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It should be noted that Cain has shown religious piety on occasion. Even to the Emperor in his Omnissiah format (despite the much more strident tone he has for the Mechanicus - ie: These technofetishists keep playing around with the Necrons and will get us all killed).

Of course Cain revers the Emperor in his own pragmatic way.

Melissia wrote:Cain is the exception, not the rule. Ibram Gaunt, by contrast, was deeply religious and had a great deal of reverence and respect for the Sisters given what few times that they are mentioned in his lore. This is why guardsmen are inspired whenever they see Sisters fighting near them, for example-- they have a very similar effect to Space Marines in that regard.

One need only read Ibram's 2nd Encounter with the host vessel of Saint Sabbat.

But then again, as a soldier, Sabbat is a Saint he can respect - She is (after all) a Joan of Arc expy.

Beaviz81 wrote:I'm on the verge of dismissing Cain's POV due to the fact he is smarking over old sport-results, which should have been an irrelevant point, hadn't I myself smarked so much about it myself.

Not to mention that such games do not happen in a Schola, anyways, if one were to go by studio material.

Lynata wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I'm on the verge of dismissing Cain's POV due to the fact he is smarking over old sport-results, which should have been an irrelevant point, hadn't I myself smarked so much about it myself.

Not to mention that such games do not happen in a Schola, anyways, if one were to go by studio material.

The military and sports will always go hand in hand as it builds attachments and cooperation. As for not happening? You are referring to the segregation of the students or?

Beaviz81 wrote:The military and sports will always go hand in hand as it builds attachments and cooperation. As for not happening? You are referring to the segregation of the students or?

Precisely - imho the Cain books pretty much disqualify themselves with some of their blatant contradiction of SoB fluff and it'd be better to regard them as a satire (which they were quite possibly meant to be).

It can be fun adopting the information from various licensed products into a personal summarization of fluff, but in the case of inconsistencies one is forced to choose what kind of sources to put your trust in: a random author's novel, or what the creators and managers of the setting have written? It's a choice all of us have to make for themselves, but I can't resist pointing out that some sources are "troublesome" when referenced in a debate like this. It's like trying to build a consensus out of two history books: one from the US and one from North Korea. They weren't meant to be compatible in all details and each book is its own independend interpretation ... just like BL novels (as stated by the people who write them).

Sports themselves ... no problem there! In my mind, the Scholae are probably run like a Nazi-German NaPolA.
http://brenda-ralph-lewis.suite101.com/training-the-hitler-youth-a196317

Well an official match in rugby that I have zero problem seeing, it would depend more on the individual's view of if male and female competed against each other in the same sport.

Beaviz81 wrote:Well an official match in rugby that I have zero problem seeing, it would depend more on the individual's view of if male and female competed against each other in the same sport.

*nods* Which just doesn't happen if you go by the Codices' exact choice of words.

Unless you count rugby matches as "religious ceremony", that is.

Heyh sport is religion for me, so I can see it happen.

"We will now go live in this religious ceremonial rugby -match between the cadets of the Arbitrators and the Sororitas..."

Hahaha.

Lynata wrote:*nods* Which just doesn't happen if you go by the Codices' exact choice of words.

Unless you count rugby matches as "religious ceremony", that is.

I'm going to point out the codices 'exact choice of words' itself is actually somewhat contradictory and suspect. After all, it does imply through poor choice of words that the Order Famulous also serve as mistresses to imperial nobles. (Which makes a sort of sense as they're Bene Gesserit expys)


I suspect, since Radical Inquisitors were able to set up a 'corrupt' schola that individual scholas may vary significantly at the sector level, just as the Ministorum does (which it not only says flat out in the 40k rulebook, but in most other books on the subject, before anyone starts beating their chest and screaming 'no, it's the same everywhere').

I don't think the fanatical members of the Famulous serves as mistresses to the Imperial nobles. They can however turn a blind eye to the debauchery that can happen at court, and more intelligent guys knows better than to bring in the pros when they are around.

As for the Schola that varies, also I'm on sliding scales on what passes for a religious ceremony.

BaronIveagh wrote:I'm going to point out the codices 'exact choice of words' itself is actually somewhat contradictory and suspect. After all, it does imply through poor choice of words that the Order Famulous also serve as mistresses to imperial nobles.

Where exactly?

