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Sethorly wrote:

tuiman wrote:Problem is, I think 6th is very troops orientated when it comes to holding objectives, so I think I am going to have to resort to using coteaz and a few groups of henchman for cheap objective sitters

This is exactly the reason I've suggested that Coteaz and small crusader units form a good core. It used to be that you could design an army to Table your opponent and just pick up the objectives along the way. Now those days are gone if you look at the Missions. There will often be 4 or more objectives and they will be spread out all over the board. Trouble with using Terminators or Strike squads for holding these objectives is that a sizeable proportion of your army (in points value) will be thinly spread across the board rather than focussed on the weakest point of the opponent's army (or focussed on killing that part of the opponent's army they're best at killing). Thus you need durable objective holding Troops whose cost is as small as possible to allow for the majority of your points to be focussed on killing. The answer I've come up with is Coteaz with units of 3 Crusaders.

And then given that you have Coteaz, it made sense to me to take advantage of the awesome Prescience to buff the weakness of henchmen, their poor BS of 3, to a rerollable BS3 which has a better chance of landing a shot than BS4. Now we can use all those lovely cheapish Heavy Weapons and stormbolters without expecting poor results. If you don't want a shooty henchman unit though, then Coteaz/Crusaders is still a good core imho to take on the new missions. And as I suggested above, an example of the benefit of this low costing core is being able to take 20 Paladins with transports at 1500 pts, but this is just an example.

Here's the question then. Can anyone think of a better way of securing those objectives than the crusaders? Am I just barking up the wrong tree?


Re Allies - I think a competitive list at the moment would have to take IG for the Hydras wouldn't it?

I was kind of thinking taking allies, a couple of guard blob squads, now I know its not cheap for a full blob, but you could be able to cover a few objectives wioth one squad, give them heavy weapons and just dig in, snap fire anything that dare charge you, for a backfield objective though, I think you might be right on the crusaders, although I am also planning on a basalisk squadron to sit back, combine this with a henchman squad to baby sit them could be quite effective.

Im not to keen on hydras as they are to situational, a squad of vendettas would be far better imho

Also frees the heavy slot for russ or basalisks which are also usefull

Sethorly wrote:

tuiman wrote:Problem is, I think 6th is very troops orientated when it comes to holding objectives, so I think I am going to have to resort to using coteaz and a few groups of henchman for cheap objective sitters

This is exactly the reason I've suggested that Coteaz and small crusader units form a good core.

Why units of 3 Crusaders? Are you planning on hiding them out of LOS? 3 of them is 45 points, which is the same cost as 9 bolter warrior acolytes.

I've tried to expand the first page allies builds a bit.

so far though as unholy as an alliance gets, but Necrons + GK seem pretty viable. GK + IG and GK + SW are proving quite good all around.

I'm thinking GK + BA also for a jet pack assault build with GK shooty base may do ok as well, plus you can field like 4 storm ravens with that thing though it's almost silly expensive.

Overall I think the keys to success in 6th are broadly -

1) Long range shooting and getting first turn - getting first blood has been vital to several victories for me when all else has been a wash

2) shooty is in, especially twin linked shooty, flamers are also in. Low AP guns are totally in.

3) bodies - you need alot of them. GK are just so expensive that you don't get enough of them and with rhinos no longer really benefiting from fortitude and dying easily, you'll eventually need quite a few more bodies on the field. Everyone's more killy, you just need wounds to survive or alot of nicer dice rolls. Henchmen fill this nicely as they are cheap

4) counter flier ability - either twin link spam, fliers of your own, or turret emplacements. Even the lovely hydra can get killed from fliers just cause fliers get to alpha strike it. Spamming psycannons in foot squads just isn't as useful in test games as I've found. In theory they should do decent but I'm finding it to be unpractical to shoot everything at a flier especially as something of mine invariably dies to the flier showing up and there are often other targets I must engage or get shot/assaulted next turn. GK currently lack missle launchers in pretty much any form other than as a dread's arm replacement so we really will end up needing allies to accomplish this or twin link psychic powers if you don't have any rhinos with TL HB's left alive. (which is pretty much all the time after turn 3 now)

