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Jihadin wrote:What I'm thinking to Baron
Say a M249 cost about 3K
M240B about 6600
SINGAR radio (don't ever lose one. Your kids still be paying for it till they're retirement)

Wait you have to pay if you lose equipment, in a war zone? What kind of is that?

An individual M249. Military buys in bulk. Also includes tripod, T&E and spare barrel

Frazzled wrote:
Guys with the best air power won in WWII , Korea, Falklands, Desert Storm I Desert mambo II this time we're serious, Afghanistan (ok we bashed them in anyway, I don't think anyone wins in Afghanistan including the Afghanees), and of course the geatest war of our time, the invasion of Grenada.

Yea, Vietnam, not zo much. Of course if we had applied nukes like a certain big nozed president threatened to do....

Umm...


WWII was actually lost by the side with the 'best' air-power to the side with the 'most' air power. We used the 'Grant' theory of warfare there.
Korea - Was never 'won' and we got our clocks cleaned in the air.
Falklands: While I grant that England did have a better equipped air force, I would suggest considering that the Argentines did a remarkable job for being behind, including badly crippling the Royal Navy, despite their casualties. While the RN pilots did not lose a man, they almost did not have a carrier to come home to.
Afghanistan: No one has won that war since Alexander the Great started it more then 3k years ago.
Desert Etc 1-? I agree, as in the open desert it's about air-power and mobility. And that fact that Iraq never really had an airforce worth the name, which we mostly blew up on the tarmac about an hour into the war.

Wait you have to pay if you lose equipment, in a war zone? What kind of is that?

You lose an accountable item through stupidity then yes you do. I even initate the paperwork myself. You lose an item to say an IED..actually ITEMS since an IED would probaly involve a MRAP/MATV/STRYKER or what have you then I will initate paperwork to have those items replaced. AN individaul lose a weapon I will make sure to take his/her pay, rank, and time not including his/her paying for the weapon itself.

Now if you ty to pull a fast one and say you lost your NVG's in an IED incident then I found out later you have it....I will take rank, pay, and time for not having integerty

WWII was actually lost by the side with the 'best' air-power to the side with the 'most' air power. We used the 'Grant' theory of warfare there.
***What nonsense are you talking about? US airpower creamed the Japanese. Outside of the ME262 (which was not materially superior to the meteor) US and UK fighters were equal or superior to German fighters. Our Medium bombers were equal or better, and we had heavy bombers.

Korea - Was never 'won' and we got our clocks cleaned in the air.
***Unless you’re North Korean or Chinese you’re so wrong its not funny. Our kill rates were 7 to 1 up to 14 to 1 depending on when you’re talking.

Falklands: While I grant that England did have a better equipped air force, I would suggest considering that the Argentines did a remarkable job for being behind, including badly crippling the Royal Navy, despite their casualties. While the RN pilots did not lose a man, they almost did not have a carrier to come home to.
***Almost aint squat.
Afghanistan: No one has won that war since Alexander the Great started it more then 3k years ago.
We are in agreement.

Desert Etc 1-? I agree, as in the open desert it's about air-power and mobility. And that fact that Iraq never really had an airforce worth the name, which we mostly blew up on the tarmac about an hour into the war.
***proves my point.

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you have to pay if you lose equipment, in a war zone? What kind of is that?

I personally recommend not losing equipment in general. It's always a really bad when you have one of those 'oh, gak, where the feth is it?' moments.

Jihadin wrote:

Wait you have to pay if you lose equipment, in a war zone? What kind of is that?

You lose an accountable item through stupidity then yes you do. I even initate the paperwork myself. You lose an item to say an IED..actually ITEMS since an IED would probaly involve a MRAP/MATV/STRYKER or what have you then I will initate paperwork to have those items replaced. AN individaul lose a weapon I will make sure to take his/her pay, rank, and time not including his/her paying for the weapon itself.

Now if you ty to pull a fast one and say you lost your NVG's in an IED incident then I found out later you have it....I will take rank, pay, and time for not having integerty

Define lose. Do you mean like "where did it go?" or do you mean damaged etc.? I mean I break guns all the time. I'm like the gremlin of guns. I've even broken an East German well maintained AK 47, pretty much just by having it in my presence. I'm like a really lame Ctan...

Also define stupidity. Wait, take that pic of me down right now!

Frazzled wrote:WWII was actually lost by the side with the 'best' air-power to the side with the 'most' air power. We used the 'Grant' theory of warfare there.
***What nonsense are you talking about? US airpower creamed the Japanese. Outside of the ME262 (which was not materially superior to the meteor) US and UK fighters were equal or superior to German fighters. Our Medium bombers were equal or better, and we had heavy bombers.

