Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

Well, would you describe her behavior as "strict and puritan" as the Codex maintains is dogma for Schola teachers?

Also, what is the reason for her absence from a convent? And would prolonged leave not require to have an especially devout and strict Sister assume this position? Especially this position? And then it's a Veteran Superior, who has already proven herself to her Canoness?

Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up. At least if he actually intended to have his books be consistent with the studio vision. As mentioned before, this is not necessary, and if you like his idea of the Sisters more than what GW established, you are of course free to prefer it to the Codex material. I'm simply saying this is an "either or" situation, and these two sources cannot both be right.

By the way, I also find Cain as a character quite unlikely. Commissars are schola-bred as well, and do you honestly believe someone like him would have made it through those hard years of training to be sent to such a position? Especially considering that he could have at any time opted to simply become a clerk, away from all the dangerous fighting which I am led to believe he dislikes? After all, the vast majority of Schola pupils ends up as Administratum scribes, and only the best of the best, the most valorous, faithful and skilled, are allowed to join such elite Imperial Adepta like the Commissariat. In my opinion, the author of this book also had no clue the Schola trains civilians and made it appear as if Cain reluctantly became a Commissar because he had no other option.
Feel free to enlighten me, though, if this is one point where I am doing the author injustice!

Hazardous Harry wrote:Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Well, it specifically says "each habitat". The strict gender separation has a historical reason (to be found in the corruption and abuse during Vandire's reign) - so to have an individual Schola straying from such doctrine is a little like saying there might be elements of the Guard/Navy who simply do not care about the enforced division between their forces.

Cain is not that unlikely. I mean he was forced into a position, and he showed aptitude for war (plus I take it that he is overly critical of himself). I'm in fact more skeptical to Gaunt as Cain despite him labeling himself as a coward actually is a very good commissar. Gaunt on the other hand is an utter failure as a commissar, but a very good leader. Cain could avoid his risks as a commissar by mentioning the word execution to any general that wanted to send him into action.

Also I'm of the interpretation that the Scholas vary, which is shown as I'm happy to consider rugby, football, icehockey, boxing and such religious ceremonies.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

Well, would you describe her behavior as "strict and puritan" as the Codex maintains is dogma for Schola teachers?

Also, what is the reason for her absence from a convent? And would prolonged leave not require to have an especially devout and strict Sister assume this position? Especially this position? And then it's a Veteran Superior, who has already proven herself to her Canoness?

So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way, maybe giving this position away is a convenient method of weaning out some of the more unruly sisters (by the Sororitas standard), rather than a position of trust or honour. It's mentioned that she isn't exactly young anymore, perhaps there's a reason why she's never been given a loftier position.

Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up. At least if he actually intended to have his books be consistent with the studio vision. As mentioned before, this is not necessary, and if you like his idea of the Sisters more than what GW established, you are of course free to prefer it to the Codex material. I'm simply saying this is an "either or" situation, and these two sources cannot both be right.

I don't think it's either or. You'd be mistaken to assume that every individual is going to adhere to the ideal image of what a Battle Sister is meant to be. In an organisation with tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of individuals, there's every chance that a couple of them are going to be every bit as jaded as anyone else, getting into their current position through fluke alone and desperately trying to keep up the act.
I'm saying that the Sister Superior here is the exception to the rule, and even in an organisation as pious as the Adepta Sororitas there are going to be exceptions.

By the way, I also find Cain as a character quite unlikely. Commissars are schola-bred as well, and do you honestly believe someone like him would have made it through those hard years of training to be sent to such a position? Especially considering that he could have at any time opted to simply become a clerk, away from all the dangerous fighting which I am led to believe he dislikes? After all, the vast majority of Schola pupils ends up as Administratum scribes, and only the best of the best, the most valorous, faithful and skilled, are allowed to join such elite Imperial Adepta like the Commissariat. In my opinion, the author of this book also had no clue the Schola trains civilians and made it appear as if Cain reluctantly became a Commissar because he had no other option.
Feel free to enlighten me, though, if this is one point where I am doing the author injustice!

He had no other option that appealed to him. Being a scribe is hardly a life of carefree writing and mucking about (especially if you've read the Dark Heresy points on it). Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Well, it specifically says "each habitat". The strict gender separation has a historical reason (to be found in the corruption and abuse during Vandire's reign) - so to have an individual Schola straying from such doctrine is a little like saying there might be elements of the Guard/Navy who simply do not care about the enforced division between their forces.

You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to. Now if the Schola's were training boys to join Convents you might be on something. And it's not like they've said the two genders are asking each other out for the Progenium Prom Night, it's competition between the two designed to increase the effectiveness of both.

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way, maybe giving this position away is a convenient method of weaning out some of the more unruly sisters (by the Sororitas standard), rather than a position of trust or honour. It's mentioned that she isn't exactly young anymore, perhaps there's a reason why she's never been given a loftier position.

I like that character just fine, but I don't think your logic stands up to scruitiny. If she really was being weaned out, she would not be put in charge of teaching a new generation of Sisters. That's a sure-fire way of making sure you get more Sisters like her.

And that stupid, Slaanesh-worshipping, "the purpose of life is to suffer" story can go die in a fire.

I might suggest that what's being argued here might reflect the difference between the ideal vs the reality on the ground in 40k.

After all, it's impossible to mathematically reconcile the number of sisters and their training system between the codex and anything else at this point.