In the 2E Codex it says they are "a network of chamberlains, advisers and diplomats, whose role is to ensure that the Imperium's noble families work towards the ultimate good of Manking, brokering trade agreements, alliances and marriages between families".
In fact, this one also clearly points out that "the Famulous maintain their own strict lifestyle and strive to control the excesses of those they are assigned to".

In the 3E Codex it says they "serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisors and chatelaines, running the noble families' affairs and directing their businesses" - a wording also mirrored in the White Dwarf Liber Sororitas.

On a glance, I cannot recall ever reading the term "mistresses" in a studio source, at least not in the context you were hinting at. Are you sure you didn't confuse it with its usage as a form of address or various titles ("Mistress of Novices", "Repentia Mistress", etc.) within the Sisterhood?

Lynata wrote:Where exactly?

I could have sworn I saw some of what Baron was talking about in an FFG book - and mentally chalked that one up to simply an oddity/variation of the Calixis Sector.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:I could have sworn I saw some of what Baron was talking about in an FFG book - and mentally chalked that one up to simply an oddity/variation of the Calixis Sector.

Oh. That would be possible, I guess - FFG's RPGs deviate from studio material on more than one occasion, especially when it comes to the Sororitas.

Although in the first Dark Heresy rulebook where they talk about the Calixis Sector's training facility for new Sisters, they do mention how the Famulous are trained to "resist the secular temptations that are a constant threat to them" and how they must be "disciplined and incorruptible as they are sent out to fend mostly for themselves, and are surrounded by the sometimes morally questionable nobles to whose house they are attached to". That said, this was written and published by Black Industries before the license was transferred to FFG. I'm unsure if the Famulous' role might have been retconned in newer material, most notably the Blood of Martyrs supplement, which also suddenly multiplied the number of Sisters present in the Sector by a factor of x10.

Blood of Martyrs says that the Famulous need a strong set of communication skills and a distinct ability to stay calm under pressure, and are intended to ensure that the noble families say as honest, genetically pure, and true to the Imperium as they possibly can.

In describing the effect this has on the worlds on which he Famulous are stationed, the book says:

"[On worlds] Where the Sisters Famulous have worked over the last several millennia, tithes have been maintained or increased, trade has improved, and in general the population has fared better than other worlds."

The Famulous are quite popular, and it is considered a mark of future prosperity for a noble house to be offered services of one of the sisters-- they are almost never refused, and if they are, it is always with politeness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: the Sanctum Dialogous in the Calixis sector is said to be guarded by a thousand Battle Sisters. Quite a hefty garrison on top of the planet's PDF and a squadron of naval vessels assigned specifically to protect the building and prevent anyone from landing near by.

The Imperium values the Orders Dialogous quite highly apparently.

Ah, make that a factor of x100, then.

But no mention of "mistresses" anywhere? Because I don't recall ever reading it in this context, too, in any book.

Only mistress as in overseer and boss, not as in lover. I guess the mistress-thingy is Americanized English. Though the AC/DC-song Mistress for Christmas disagrees with me.

Lynata wrote:Ah, make that a factor of x100, then.

But no mention of "mistresses" anywhere? Because I don't recall ever reading it in this context, too, in any book.

They use the term 'chatelaine'. In the context it implies the wife or mistress of the noble. It's in Codex:SoB and again in BoM. If they meant the head of the household staff, they needed a different word. Chamberlain would have been a better choice, as it lacks the subtle connotation of having , ahem, additional duties.

Again, as I've said in the past, it's GW's poor editing, not an FFG thing.

Chatelaine is the female equivalent to chatelain - which merely means castellan or "commander of the castle".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelaine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelain
see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chateau

additional sources:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ch%C3%A2telaine
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chatelaine
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chatelaine

In wider meaning, it can also stand for "wife of the lord of the castle" - but focusing on this terminology is akin to claiming that "Lady" always means that the bearer is married, or that "Mistress" always means that the bearer is someone's lover. Which really makes the Sisters of Battle sound like a whorehouse, considering the widespread use of these titles. And there's a big difference between "mistress of a castle" and "mistress of a noble" in terms of meaning, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistress

wikipedia wrote:In modern parlance the term "châtelaine" usually refers to the wife of the owner, or the female owner of a large house or similar establishment. It may also refer to a housekeeper, or the keychain worn by a housekeeper.

I think that the context - in particular the other names given to Sisters Famulous performing in this function - makes it clear which of these things applies.