5) If you build assault - the assault rolls really hurt you more than help. GK really lack fleet which is numerically really really useful. Just the DK and interceptors have them, your normal troops even purifiers will be hard pressed to win many assaults with bigger squads because of overwatch, getting shot at the turn before for exiting your ride, and don't have the AP2 they used to have. Not enough bodies syndrome again. 5 man squad in a rhino trying to charge a 10man tac squad is going to actually barely break even now since you might just end up seeing 2 guys maybe 3 get into it with the 10-8 guys left alive after some traded shots.


Balancing the top 5 above I think will be key to victory. How to do that with just GK themselves has me pretty stumped. With allies and henchmen, at least you can make up for some of those deficiencies

Still trying to figure out a decent build for DKs... Heavy Psycannon is pretty decent against groups, but heavy Incin might be better since it is actually quite consistent.

DK is just so slow without a teleporter, but damn is that gak expensive. Maybe I'll try a 3 DK build with my Diablo figure.

Paladin builds aren't great for objectives, but I still like them best.

Joe Mama wrote:Why units of 3 Crusaders? Are you planning on hiding them out of LOS? 3 of them is 45 points, which is the same cost as 9 bolter warrior acolytes.

My reasoning is that their 3++ saves will make them considerably more durable than 9 bolter acolytes, or anything else for that points cost. One can't just say that a crusader will fail 1/3rd of the time so is worth 3 acolytes, as a passed save on a crusader that would otherwise kill an acolyte would mean no casualties.

@daedalus, the consensus is teleporter+incinerator. The psycannon and hammer are too expensive for what they do on an already eye-wateringly-costed unit. Sword is pretty good I think if it allows S10 rerolls, but I would feel a bit dirty doing that unless GW allows it in a FAQ. I've tried DK several times without teleporter and it works well as a counterassault unit protecting a gunline but it is just too expensive to be used like this, especially since something like a small unit of DCA could do a better job for much less.

Sethorly wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Why units of 3 Crusaders? Are you planning on hiding them out of LOS? 3 of them is 45 points, which is the same cost as 9 bolter warrior acolytes.

My reasoning is that their 3++ saves will make them considerably more durable than 9 bolter acolytes, or anything else for that points cost. One can't just say that a crusader will fail 1/3rd of the time so is worth 3 acolytes, as a passed save on a crusader that would otherwise kill an acolyte would mean no casualties.

@daedalus, the consensus is teleporter+incinerator. The psycannon and hammer are too expensive for what they do on an already eye-wateringly-costed unit. Sword is pretty good I think if it allows S10 rerolls, but I would feel a bit dirty doing that unless GW allows it in a FAQ. I've tried DK several times without teleporter and it works well as a counterassault unit protecting a gunline but it is just too expensive to be used like this, especially since something like a small unit of DCA could do a better job for much less.

That is usually how I run them as it is now; although the heavy psycannon doesn't seem quite as terrible as it was before considering it does full damage to armor if it touches them. Of course, running a teleporter, psycannon and incinerator costs 275 points, lol.

Stormraven is basically mandatory now, which is kind of sad for build diversity.

I'll say the Heavy Psycannon is a nice gun for the DK. It annhilates horde armies and isn't too bad against vehicles if you happen to clip them.

The Incinerator is probably better because of accuracy, and it gives you something to overwatch with.

Sethorly wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Why units of 3 Crusaders? Are you planning on hiding them out of LOS? 3 of them is 45 points, which is the same cost as 9 bolter warrior acolytes.

My reasoning is that their 3++ saves will make them considerably more durable than 9 bolter acolytes, or anything else for that points cost. One can't just say that a crusader will fail 1/3rd of the time so is worth 3 acolytes, as a passed save on a crusader that would otherwise kill an acolyte would mean no casualties..