@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

BaronIveagh wrote:@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

You mean from Daemonifuge? I mentally classify that comic in the same section as Ian Watson's old novels: it might be an interesting read for its own sake, but it's not 40k.

The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

I think the end of this sentence is missing - but I'm gonna jump for it anyways. The Sisters' regime is pretty extreme - they are raised for the utmost devotion to their dogma from birth and spend more than a decade in a fascist training camp where they have their childhood minds indoctrinated with propaganda, until they are shipped off to a religious convent where they are indoctrinated even more. They literally don't know anything else other than extremes. For them, the world is black and white, and people are either good or bad. It's why other Imperials are having such a hard time dealing with them and why they are as feared as they are adored.

To have this singular Sister in this singular book jump out of line, and not even be just a little more open-minded like Miriya in Swallow's novels but actually throw half their dogmas out of the window - and to have this "rebellious Sister" being in a position where she trains the next generation of Sororitas - no, this I can't accept. If you like it, fine, but for me it stands in stark contrast to everything I have read elsewhere. Even including other licensed material.

If we're going by studio fluff, a "Sister" like this would find herself arco-flagellaged or, at best, thrown into a Repentia squad. The character tarnishes everything the Orders stand for. She is "too normal", which isn't as much a flaw of the character - but a flaw of the author who created her. An author who, in my opinion, either lacks in background knowledge of the setting or whose interpretation of it deliberately deviates even stronger than the one of Goto does.

As for this supposed "exception from the rule" - aside from me questioning the necessity of any exceptions being this different, that still doesn't explain why she would be allowed to keep this post when such atypical behavior would normally be reported and acted upon with swift and brutal repression.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Flawed logic. Commissars don't get to pick the regiment they are attached to and are amongst the Imperium's most fanatical "troops" for a reason. This is about as logical as a tribal warrior applying for the Space Marines because a particular Chapter isn't very warlike and it'd be more cozy than his clan.

Hazardous Harry wrote:You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to.

I was referring to the military separation of the two organisations, meaning that the Navy isn't allowed to have its own armies or that the Guard isn't allowed to have its own starships.

And I still don't see rugby games as a "religious ceremony".

BaronIveagh wrote:After all, it's impossible to mathematically reconcile the number of sisters and their training system between the codex and anything else at this point.

I still don't see the problem with it, provided you don't allow outsourced products from random authors to override studio material. Feel free to present your mathematic formula, though.

AlexHolker wrote:The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering.

It's part of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, and since the very first edition of Rogue Trader back in 1987, the Sisters have been presented in this way. Flagellantism is part of their style, for obvious reasons (real world historical connections and symbol of extreme fanatism). And as Confessor Ganinimus is quoted in various Codices: "Prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body".

Or: "In suffering, we are one with our God-Emperor."

This reasoning - with the Emperor's ascendance to the Golden Throne being played up as an obvious allusion to the crucified Jesus ("He died for your sins!!" etc.) - worked for various religious people in the middle ages, why shouldn't it work for the Sisters? Of course I imagine there are varying degrees as to which it would be implemented and practiced, and I doubt it would be regularly taken to such extremes as it happened with the historical movement (as this would ultimately end up distracting the Sisters from their greater tasks and stands in contrast to their firmly regulated lifestyle), yet the basic concept would surely be part of the Sisters' routine.

A few thoughts:

Cain is a skilled manipulator - he did not "ask" for his posting to an artillery regiment - I think he used the standard methods known to many officers throughout the centuries, he networked, used friends and family bribed etc those who could get him what he wanted.

Again there is a serious misinterpretation of the character at work - He is very good at his job - he gets results, helps forge excellent fighting formations - there is a reason he is a Hero of the Empire - he earned it. Unlike Flashman he is absolutely not a coward - even if he claims otherwise in his memoirs.

Whilst I understand (but don't agree with) the flack the books get for the arguably dubious portrayal of the one Sisters character - this ignores all the other completely accurate to cannon depictions of all the other Sisters in the books including their piousness, skills in battle and the respect that the rest of the Imperium feels for them.

Mr Morden wrote:Cain is a skilled manipulator - he did not "ask" for his posting to an artillery regiment - I think he used the standard methods known to many officers throughout the centuries, he networked, used friends and family bribed etc those who could get him what he wanted.

Networking, friends, and family - for a Schola orphan? Eh ...

I'm not sure this is how this kind of education works, not to mention that I doubt that a Schola would leave much time/room for this or allow any sort of communication to the outside that would be required for this networking. I mean, we are talking about a little child who is being indoctrinated daily for years on end, being told how glorious duty and sacrifice are, and how nothing can ever beat the Imperium. On top of this, the progena spend every free minute they have training for war or studying for the paths they are considered for. I simply find it difficult to accept that an innocent and malleable kid who I assume should be just as deluded as any victim of a Nazi school has the intelligence to realize the brutal truth (and without any information on what's going on beyond the Schola walls!), and the spirit and the will to attempt "beating the system" when he is surrounded by so much fanatism and propaganda.

Mr Morden wrote:Unlike Flashman he is absolutely not a coward - even if he claims otherwise in his memoirs.

I'll take your word on it - in this case I would have misjudged him. For I really do not see a place for cowards in the ranks of the Commissars. I still think he's too much of an "ordinary human" for this job, but not as terrible as I had initially thought.