Korea - Was never 'won' and we got our clocks cleaned in the air.
***Unless you’re North Korean or Chinese you’re so wrong its not funny. Our kill rates were 7 to 1 up to 14 to 1 depending on when you’re talking.

Falklands: While I grant that England did have a better equipped air force, I would suggest considering that the Argentines did a remarkable job for being behind, including badly crippling the Royal Navy, despite their casualties. While the RN pilots did not lose a man, they almost did not have a carrier to come home to.
***Almost aint squat.
Afghanistan: No one has won that war since Alexander the Great started it more then 3k years ago.
We are in agreement.

Desert Etc 1-? I agree, as in the open desert it's about air-power and mobility. And that fact that Iraq never really had an airforce worth the name, which we mostly blew up on the tarmac about an hour into the war.
***proves my point.

I have to agree with Frazzled here.

WW2 - Japanese and German fighters were slightly superior and their pilots were probably superior, but they were outnumbered massively. People forget that Russia had a huge Air Force (or w/e they call it).

Korea - IDK enough to say.

Desert Storm - A10 says hi.

Lose as in misplaced, walked away, disappeared, boogyman got it, or left behind. Individuals are responsible for equipment they are signed for. If for an example you lose say your sapi side plates for your body armor you best find them in 30 mins or I initate paperwork for a "Statement of Lost" form which you need to show Central Issue Facility at a Main FoB to replace the ones your missing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with Frazz to on WWII
Korea we had the NK pushed almost all the way to border of China before China got involved. We did get our clock clean at the beginning IE Task Force Smith...Pusan Peremiter...
Desert Storm you really can't hide a tank at day nor night. Also there were actual "lines"

Where on earth are you getting that German and Japanese fighters were superior?
Wildcats were better than zeros in surviavability, dive and climbing rates.
Hellcats/corsairs completely outclassed them and only later Oscars could get close.

Europa:
*Spitfire superior ME 109 inferior
*Spitfire higher marks and Mustangs were equal to Butcher Birds.

Medium bombers:
*Havocs/mitchells were every bit as good or better than comparable german medium bombers
*The British Mosquito is viewed by many as te best bomber of all sides.

heavy:
The Germans didn't have any.

Yes they had some ME 262s, but they didn't change the course of the war, and British jets were in production not far behind (Americans were slower).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:Lose as in misplaced, walked away, disappeared, boogyman got it, or left behind. Individuals are responsible for equipment they are signed for. If for an example you lose say your sapi side plates for your body armor you best find them in 30 mins or I initate paperwork for a "Statement of Lost" form which you need to show Central Issue Facility at a Main FoB to replace the ones your missing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with Frazz to on WWII
Korea we had the NK pushed almost all the way to border of China before China got involved. We did get our clock clean at the beginning IE Task Force Smith...Pusan Peremiter...
Desert Storm you really can't hide a tank at day nor night. Also there were actual "lines"

So not damaged. OK.

Frazzled wrote:Outside of the ME262 (which was not materially superior to the meteor) US and UK fighters were equal or superior to German fighters

wut
The Me262 was a whopping 300 kph faster than the Meteor (900 vs 600) and better armed. She just came too late to have any meaningful effect, and then Hitler got the grand idea of turning her into a long range bomber.

The Allies did have the better bombers, though.

As for the Pacific theatre, from what I've read it was rather circumstancial, with the Zero being overall faster and more maneuverable and having a longer range, whereas the Cats and Corsairs had more guns and were faster during combat maneuvering (though the Zero could pull a tighter loop).

German aircraft was fuel injected
German pilots already had more combat experience then their british counterpart
German Luftwaffe was geared towards supporting the german land army

Japanese aircraft were much lighter (no armor)
Japanese pilots already had more experience then their american counterpart
Japanese had way more aircraft's combat operational then the US

Above was early war

US outmass produced fighters then either country
US trained way more pilots then either country
US were able to rotate pilots from combat to downtime

Germany pilots were fly to you die hence they have the highest scoring aces in the world. Hell Erich Hartmann shot down 4 mustangs in one sortie

Japanese pilots were the same "fly till you die"

Late war above

Its just a few points

German aircraft was fuel injected
***British pilots were fuel injected...

German pilots already had more combat experience then their british counterpart
***Thats why the British pilots were fuel injected.

German Luftwaffe was geared towards supporting the german land army
***By about 3 in the afternoon the British pilots were so fuel injected they couldn't see the ground.





EDIT: You're right the meteors were substantially slower. Time for more liquid fueling!

Ok, DEEP breath....