But if the acolytes are in cover they have a 5++ save against most things. They'll die from 2/3rd of shots fired and Crusaders will die from 1/3 shots fired. Acolytes die twice as often but are a third of the cost...

So its actually a wash.

Grey Templar wrote:So its actually a wash.

Dying twice as often but a third the cost doesn't sound like a wash to me. Also, they can shoot their bolters if need be, or go to ground to get a better cover save.

Remember they have to run to the objectives first, then hold it against stuff that negates cover (flamers, markerlights) and assault. As there is only 3 of them, it will also be easier for them to hide out of line of sight.

On missions:

One has no objectives.
One has one objective.
One has two objectives.
Two have 3-5 objectives (in one of these, heavy support, including vehicles, may claim).
One has 6 objectives (but fast attack, including vehicles, can claim).

The mean number of objectives per mission is (0+1+2+4+4+6)/6 = 17/6 = c.3 objectives per mission. And in two objective missions your FA or HS will be scoring anyway.

So if you include an HQ with Grand Strategy and have some units that may be granted to, having only 2-3 troop choices is hardly the end of the world, especially if those choices are tough to eradicate units like paladins or terminators.

I really don't see there's any need to panic and start regarding henchmen as 'must haves', or even as especially useful (they may indeed be useful for some lists, but are not actually necessarily a 'good thing').

Okay, in half the missions you're looking at 4 objectives as a mean number. And you need to be prepared for 6. But if you're taking 2 FA and 2 HS in your list, you immediately increase your scoring units in 2 of those 3 missions by 2. And you'll be able to place 2-3 objectives in said missions, so you can make sure they're well placed foryour army to control.

It may be that the optimum core for Gk is 2 x 10 terminators, coming in at c.450-500 points each. That allowing 4 troop choices for lost of objectives and 2 for ones where durability is required (the 50% of games with 0-2 objectives)

Sethorly wrote:Remember they have to run to the objectives first, then hold it against stuff that negates cover (flamers, markerlights) and assault. As there is only 3 of them, it will also be easier for them to hide out of line of sight.

In most of missions, you choose where to place, at least, one marker. And often you will place two. Also, you should have, at least, 2 cover places in your side, either a forest, a building, a ruin, whatever.

Your henchmen should be to the ground, that means they will have, at least, a 5+ in the worst scenario, being this a forest. Add a technomarine with a conversion beam per henchmen unit (you're making them shooty, 3 servitors w/ plasma/melta cannons, 2 jokaero and 7 bolters or 3 plasma rifles and 4 bolters), and you'll have a 4+ cover save. And that's in the worst scenario, and taking with the inquisitor that you've in that unit the hit repeating magic, not the 4+ invulnerable that you may roll.

In the best scenario, with the techmarine, scatterfield objective, in a ruin, you'll have 2+ cover from it and 3+ in cover area, 3+ in a forest too. It's pretty sick.

@blood and slaughter

I acknowledge everything you say.

However, it's in the half of missions which have numerous objectives that cheap durable Troops give a big advantage.

Why? Because your scoring Fast Attack, Heavy, and your expensive "tough to eradicate" palies or termies can be where they need to be to do their job - killing the enemy - rather than spread out on the table in unoptimum positions to help each other, getting picked off by the more focussed application of force from your opponent.

This is the tactical advantage to the Crusader idea (but it's one of many tactics - I'm sure there are other viable ones).

Sethorly wrote:@blood and slaughter

I acknowledge everything you say.

However, it's in the half of missions which have numerous objectives that cheap durable Troops give a big advantage.

Why? Because your scoring Fast Attack, Heavy, and your expensive "tough to eradicate" palies or termies can be where they need to be to do their job - killing the enemy - rather than spread out on the table in optimum positions to help each other, getting picked off by the more focussed application of force from your opponent.

This is the tactical advantage to the Crusader idea (but it's one of many tactics - I'm sure there are other viable ones).

Agree with this 100%

And whats the chance in the missions where heavy and fast are scoring, that they will still be on the table at the end, normally things that go in these slots (dreadknights, ravens etc) are ther first thing to get taken out by your opponent.