What Cain used was blackmail. Someone he regularly played cards with owed him a great deal of money. So the Departemento-official assigned him to the Artillery-regiment. But I suspect you will react even harsher to this Lynata, I mean commissars are supposed to crack down at gambling, not be experts. Then again look at Gaunt, he met up drunk on duty once.

As for the fanaticism, everyone takes to it at different levels, the most fanatical of course gets to be priests and Sororitas, then Arbitrators and Commissars I suspect. Though skill will also play into things.

AlexHolker wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

You mean from Daemonifuge? I mentally classify that comic in the same section as Ian Watson's old novels: it might be an interesting read for its own sake, but it's not 40k.

The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Which shows an ignorance of St Jeanne d'Arc, who, by her own admission, preferred her banner to her sword and convincing enemies to yield peacefully rather then make war upon them. Sadly, the woman they were supposedly modeled (and who's symbols they positively drip with) on would not only not have met their standards, but probably would be burned as a heretic. (Hmm...) While she believed that her actions were ordained by God, she was not a raging fanatic out to convert by the sword. (My own ancestor, Jean d'Orléans, who was over all commander of French forces at Orléans, felt that her strategies were too reckless [and her repeated wounding and general disregard for her own safety and that of her men suggests he was not too far off the mark], but came around to her point of view that bold and aggressive strategies could be effective after she proved her thinking sound by raising a siege that had stymied him for months).

Surprisingly, Mother Teresa would probably have cut it as a Hospitalar, other then for her tolerance of other faiths.


As far as Daemonifuge being canon or not, GW told FFG to go ahead and allowed them to make reference to it in Radical's Handbook. So, I'd say, unlike Watson's early works, it's still in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:I'm not sure this is how this kind of education works, not to mention that I doubt that a Schola would leave much time/room for this or allow any sort of communication to the outside that would be required for this networking. I mean, we are talking about a little child who is being indoctrinated daily for years on end, being told how glorious duty and sacrifice are, and how nothing can ever beat the Imperium. On top of this, the progena spend every free minute they have training for war or studying for the paths they are considered for. I simply find it difficult to accept that an innocent and malleable kid who I assume should be just as deluded as any victim of a Nazi school has the intelligence to realize the brutal truth (and without any information on what's going on beyond the Schola walls!), and the spirit and the will to attempt "beating the system" when he is surrounded by so much fanatism and propaganda.

The problem with that is, as the Nazis, and the United States before them, found out is that setting up a school to brainwash children does not work. Even if surrounded by armed guards and refusing their parents access to them (like the US did), it fails in short order the moment the doors open and they graduate. Further, the more restrictive the environment, the less able to deal with reality they are on graduating, usually self destructing in a spectacular fashion (and yes, even the ones that go right to the military or the church).

Lynata wrote:I'll take your word on it - in this case I would have misjudged him. For I really do not see a place for cowards in the ranks of the Commissars. I still think he's too much of an "ordinary human" for this job, but not as terrible as I had initially thought.

Ironically, you just about quoted another Commissar on meeting Cain in the most recent book, who's surprised that he's actually a human being rather than the myth they told them about in the schola. Cain narrates that if they had been cowards, as she suggests at one point, then they would not have three times as many ork kills as anyone else, they were just fighting smarter and using tactics rather then human wave assaults and head on charges, which were grinding her regiment to hamburger faster than the Imperium could recruit men (this should say something as this is going on ON that regiment's recruiting world). As Cain observes in another book, fanatical commissars tend to die heroically to enemy fire, even when the enemy is mysteriously far away...


Much the way this problem is occasionally dealt with in reality.

re the networking, friends and influence as children / young adults - the English private school system and its derivates have worked this way for a long time. I think some Schola would operate in exactly the same way?

Cain does not seek out danger but also does not run and hide - he has fought Chaos Space Marines in hand to hand combat as well as Daemons, Genestealers, Tryanids and Ork Warboses and won. Whilst he does not froth at the mouth as many contemporaries - he is an both an effective commissar in helping to produce an effective fighting force/s for the Imperium. Unusually his charges respect him - and in truth he is not unique - other BL Commissars have gone beyond the sterotype - not just Gaunt.

For all his vaunted cowardice he have on many occasions risked his life for others, and later rationalises it as without any alternative or protecting his rep etc. He enjoys the finer things in life and this gets him into bother - also whilst a consummate womaniser - his "conquests" as often prove to have their own agenda which is not always to his benefit.

Well they are said to be orphans, but then again Gaunt hardly qualifies as an orphan (he was raised by an aunt and the family-chef, plus his mother died in childbirth).

My personal take there Morden is that noble families could bribe or somehow get the kids into the local Schola, of course with orphaning-rituals and such as Schola Progeniums have classes in planetary ruling, but there are awfully little fluff about them and I tend to lean at this webpage http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/98sohn.pdf for my rationalizations about the Scholas, and it might not be kosher.

As for the rules, well at some places you get executed for smoking lho, so gambling might be a thing less heavily cracked down at for commissars like Cain and Gaunt.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Which shows an ignorance of St Jeanne d'Arc, who, by her own admission, preferred her banner to her sword and convincing enemies to yield peacefully rather then make war upon them. Sadly, the woman they were supposedly modeled (and who's symbols they positively drip with) on would not only not have met their standards, but probably would be burned as a heretic. (Hmm...) While she believed that her actions were ordained by God, she was not a raging fanatic out to convert by the sword. (My own ancestor, Jean d'Orléans, who was over all commander of French forces at Orléans, felt that her strategies were too reckless [and her repeated wounding and general disregard for her own safety and that of her men suggests he was not too far off the mark], but came around to her point of view that bold and aggressive strategies could be effective after she proved her thinking sound by raising a siege that had stymied him for months).