I don't think it's poor editing but rather reader mis-interpretation, but there you go.

Lynata wrote:
I don't think it's poor editing but rather reader mis-interpretation, but there you go.

"...serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisers and chatelaines, running the noble families' affairs and directing their businesses..."

Websters (granted, from an older copy):
1 a : the wife or mistress of a castellan
b : the mistress of a household or of a large establishment
2: a clasp or hook for a watch, purse, or bunch of keys

As I said, their use of terminology was poor in this case, as it could go either way (as the examples, including the part about directing their businesses, were among the duties of the wife of a noble into the 18th century). And for the love of god I should hope we all knew what a Chateau was.

It would have been better to use chamberlain:
a: chief officer in the household of a king or nobleman
b : treasurer

But as late as 3rd they were still stealing the image of chevaleresses without any of historical context or basing it on the Rule those orders actually followed (most of which were much more grounded in common sense) and parts from Frank Herbert novels.

The Sisterhood is, as a rule, a chaste organization. They're not sleeping with the nobles.

"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

Psienesis wrote:The Sisterhood is, as a rule, a chaste organization. They're not sleeping with the nobles.

"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

No, but they are sleeping with the administratum functionaries.

Psienesis wrote:"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

That, in my opinion, is nonsense. The Sisters specifically stopped calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, remember?

BaronIveagh wrote:No, but they are sleeping with the administratum functionaries.

Given that the Codex specifically mentions the convents' extreme isolation from anyone not belonging to the Order, I'd doubt that.

Not to mention that sex = fun. And fun is anathema to the Sisters. Remember: "The purpose of life is to suffer."

AlexHolker wrote:

Psienesis wrote:"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

That, in my opinion, is nonsense. The Sisters specifically stopped calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, remember?

I suppose that "cleaving unto" means like daughter to father, not lover to mate.

Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

Melissia wrote:Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas? Are there other sort of convents or nunneries for those that aren't Schola Progenium cadets? I only ask because the Enforcer omnibus made mention of conflict between a noble family and the ecclessiarchy on a particular world because a noble-born daughter had joined a convent. I wasn't sure whether they meant the Adepta Sororitas (as every other reference seemed to suggest) or another order of all-female nuns.

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent.

Which itself is something that is extremely unlikely to happen for extended periods of time.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent.

Which itself is something that is extremely unlikely to happen for extended periods of time.

Authority? I haven't seen anything suggest that it's extremely unlikely.

Melissia wrote:Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

Ohhh, that again. Thanks for clarifying.

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

The situation depicted there is very much at odds with the studio material.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan."

This line from the Codex doesn't really fit well to what I understand is a rather jovial Veteran Superior who hangs around with "buddies" from other Imperial organizations, consumes alcohol and plays games of chance for fun. In fact, this is the exact opposite of what we are told about the Sisterhood being "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime" and whose members firmly believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer".

As for sports in the Schola, this was never put into question. What was regarded as questionable was that these sports as depicted in this individual outsourced novel contradict another aspect of studio material, where the Codex tells us that "each habitat maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies" - because "only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain". So forgive me if I do not place too much trust in this one author's personal interpretation of the Sororitas but will continue to stick to what the studio books tell me.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas?

This again depends on which source you're looking at. GW Codex firmly says yes, no exceptions, but FFG's RPG and various novels such as the one you named offer alternate origins. As Andy Hoare said, the various authors are not obliged to adhere to any particular consistent representation of the setting.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

The situation depicted there is very much at odds with the studio material.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan."

This line from the Codex doesn't really fit well to what I understand is a rather jovial Veteran Superior who hangs around with "buddies" from other Imperial organizations, consumes alcohol and plays games of chance for fun. In fact, this is the exact opposite of what we are told about the Sisterhood being "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime" and whose members firmly believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer".

I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

As for sports in the Schola, this was never put into question. What was regarded as questionable was that these sports as depicted in this individual outsourced novel contradict another aspect of studio material, where the Codex tells us that "each habitat maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies" - because "only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain". So forgive me if I do not place too much trust in this one author's personal interpretation of the Sororitas but will continue to stick to what the studio books tell me.

Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas?

This again depends on which source you're looking at. GW Codex firmly says yes, no exceptions, but FFG's RPG and various novels such as the one you named offer alternate origins. As Andy Hoare said, the various authors are not obliged to adhere to any particular consistent representation of the setting.

Thanks.