Frazzled wrote:WWII was actually lost by the side with the 'best' air-power to the side with the 'most' air power. We used the 'Grant' theory of warfare there.
***What nonsense are you talking about? US airpower creamed the Japanese. Outside of the ME262 (which was not materially superior to the meteor) US and UK fighters were equal or superior to German fighters. Our Medium bombers were equal or better, and we had heavy bombers.

The average German pilot was better trained, more experienced, and had more kills than his US or British Equivalent. While, I grant, their medium bombers were lacking, their close air support (particularly on the Eastern Front) had superior experience and accuracy. Remember that medium and heavy bombers are largely strategic rather than tactical. The B-25 had a hard time hitting anything smaller than a freighter, despite variants being fitted as bunkerbusters.
If we want to talk about the ME262, there's a big difference between it and the Meteor. Edit: which has been gone over.

On Japan: in fact, for most of the war, we largely got creamed "by' the Japanese, due to our inferior carrier based aircraft until the f4. Our solution: flood them with more planes then they can counter. We built over 151 carriers and beat them to death.

Frazzled wrote:
Korea - Was never 'won' and we got our clocks cleaned in the air.
***Unless you’re North Korean or Chinese you’re so wrong its not funny. Our kill rates were 7 to 1 up to 14 to 1 depending on when you’re talking.

Officially: the US air force claims 10 to 1 their favor. However, recently declassified records from both the US and former USSR showed the numbers were closer to 3.4 to 1 in favor of the Soviet pilots.

Frazzled wrote:
***Almost aint squat.

...Don't look like squat to me...



With the exception of losses aboard the General Belgrano, Casualties on both sides were nearly equal. Further, as a peculiarity of that war, casualties figures almost double if you factor in post war suicides by veterans involved.

The average German pilot was better trained, more experienced, and had more kills than his US or British Equivalent.
***Mostly against the Soviets. I am not discussing them.
their close air support (particularly on the Eastern Front) had superior experience and accuracy.
***Better than our Thunderbolts and Typhoons? Please provide proof.

Remember that medium and heavy bombers are largely strategic rather than tactical.
***That’s kind of the point. With equivalent fights but better bombers, and more of all, which side won? We did.
On Japan: in fact, for most of the war, we largely got creamed "by' the Japanese, due to our inferior carrier based aircraft until the f4.
***The fighters that flew at Midway were predominantly F4s. That’s six months into the war.
Our solution: flood them with more planes then they can counter. We built over 151 carriers and beat them to death.
***Plus had better aircraft. But again, you support my point. The force with the superior air forces won.
Frazzled wrote:
Korea - Was never 'won' and we got our clocks cleaned in the air.
***Unless you’re North Korean or Chinese you’re so wrong its not funny. Our kill rates were 7 to 1 up to 14 to 1 depending on when you’re talking.

Officially: the US air force claims 10 to 1 their favor. However, recently declassified records from both the US and former USSR showed the numbers were closer to 3.4 to 1 in favor of the Soviet pilots.
***Reportedly there was something on the order of two Russian squadrons vs. everyone else. Again, we stopped them cold. In this case, literally.
Frazzled wrote:
***Almost aint squat.

...Don't look like squat to me...



***That’s not a carrier….

With the exception of losses aboard the General Belgrano, Casualties on both sides were nearly equal. Further, as a peculiarity of that war, casualties figures almost double if you factor in post war suicides by veterans involved.
***Who cares they still lost. Once again the superior air forces won.

I don't know how the thread got here but IIRC the Me262 and the Spitfire were good equals with both having advantages and disadvantages compared to the other...

purplefood wrote:I don't know how the thread got here but IIRC the Me262 and the Spitfire were good equals with both having advantages and disadvantages compared to the other...

Do you mean the ME 109?

I think you mean the MeBF109 and the Spitfire were roughly equals. Me262 was the top tier fighter, but was produced in such small numbers as to be largely irrelevant.

By the time the ME262 made its presence a threat the Lufftwaffe were pretty much shot 9 ways to Hell. Hitler wanted it as a fighter/bomber for the longest time that pretty much screwed the project. Time it went into pure fighter mode the logistic chain to support...well...basically anything at that point was seriously lacking. Example...horse drawn cart to the runway to conserve fuel.

As for the Eastern front the germans did not have fighter squadrons spread all out the entire front. The squadrons were assembled over a particualer front to assist in or defend a known point. IE Kursk till then they were station at "hot spots"

Japanese had the most aircraft carriers at the beginning of the war till we out produce them. Resources was a choke point for the japanese for ship production.