I was not making the argument you seem to think I was. St Jeanne d'Arc was motivated by her religion to try to achieve great things - how she went about it is beside my point.

Surprisingly, Mother Teresa would probably have cut it as a Hospitalar, other then for her tolerance of other faiths.

Mother Teresa would probably be executed for wasting the lives of too many of the Emperor's soldiers.

Mother Theresa, the legend, is radically different from Mother Theresa, the reality, which you can find for yourself by reading her biography "Be My Light". To avoid getting into a religious debate, I'm going to leave it at that.

It's no question that no one alive today has what it takes to "make it" in any of the organizations in the Imperium of Man. Most of us wouldn't make it on an agri-world (farming is hard work, yo), most of us wouldn't make it in the Guard (even those of us who are or used to be soldiers), and absolutely none of us have what it takes to be Space Marines or Sisters of Battle. We do not live in a world where thoughts of progress are brutally repressed, where there is no "due process" of law, and the concept of having "rights" is a laughable fantasy. These are people who put up with, and even thrive in, situations that are well beyond anything we can conceive of, so it's not quite accurate to say "OMG! It can't work that way! No one would put up with that!".

Now, while I'm sure there have been/are Sisters who "stray from the path" and succumb to certain temptations, like, say, drinking, gambling, possibly even (somehow) a romantic liaison (sometimes I wonder if the Sisters even know how it works)... these transgressions aren't going to last long. Either the sinner in question gets overwhelmed with the "Imperial Guilt" and runs off to Confession (a specific job in the Ecclessiarchy) or is caught by another Sister or one of her Superiors. In either event, severe punishment is soon to follow, based on whatever Canoness is in charge there. Some are more creative than others, but none of them are exactly "lenient".

As far as long-term romantic flings? Well, I view the adage I quoted earlier, "Cleave only unto the Emperor" as both a ward against further Vandire-like shenanigans and a recognition of the past that anyone pretending to speak for the Emperor probably isn't. For those who flirt with the Sisters (fools they may be) I imagine they get the imperious glare and are asked "Are you the God-Emperor of Mankind?" when the inevitable answer of "no" comes, they get blown off with probably something like "Come back when you are".

Incidentally, the phrase "to cleave unto" or "to cleave to" is only sexual in its application. It's a Biblical reference to the ceremony of marriage, where the partners swear sexual fidelity to one another. I'm 100% certain this is where GW took the phrase and why they applied it to the Sisterhood. I don't think their religious influences for this faction are all that subtle or deep, GW isn't known for making the fans really search for the meaning to its various symbols and references.

"[...] Also, it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly humans at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand, and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?" [...]

Ironically, the Sisters of Battle are somewhat more tempered than the Clergy ranks. Whilst there are undoubtedly lingering issues of trust and occasional conflict (such as Canoness Dissentia's attack on the Angels Vermillion in the wake of the Argent Shroud's mandate of policing other Imperial forces), on a whole, both organizations also harbor a certain degree of respect for each other. From the same Codex as the above quote:

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."

Civil at best, sounds like they don't have much love for the emperors sons. Probably because the Astartes both loyal and traitor remember that the Emperor was powerfull psyker who hated orginised religion. Ironicly their alot like the Word Bearers in wanting to worship the Emperor are most likely seen as usefull idiots the High Lords of Terra.

Beaviz81 wrote:What Cain used was blackmail. Someone he regularly played cards with owed him a great deal of money.

See, I don't even think progena get to have money.

BaronIveagh wrote:The problem with that is, as the Nazis, and the United States before them, found out is that setting up a school to brainwash children does not work. Even if surrounded by armed guards and refusing their parents access to them (like the US did), it fails in short order the moment the doors open and they graduate.

That may be true if the "graduates" are thrown back into an ordinary society - which is not the case for Schola progena, especially not those who end up as novices in the Adepta Sororitas.

And it wasn't true for the Nazis either. The effects of indoctrination can be countered, but this necessitates exposure to an environment that serves to undermine whatever propaganda you've been fed. Needless to say, the existence of such environments needs to be tolerated by the state, which doesn't strike me as likely both for the Third Reich as well as the Imperium of Man.

Beaviz81 wrote:My personal take there Morden is that noble families could bribe or somehow get the kids into the local Schola, of course with orphaning-rituals and such as Schola Progeniums have classes in planetary ruling, but there are awfully little fluff about them and I tend to lean at this webpage http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/98sohn.pdf for my rationalizations about the Scholas, and it might not be kosher.

The Schola is not an "elite university" of the Imperium, it's a system of indoctrination camps where orphans are turned into what amounts to slaves for the state. Under Vandire's reign, this even took the form of supplying rich nobles with young sex slaves and whole armies of docile miners - a history which I believe to be the cause of the current Scholae' extreme caution in terms of purity requirements for both their progena as well as teachers.

Also, apart from any questionable possibility for bribery, I would be unsure as to why any noble would be interested to voluntarily give up their heirs to the Schola. Although Schola training is commonly seen as a honourable and admirable thing, the nobles of the Imperium are usually way more pragmatic and less susceptible to this propaganda, instead being focused largely on their own well-being. Surrendering their children to the Schola would mean cutting them off from the line of succession - and if a noble really wants to remove one of his kids from the family and exile him to the military, why not just make him an officer in the next best PDF regiment that is slated for recruitment by the Imperial Guard?