How about:

Take an HQ, 1 troop choice (i'd say purifiers or termies) possibly combine with stormraven/land raider = could equal you about 500 points.

Combine in equally magically 1k army list of SW, or IG, or Necrons for some strange reason (you know who you are)

Mix it all together, shake well, and then you have a shooty army of goodness with a deadly spear of GK's

Of course I hate seeing the GK's take the backseat in this, but I don't think allies are going to fill the gap if they aren't the majority of the army.

Sethorly wrote:However, it's in the half of missions which have numerous objectives that cheap durable Troops give a big advantage.

Those Crusaders aren't cheap and durable, they are the same price and less durable as the warrior acolytes I mentioned.

Slap those warrior acolytes near an objective in cover in your deployment zone (9 with bolters or 10 with laspistols). They'll outlast the Crusaders, who will die pretty quickly to a round or two of bolter fire.

Heres a thought actually, hows old Thawn faring? A character who isnt afraid to take challenges. The usual GKTT goodness of the I6 2++, but even if he falls down youv got a 50% chance of him getting back up to carry on being a pain in the other guys backside

doc1234 wrote:Heres a thought actually, hows old Thawn faring? A character who isnt afraid to take challenges. The usual GKTT goodness of the I6 2++, but even if he falls down youv got a 50% chance of him getting back up to carry on being a pain in the other guys backside

I was really looking at this too. He now makes the squad fearless, has mastery level 2 which is good psychic defense and can take on challenges without fear. If he does die you have another scoring unit that your enemy has to focus fire on just to take down one guy(if he gets up). Thawn seems like a decent buy now I think!

Wait, Thawn's special abilities now get transferred to his squad? That would make him amazing in a 10-man terminator squad with a banner. NFW activation and HH on top of fearless on top of what he had before? Yes please.

Throw in a meatgrinder character that Thawn can soak up challenges instead of and you have yourself a mighty fine little party.

But what has changed, why does he get to do this now rather than before?

Fearless is now applied to any squad that contains a character with the USR

You know what, I wanna try out justicare Thawn now. I'll try something with him this weekend and see how it works out. The one time I took him in a list it was a fun wacky list with inquisitor kazarmov shooting at him with orbital bombardment. lol

I shall have to re-evaluate the guy. maybe have him in with a librarian and keep the librarian challenge proof.

Thawn seems like a must to me. A character that, when you kill it, count as another troop, and can revive? Aw yes.

I suddenly want to make a justicar thawn + st. celestine build lolol. step aside necrons!

I think, with the coming of 6ed, were going to have to reevaluate all the weirder units in our dex. Karamovs easier to hit now, though he seems like he would do OKish in challenges.

Iv heard alot of bemoaning about Mordrak being nerfed because of I1 in challenges+ a lucky hit killing him and removing his squad.

But now consider, one of his uses before was putting him with a teleporter homer libby to make GKTS in the next turn more accurate. Granted, it wont be a full DS list, but you can have TDA support on the opponents line from the get go. As for challenges, id say he isnt that bad. Yes hes I1, but with the focus on speed its doubtful the other guys going to have something unwieldy, so you should be able to rely on his 2+. and swing back with a S10 blow, most likely IDing the challenger. As for lucky shots killing him, well that was always a threat with templates and units that can pick targets anyway. He just requires some clever placement in the unit. Start him with a few more ghosts if you feel the need to, but keep him behind them. They will screen him from attacks, and if they go down you have a fair chance of replacing them again anyway.

Yes mordrak MAY die, but any HQ may die. Yes you lose his unit with him, but remember he isnt a straight IC like normal, the units the trade off you get. Without it, as HQs go i doubt he would be all too great for his points. Try not focusing on keeping him alive through it all, and instead use him as his weapon (so to speak). Unleash him in the thick of the fray, distract your enemies fire and unleash as much hell as you can.

