or +1 invul. for Tzeentch) make the units "distinctive." And if the rules are sufficiently complicated to be distinct (MoK gives rage, +1 attack, +1 WS, and fleet of foot; MoN gives +1 toughness, FNP, -1 I, defensive grenades; repeat for MoT & MoS) you may as well have different unit choices.

That first think doesn't bother me. I'm talking specifically about having each of those as 4 separate unit entries. If the rules get so involved as to warrant separate unit entries then they have a greater emphasis than the basic Chaos Space Marine unit. This is suppose to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and not just Codex: Chaos. Having 4 unit entries is having 3 more units then necessary... meaning you've now taken up 2-3 pages in a book that would thematically serve the concept better by being something else. The Chaos Daemon concept is so big an important it got its own book, why must it then be distilled down again, that defeats the purpose of having a separate book.

biccat wrote:I don't see how this works with Demons.

It simply shouldn't because this is Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Legions, or Renegades... not Codex: Chaos Daemon and not Codex: Chaos everything and the kitchen sink. Daemons are present only as a thematic device, and should not be as the driving theme of the book.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:*Ahem* It was specific legion rules that caused the issue, not the amount of rules itself. Or if you want to be generous, it was just a balance issue.

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex. Complexity comes from volume not from individual army vairants. The fact that between legions, veteran skills, and marks you could generate over 300 configuration and combinations of rules for the basic Chaos Space Marine squad before purchasing weapons and champions. That is a level of complexity that was too much for most non-chaos players to get a grasp on. It'd be fine if all the books were that way but most weren't and those that were tended to have more modeling demand and more downsides or limitations on abilities.

GW could have fixed the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations or distinct daemons, but it chose to pretty much kick them all and thats why the current book suffers. The current book is a baseline starting point and its a case of "how much more can be squeezed in with reformatting?"-Only so much. So in this world of scarce resources a limited number of pages in a codex, how much new stuff do people want versus retreading?-Because those will compete for pages. And how much vairation can you squeeze in before it again becomes cumbersome?

mythos, the 'fix the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations' argument glosses over the fact that the design studios dominant design philosophy at the time was to oversimplify and restrict pretty much everything. What you propose would never have resulted from that environment.

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex.

You believe this? Coming from Jarvis "I've ruined DA by my oversimplifying methods for how many versions now?" The fact of the matter was him and alessio wanted to simplify EVERYTHING down. The eldar, chaos codex, DA, and Orks are the best examples. All flavor Gone. And compared to chaos, they didn't even have this many options to begin with.

Not to mention more books = more money, so splitting it into two just made it easier to sell more kits.

Zebio, agreed, although Orks are a terrible example, by that point the design studio realized their mistake, this is why the ork codex has a ridiculous number of units available to it by comparison and more than its fair share of special/unique rules.

chaos0xomega wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I'll take Tallyman, a bunch of plague marines and plague bearers...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex.

You believe this? Coming from Jarvis "I've ruined DA by my oversimplifying methods for how many versions now?" The fact of the matter was him and alessio wanted to simplify EVERYTHING down. The eldar, chaos codex, DA, and Orks are the best examples. All flavor Gone. And compared to chaos, they didn't even have this many options to begin with.

Not to mention more books = more money, so splitting it into two just made it easier to sell more kits.

And seeing as Alessio is the reason I wouldn't touch Kings of war it makes things crystal clear. But a comparison of the DA and vanilla marine Codex highlights how different they are. The lack of things like bionics, an over crowded elite section and take a special character to have different troop types etc is the driving force behind me losing all interest in 40k. The eldar codex was at least vaguely acceptable, if very constraining for representing a craftworld. I can only hope flavour returns and options are again put forth.
But theres the danger of chaos specifically becoming too complex.
Some people want daemons, some all traitor marines other cultists rising up, some with triator guardsmen/PDF in with those cultists/marines, others a mix. Then there is also rules for specific legions, mix and match legions and cults, then ofcourse custom lords, princes etc. And within that complexity even if they do manage to get it into a single codex, you can bet there won't be balance because there is simply too much of a workload for it all to be playtested thoroughly. (bear with me and just assume this is reasonable practical people making this). Even as far back as 2nd edition a single chaos lord could be nigh on unkillable at a very high points cost, and kill anything it went for and win games by itself, be careful what we wish for. Or better yet, make GW give me a developers job, I'll bring back customise your own characters and no need for compulsory special characters!

biccat wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices.

They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

Ultimately, the problem is that Chaos Legions need to be handled like Space Marines - at least each major Legion (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Black Legion) should be a distinct codex. Ideally other legions should get their own codices as well, the difference between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors is more distinct than the difference between Space Marines and Space Wolves.

But we all know this won't happen. So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

Demons with a penalty - Elite choices, +5 pts per demon (maybe too much but the thought of berzerkers backed up by bloodletters is a scary thought)

Bring back the true marked versions with the limitations. MoN you get FNP and +1 T but you can't take HW... MoS you get +1 I and switch AC for Blastmasters, Doom Sirens for Flamers/Meltaguns

chaos0xomega wrote:mythos, the 'fix the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations' argument glosses over the fact that the design studios dominant design philosophy at the time was to oversimplify and restrict pretty much everything. What you propose would never have resulted from that environment.

Agreed. The point was that the limited variations would have been enough to bring the book into balance from being overly complex in the way they conveyed that it was... that is to say to bring it inline with the other codices of the day the reduced variation would have been enough. GW's failed reinvention was just flawed. Now for the next codex, you can move back in the direction of 3.5ed, but you can't go as far back to the extreme that book did, or you just repeat its flaws.

People want everything that was in the 3.5ed book. There is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is expecting it all in one book and I've been fairly consistent when someone says they want something that its going to be at the expense of something else. My baseline for saying its too much is when you start putting back too much.

This is what's in my head... given the limited amount of space and GW's desire to always add "new"...
You can have any 2 of these in a single book, 3 if you're willing to take a compromised version:
Legions
Daemons
Renegades
Marks
Expanded Cults
Veteran skills
LatD cultists