That said, if you prefer this interpretation, roll with it. As Gav Thorpe said, "none of these interpretations is wrong". All I'm doing here is pointing out it doesn't swing well with the studio books, much like those novels.

Psienesis wrote:Incidentally, the phrase "to cleave unto" or "to cleave to" is only sexual in its application. It's a Biblical reference to the ceremony of marriage, where the partners swear sexual fidelity to one another. I'm 100% certain this is where GW took the phrase and why they applied it to the Sisterhood. I don't think their religious influences for this faction are all that subtle or deep, GW isn't known for making the fans really search for the meaning to its various symbols and references.

On a sidenote, I do believe that the "cleave only unto the Emperor" saying is actually from a BI/FFG book, not from a GW one.

The "come back when you are" line made me grin, tho.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Civil at best, sounds like they don't have much love for the emperors sons. Probably because the Astartes both loyal and traitor remember that the Emperor was powerfull psyker who hated orginised religion.

Yep - the "heretical" rejection of the faith unsurprisingly creates a lot of bad blood between these organisations. Aside from the Mechanicus, the Marines are the one and only people in the Imperium given carte blanche to get away with their "blasphemy", and even the AdMech does believe in the Emperor being a god - just in their own special way. And so the Adeptus Astartes stand apart from the Imperium they have vowed to protect, not just in hierarchy but also in spirit. A last symbolic remnant of the Imperium as envisioned by the Emperor HImself, one might say, yet over the millennia many Chapters have adopted some rather crude and abhorrent traditions on their own.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

I think the end of this sentence is missing - but I'm gonna jump for it anyways. The Sisters' regime is pretty extreme - they are raised for the utmost devotion to their dogma from birth and spend more than a decade in a fascist training camp where they have their childhood minds indoctrinated with propaganda, until they are shipped off to a religious convent where they are indoctrinated even more. They literally don't know anything else other than extremes. For them, the world is black and white, and people are either good or bad. It's why other Imperials are having such a hard time dealing with them and why they are as feared as they are adored.

To have this singular Sister in this singular book jump out of line, and not even be just a little more open-minded like Miriya in Swallow's novels but actually throw half their dogmas out of the window - and to have this "rebellious Sister" being in a position where she trains the next generation of Sororitas - no, this I can't accept. If you like it, fine, but for me it stands in stark contrast to everything I have read elsewhere. Even including other licensed material.

If we're going by studio fluff, a "Sister" like this would find herself arco-flagellaged or, at best, thrown into a Repentia squad. The character tarnishes everything the Orders stand for. She is "too normal", which isn't as much a flaw of the character - but a flaw of the author who created her. An author who, in my opinion, either lacks in background knowledge of the setting or whose interpretation of it deliberately deviates even stronger than the one of Goto does.

As for this supposed "exception from the rule" - aside from me questioning the necessity of any exceptions being this different, that still doesn't explain why she would be allowed to keep this post when such atypical behavior would normally be reported and acted upon with swift and brutal repression.

But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Flawed logic. Commissars don't get to pick the regiment they are attached to and are amongst the Imperium's most fanatical "troops" for a reason. This is about as logical as a tribal warrior applying for the Space Marines because a particular Chapter isn't very warlike and it'd be more cozy than his clan.

Others have already answered this well enough. Basically, there are plenty of Commissars that don't actually see front line combat often, or even occasionally, even though they are expected to have no compuction to personally lead the most dangerous charges etc. Cain basically wanted to get the easiest posting he could, and for a Schola Progenium cadet few things are easier than a Commissar in an Artillery regiment.

Hazardous Harry wrote:You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to.

I was referring to the military separation of the two organisations, meaning that the Navy isn't allowed to have its own armies or that the Guard isn't allowed to have its own starships.

I know, and I was pointing out how you can't really compare the affiliation of the genders in a Schola Progenium to the mandate that disallows the Navy and Guard to have influence over the one or the other. After all, even though the Sisters tenents themselves disapprove of it, there is nothing in the Decree Passive that says Sisters can't affiliate with the Imperial Guard or Astartes.

And I still don't see rugby games as a "religious ceremony".

Ehhh...


If there's any deviation between different scholas (and there will be), this is probably the one most subject to change.

Lynata wrote:
And it wasn't true for the Nazis either. The effects of indoctrination can be countered, but this necessitates exposure to an environment that serves to undermine whatever propaganda you've been fed. Needless to say, the existence of such environments needs to be tolerated by the state, which doesn't strike me as likely both for the Third Reich as well as the Imperium of Man.

I think you're over inflating how successful the 3rd Reich was at it. By their own admission they achieved the desired result one time in five. Any of the students exposed to real world combat situations are going to start unraveling, because most of the schola grads believe what is in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. If you've ever read that one (the Damocles Gulf edition in particular), their brainwashing will last up until first contact with the enemy. After all, orks in general are not physically weak, and Tau plasmaguns penetrate a flack jacket quite easily.

Your idea of what constitutes an environment that undermines propaganda is pretty narrow. Sisters, for example, are stationed away from Ophelia and Terra for long periods, sometimes permanently, in locations where oversight is not always possible. To the degree that entire orders have been lost to the last and no one knows what happened. And, I'll grant, the state does not tolerate invasions, but they also don't have much say in it. (In the case of the Imperium or Nazi Germany). The Order Dialogus for example, would nearly invariably have to deal with ideas and environments that undermine propaganda, by the nature of what they do. The Famulous have no oversight whatsoever, if fluff is to be believed.