Hes not an objective scoring unit, he doesnt bring lovely bonuses when you dump him with a squad. Personally, mordraks purpose really is just to be let loose and make his points back in kills, not to be hidden behind some basic troops and wrapped in bubble wrap.

Also, as iv said further up, try experimenting with inquisitor builds. MEQ general consensus seems to be "more plasma". And what does the plasma syphon do again? granted its only on one unit, but its better than no defense for its points. The other wargear options too, iv always had relatively good success with a PA OM with daemonblade. Yes the powers are random, but you get two. And if no ones realised, a roll of 5 negates armour saves completely. Not to be relied on yes, but still, roll a double or a 5, plus its not like alot of the other powers are to be sniffed at. Or even the OX, option of 2 poisoned weapons that always wound on a 2+, and if i recall right those MCs have gotten a little more useful for those that have them. Hell even in a challenge, OX+grenades+venomblade seems pretty ok to me.

The other id like to mention is Stern, havnt seen much mention of him yet. He has a 2+/3++in close combat, or a 4++ rest of the time, so again hes a good source of saves, and with how infantry is gonna get crowded this edition, his zone of banishment could get a little more useful, thinning out the herd, especially if that herds giving the challenge rerolls (which he can give himself anyway. Yes he gives the other guy reroll dice, but this ed is looking reroll filled anyway, whats 1 or 2 more).

I would mention champions, but i believe theyv already been mentioned. With the changes to close combat hitting, their digital weapons are no longer useless (actually with 6ed changes, alot of our more slowed options are making sense), plus hes a good source of brain mines. Yes he sucks vs units, but thats not his purpose. Hes a dedicated Challenge character, think about it. His sword stances, stat lines and suicide ability. Its what he was put into the codex to do, challange a 200-300 point HQ and guarantee one or both of them will die, and all for 100 points. Admitted, its a valuable HQ slot, but i use low point HQ inquisitor anyway, and am sure im not the only one. (personally he should have been either an Elite, or like the BT champion in how he treats HQ slots).

Anyway, apologies for the ranted long post, hope at least one or two points give people a few thoughts and ideas

Good point on Stern, I haven't really experimented with him but in many ways, he's an ultimate challenger to something like the eldar + dark eldar fortune shadow vect bomb. (if you can get past the 4+ deny the witch and stupid runes of warding and make them fail a 50% strength test...) If it did work, it could potentially wreck alot of invul saves

Our way to deal with long-range units like longfangs, and else, are jokaeros and stormravens (till AA missiles). Ultimately, I've found that the technomarine conversion beam it's pretty sick, measuring, and hitting with str 10 FP 1 small area. I killed an entire unit of GK terminators (5) who deepstrike behind my lines, in one shot. Razorbacks with laser cannon are not that good, but you can make them good by hiding them behind an aegis.

DakotaBlue wrote:Our way to deal with long-range units like longfangs, and else, are jokaeros and stormravens (till AA missiles). Ultimately, I've found that the technomarine conversion beam it's pretty sick, measuring, and hitting with str 10 FP 1 small area. I killed an entire unit of GK terminators (5) who deepstrike behind my lines, in one shot. Razorbacks with laser cannon are not that good, but you can make them good by hiding them behind an aegis.

Longfangs can be dealt with by Psyfleman Dreads.

wuestenfux wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Our way to deal with long-range units like longfangs, and else, are jokaeros and stormravens (till AA missiles). Ultimately, I've found that the technomarine conversion beam it's pretty sick, measuring, and hitting with str 10 FP 1 small area. I killed an entire unit of GK terminators (5) who deepstrike behind my lines, in one shot. Razorbacks with laser cannon are not that good, but you can make them good by hiding them behind an aegis.

Longfangs can be dealt with by Psyfleman Dreads.

Longfangs are solvable in alot of ways. Psykers, razorbacks, dreads, techmarine/ox conversion beamers, assassins, stormraven, shunted dreadknight, shunted interceptors. Not like were hard up for choice.

Choices, yes, but you need to solve this problem quickly. At best in one round of shooting early in the game.