And, frankly, is some of the characters in any IG novel can serve, the average Infantryman could, and probably do a better job of it. The level of incompetence in the Guard is truly staggering and it's a wonder the Imperium ever wins any wars at all.


And, let me throw a real monkey wrench in all of this now: As of the new WD SoB Codex - "During this time numerous other Orders Militant - the Orders Minoris - were founded across the Imperium with their own traditions, doctrines, livery, and titles."

So, this whole argument just went out the window, because as of this codex, many orders militant are not even FOUNDED on Ophelia or Terra, and are explicitly stated to have differing Rules than the Orders Majoris.

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Neither can Matt Ward, but it didn't prevent him from writing the new Codex. And since Ward seems to have slipped in some of what Mitchell has been writing... Hmm...

Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris, what Mitchell is writing could very well be the case, as it does not conflict with current codex canon.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Disagree - The Sisters in Duty Calls are straight out of the Codexes in every single way.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cain basically wanted to get the easiest posting he could, and for a Schola Progenium cadet few things are easier than a Commissar in an Artillery regiment.

And based on everything he was told by the teachers, Cain knew this ... how?

Hazardous Harry wrote:I know, and I was pointing out how you can't really compare the affiliation of the genders in a Schola Progenium to the mandate that disallows the Navy and Guard to have influence over the one or the other.

Sure I can. Rules are rules, regardless of who sets them up.

From everything I've read in studio sources, I also do not think there is much difference in the various Scholas' teachings, much like it goes for the Sororitas Orders. What you are suggesting here is quite simply in contradiction to the Codex line that "the lifestyle of the teachers is strict and puritan", and nothing you could say will change this simple fact, so I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.

BaronIveagh wrote:I think you're over inflating how successful the 3rd Reich was at it. By their own admission they achieved the desired result one time in five.

With the Hitler Youth maybe, but not with Napola cadets - and the Napola are a perfect comparison for the Scholae. Note that any brainwashing about an enemy's supposed weakness which may get dissolved upon contact with the enemy is also something entirely different than the belief that humans are still inherently superior and that the Emperor is watching you. If it were different, the majority of the Imperial Guard would suddenly turn into unbelievers because the Emperor apparently does not protect, which is (and I hope you agree) obviously not the case - so indoctrination maintains its hold upon people.

BaronIveagh wrote:Your idea of what constitutes an environment that undermines propaganda is pretty narrow. Sisters, for example, are stationed away from Ophelia and Terra for long periods, sometimes permanently, in locations where oversight is not always possible.

They are always surrounded by other Sisters, which means constant oversight.

BaronIveagh wrote:And, let me throw a real monkey wrench in all of this now: As of the new WD SoB Codex - "During this time numerous other Orders Militant - the Orders Minoris - were founded across the Imperium with their own traditions, doctrines, livery, and titles."
So, this whole argument just went out the window, because as of this codex, many orders militant are not even FOUNDED on Ophelia or Terra, and are explicitly stated to have differing Rules than the Orders Majoris.

However, this bit of fluff was already around in 3E - and the WD Liber Sororitas where it appeared first also simultaneously makes it clear that although minor differences in rituals and colours exist between the Orders, they still follow the same rules due to tracing back their heritage to a singular origin and, because of this, are much more uniform than the Guard or the Marines. It is this trait that enables them to easily transfer from one Order to another, after all.

The 5E Codex you are referring to also mentions "fanatical devotion and unwavering purity", though, and that the Sisters divide their time solely between "battle, training and worship", so ... yeah, what will it be for you? Novel or Codex?

BaronIveagh wrote:Neither can Matt Ward, but it didn't prevent him from writing the new Codex. And since Ward seems to have slipped in some of what Mitchell has been writing... Hmm...
Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris, what Mitchell is writing could very well be the case, as it does not conflict with current codex canon.

You are mis-reading the text. Rules are not synonymous with traditions and livery. Just because one Order wears red robes instead of black ones and another holds morning mass in the garden of their abbey instead of the chapel does not mean they still do not follow the same rules as laid out in the Rule of Sororitas. This is also not something that Ward came up with, it's taken directly from the White Dwarf Liber Sororitas written by Andy Hoare and has been around since the Sisters' 3E Codex.

Lynata wrote:No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

This Schola does seem to be pretty small in terms of size. And Cain was the only outside person who clued on to what was going on.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

Of course it doesn't, because Sandy Mitchell isn't telling us about the larger picture, or the more typical inhabitants of the 40k universe. He's telling us about the exceptions, like a Commissar who wants nothing more than an easy life. If it had been claimed that Cain was pretty average for your Schola teacher, or that sisters away from the convent generally slept around then I would be in complete agreement with you. Usually I am, as you tend to know what you're talking about. But in this case I think your position that exceptions like this simply can't exist in the 40k universe is flawed.

And based on everything he was told by the teachers, Cain knew this ... how?

You don't have to be a genius to figure an Artillery regiment is going to be far behind enemy lines. And Cain is very adept at reading between the lines, he be able to get the gist of what is what even through the most dogmatic of teachings.

Sure I can. Rules are rules, regardless of who sets them up.

I guess you could, but it would be a pretty weak comparison. Mixing of different genders wasn't exactly a major cause of the Horus Heresy.

From everything I've read in studio sources, I also do not think there is much difference in the various Scholas' teachings, much like it goes for the Sororitas Orders. What you are suggesting here is quite simply in contradiction to the Codex line that "the lifestyle of the teachers is strict and puritan", and nothing you could say will change this simple fact, so I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.

I'd say there is a difference between contradicting something and pointing out an exception. But, as you've said, each to their own.

EDIT: Sorry, I don't mean to come across as trying to get the last word in here.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

As I keep saying - its one character in his books not his depction of the sisters that deivates from the norm - the sisters in Duty Calls are everything that one would expect - I have in the past quoted direct references that show this.

Fanatical, unwavering, devoted, skilled in combat etc etc

Elite insitutions that favour strict discipline and heavy indoctrination are not going to have a 100% success rate as you are dealing with human beings - look at history - look at fiction. Its also not clear at what age Cain entered the Schola - I can't see any reference to a maximum age in the codexes either. So its possible he had life experience before he entered - especially as it seems he grew up in the underhive where I suspect children are often grow up very quickly. The Schola produced an highly effective COmmissar, skilled in signle combat, a true servant of the Emperor who just happens to also see the virtues in preserving his charges and his own life - where did it fail? He may not forth at the mouth but is patently a beliver in the God Emperor. True - Sandy Mitchell chooses to have some elements of hope, humour, love and lust but then so do the posterchilds for the BL's Dan Abnet and Aaron Dembski Bowden - who I also enjoy.

I have read pretty most things published for 40K and own most of it and I really don't find it in conflict with the central tennents b ut each to their own I guess

Lynata wrote:Note that any brainwashing about an enemy's supposed weakness which may get dissolved upon contact with the enemy is also something entirely different than the belief that humans are still inherently superior and that the Emperor is watching you. If it were different, the majority of the Imperial Guard would suddenly turn into unbelievers because the Emperor apparently does not protect, which is (and I hope you agree) obviously not the case - so indoctrination maintains its hold upon people.

Sadly, this is more due to the fact that 40k characters do not behave like actual humans then anything else. It's also one of the reasons that the novels and codices differ, since the novels have to have characters who are relatable to real people.

Oh, BTW: while Napola cadets did have a higher success rate, the official numbers the Nazis had was still only 50% (which given how the Nazis occasionally shuffled paper, it was likely closer to 30% overall, a some Adolf Hitler schools had 0% of their students qualify at the end for further education, or roughly the same as hitlerjugen). Granted that's pretty high, but still no where near successful enough to make it worth while.

Lynata wrote:They are always surrounded by other Sisters, which means constant oversight.

Source please? I can point to three where it's not true.

Lynata wrote:The 5E Codex you are referring to also mentions "fanatical devotion and unwavering purity", though, and that the Sisters divide their time solely between "battle, training and worship", so ... yeah, what will it be for you? Novel or Codex?

No reason it can't be both. Again, as I said before, the Codex talks ideals. Ideally, yes. But, as we see in many books, the ideal and reality are two different things.

Lynata wrote:You are mis-reading the text. Rules are not synonymous with traditions and livery. Just because one Order wears red robes instead of black ones and another holds morning mass in the garden of their abbey instead of the chapel does not mean they still do not follow the same rules as laid out in the Rule of Sororitas.

You apparently do not understand what a Rule is in the context of a religious military organization. A 'Rule' is the traditions, oaths, doctrines, livery, and titles of an Order. (as well as how they take oaths, the seating arraignments at table and mass, and when to stand, when to bow and when to sit.)

So, when you see a big thing that says 'The Rule of the Sororitas' this is a listing of traditions and guidelines (most likely of the founding orders). A Rule is not absolute, either, with enforcement (and punishment for infringing) entirely up to the ranking person present. By tradition, a monastery or Commandery might waive or even ignore certain aspects of the Rule.

For example, the Rule of the Knights Templar called for a White cloak and for them to prohibit other knights and soldiers from wearing said in their presence. By tradition, this was ignored entirely in Southern Spain and North Africa, because many knightly orders there wore white in an attempt to reduce the desert's heat. It also prohibited them standing during prayer, as it was thought disrespectful to those who could not, for whatever reason, stand for the duration. This was commonly waived for practical purposes. Some Rules prohibited women, but individual Commanderies would allow them to take up arms as Knights anyway, particularly those with uncomfortable proximity to the enemy.

BaronIveagh wrote:Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris

She wasn't a member of an order minoris.

Furthermore, you need to be more specific when you say "orders minoris", and your assertion of huge deviations has no basis in fact, only presumption on your part based off of, apparently, a peculiar need to have fantasies about sleeping with nuns as far as I can tell.

BaronIveagh wrote:No reason it can't be both.

Except when one contradicts the other.

And it does.

Which one do you choose? Choosing both is not an option. The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. It's like if you tried to base the view of chaos heretics off of the Sisters of Battle codex (which has them slaughtered easily by the millions). Or based your view on Orks off of Space Marine lore while ignoring the Ork codex. Or based your view of IG lore off of that stupid internet meme which has them be killed to a man whenever they try to do anything.

Or if you based Space Marine lore off of Soulstorm and the canon ending where they loss and took horrible casualties.

Some Rules prohibited women, but individual Commanderies would allow them to take up arms as Knights anyway, particularly those with uncomfortable proximity to the enemy.

I've heard a lot of Dan Brown-esque internet fluff about there being actual female Knights Templar, but I've never found any factual basis for it. Source, please?

Melissia wrote: The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. .

Except that is patently nonsense - The main character does not like them (although he grudgingly respects their abilities).

Lets look at actual text of the books - rather than what people have heard about them, do any of these extracts stray from the generally accepted view of the Sororitas?

.......but one local institution seemed to be taken into the Arbitrators trust. Down by the podium... was a small knot of figures in bright silver power armour....
'Battle Sisters', {Colonel} Krsteen said, her voice taking on a tinge of awe.

"Disturbing how?" the woman in the gaudy armour put in again, the unspoken 'get on with it' resonating around the room.... Canoness Eglantine. Keesh nodded, acknowledging her presence with a weariness that hinted heavily that they'd met before and seldom saw eye to eye, which I suppose was hardly surprising : The law dealt in hard truths, the Ecclesiarchy in matters of faith........
"Merely that a true servant of the Emperor should feel no disquiet, however dire the news, the woman said. 'He protects' She bowed her head, and the rest of her entourage did the same. Before they could turn the whole thing into a prayer meeting, Keesh got to the point, which was probably what Eglantine had intended all along.

Despites Cains tone - their effectiveness in combat is in no doubt:

At least the troublesome Sisters were easy enough to find. I just had to look for the densest concentration of tryanids on the plateau, and sure enough.....there they were, merrily slaughtering their way through a dense thicket of onrushing hormaguants, the bounding horrors scything claws making little impression on the women's gleaming power armour......An impressive number of chitinous corpses lay scattered about the place too. Gaunts by the score, which came as no surprise, but several of the karger warrior forms.....

.........our treads crushed tryanid corpses pretty much everywhere we turned and I found myself grudgingly impressed by the evident fighting prowess of the Battle Sisters......

not that they are overly impressed when he tells them to fall back to a more defensible position before they get cut off:

Thin lips compressed in disapproval. "We're servants of His Blessed Majesty" she snapped ' and not subject to the authority of your office. Go and shoot a few malingering Guardsmen like you're supposed to, and leave us to our holy task.'

describing the convent:

Other larger squares clearly had a more utilitarian purpose, Sisters in power armour drilling or practising combat techniques with a precision Sergeant Lermie (Regimental drill instructor) would have nodded grudging approval of.

'Commissar'. The woman returned the gesture curtly, her ash blonde fringe bobbing as she did so and I noticed that the fleur de lys tatoo on her right cheek was bisected by a thin line of white scar tissue. This as much as her manner, marked her out as a veteran warrior, and someone not to be trifled with.....

what had been an elegant formal garden, now crushed to mud beneath a heaving sea of chitin, mandible and doggedly resisting Sororitas, falling back slowly as that irresistible tidal wave of malign bio forms broke against the shore of bolter fire and expertly wielded sarissae.

In nomine Imperiator, Bonica yelled, brandishing her chainsword and leaping forward to meet the {genestealer} patriarch head-on. To my astonishment she sent it reeling back wounded.........

Melissia wrote:She wasn't a member of an order minoris.

Furthermore, you need to be more specific when you say "orders minoris", and your assertion of huge deviations has no basis in fact, only presumption on your part based off of, apparently, a peculiar need to have fantasies about sleeping with nuns as far as I can tell.

No, that's just nasty. My reason for championing this view is that it's more realistic and in line with the material that they were based off of. She was, however, the highest ranking Sororitas present, and therefor, if Sororitas follow the pattern of the real world monastic knightly orders they were based off of, the Rule would be up to her to interpret. (as it was with the Knights Templar permanently stationed overseas)

Melissia wrote:
Except when one contradicts the other.

And it does.

Which one do you choose? Choosing both is not an option. The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. It's like if you tried to base the view of chaos heretics off of the Sisters of Battle codex (which has them slaughtered easily by the millions). Or based your view on Orks off of Space Marine lore while ignoring the Ork codex. Or based your view of IG lore off of that stupid internet meme which has them be killed to a man whenever they try to do anything.

Or if you based Space Marine lore off of Soulstorm and the canon ending where they loss and took horrible casualties.

Enough people seem to base Tau lore off the non-canon ending. That said, choosing both is very much an option, because of how a monastic order's Rule works. For some reason, people posting seem to think it an absolute, when in reality it's a set of guidelines. I'll use a real world comparison: the Templars were, ideally under their Rule, fanatical killing machines who would sooner slit their own throats than speak to a Muslim. The reality of it was they made treaties with them all the time and actually brokered some of the East - West trade arrangements of the period.

Psienesis wrote:I've heard a lot of Dan Brown-esque internet fluff about there being actual female Knights Templar, but I've never found any factual basis for it. Source, please?

I'm not sure if the Templars did, however I was thinking specifically of the Order of Saint John and The Order of Santiago. (Studia Monastica 1987 [vol. 29]). The Templar's did not, as far as I know, but their successor, the Teutonic Order, did, so German commandry's may have before the Templars in Germany took up the name of the Teutonic Order. I have heard that there were some before the Rule was imposed (the Order actually existing for a few years before the Rule was codified), but have not found a source for that rumor.

The Rule does make reference to a Scandal of some type in the East that the order was caught up in and makes mention of women, so it's possible that this is the root of the rumor, or, possibly, they had allowed it, causing a scandal and the knights in question to be disavowed.