German fighter pilot has the most oppurtunity to shoot down an american fighter then the american fighter pilot has a chance to shoot down a german fighter

German Stuka was better then the Thunderbolt or Typhoon since the Stuka was designed specifically for its role. Rudel being an example. Still air superiority plays into ground support. US were new comers into ground support doctrine

Japanese fighter and pilot were totally screwed due to no armor in their fighter...also logistic too totally screwed the japanese throughout the pacific over time

As for the Korean war. The North Korean pilot was a new comer to air combat unlike their Soviet pilots who were experience pilots form WWII dealing with our experience pilots from WWII (those in leadership position on both sides)

Frazzled wrote:
***Better than our Thunderbolts and Typhoons? Please provide proof.

One stuka piilot, Hans Rudel achieved the following: over 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down.

Frazzled wrote:
***The fighters that flew at Midway were predominantly F4s. That’s six months into the war.

F4U, not F4F. Midway was partially decided by the failure of the Japanese to neutralize the US land based aircraft, which were, by nature, superior to what could be put on carrier. One on one, the zero could (and did) clean our clock, as nothing we had compared to it. Fortunately, we were able to simply bury them in material.


'More' is not 'better'. A swordsman worth 400 gold coins can be easily killed by 400 spearmen, costing one gold each.

The fighter aircraft at Midway were obsolete Buffaloes and again, the F4...

Frazzled wrote:The fighter aircraft at Midway were obsolete Buffaloes and again, the F4...

True, and in their capacity as fighters, they did miserably. Their major achievement was to help the torp squadrons draw the Japanese carrier fighter cover to close to sea level, giving the Dauntless DBs' an opening (which was actually more luck than planning). The Wildcat's actual performance as a fighter was questionable at best, though they did make a few kills, and they were quickly replaced with the Hellcat, which could at least outrun a Zeke in a straight line.

Comparatively, if not for the loss of the carriers, the air battle for Midway would have been a serious failure for the US. Japanese losses in the air were minimal, though not insignificant. The loss of the carriers and the aircraft losses that caused, however, turned it into a win, though barely. Midway was not the huge victory that many make it out to be, with both forces withdrawing following the fighting, Spruance possibly concerned that if the Japanese fleet would turn on him in the dark, Yamamoto's battleships would turn the situation from victory to defeat with the US carriers near useless at night.

by Ralph Brading.

AIRCRAFT OF THE AIR BATTLE OF MIDWAY
Version 2

The classification of the Battle of Midway as a great naval battle has naturally tended to place the historic focus onto the ships and the sailors, and so take a little away from the aircraft which participated on both sides, particularly from those based on the island ‘carrier’ which has given the battle its name.

As an air battle lasting just a few days Midway was unusual in the number and variety of aircraft involved. It involved a tragic ‘last hurrah’ for some types and their heroic crews and a shaky debut for other types, some of which went on to great success in their design roles. Others were switched to new uses in other war theatres, achieving success there.



AMERICAN AIRCRAFT

It was the first and only combat use by US forces of the Brewster F2A-3 ‘Buffalo’, flown off Midway by the Marine Corps pilots of VMF-221. Hopelessly outclassed by the Zeros, thirteen of the twenty operational F2A’s were shot down in the first Japanese attack. The Buffalo had a brief post-Midway role as a flight trainer.

The other obsolete American aircraft on Midway were the eleven Vought SB2U - 3 ‘Vindicators’ of Marine Corps VMSB-241. They left Midway together with the SBD-2 Dauntless bombers of the same unit but their low speed meant they arrived after the others. Three of the Vindicators were lost in this action, another one while returning from a late search flight and a further one in their last use in combat, the attack on the IJN heavy cruisers the next day,

The biggest single loss of obsolete American aircraft at Midway was sustained by the carrier borne Douglas TBD ‘Devastator’ torpedo bombers of VT-3, VT-6 and VT-8. Thirty five of the forty one Devastators which took part were destroyed. Like the Vindicator the TBD’s were not used in combat after Midway, being replaced by the Grumman Avenger.

Six Midway based brand new Grumman TBF Avengers of VT-8 took part in the first badly coordinated attacks on the Japanese Carrier Group. Five of the six were destroyed, the sixth being badly shot up but managing to return to the island. The Avenger never the less went on to be the Allies’ most successful torpedo bomber, ‘front line’ until VJ Day.

The four new Army Air Force B-26 Marauders were no more successful in their torpedo bomber role. They scored no hits, two of them being shot down and a third crash landing when it returned to Midway. Some Marauder equipped units remained operational in the South Pacific in both bomber and torpedo-bomber roles, but their main subsequent use and successes were in Europe and North Africa.

This was also the case with the Boeing B-17E Flying Fortresses. Although none of these were lost in direct combat during the Battle of Midway their high level attacks on the Invasion Force on 3 June and on the Carrier Group the following day produced no better results than similar ones made off Luzon and Australia some months earlier. B-17’s were progressively replaced in the Pacific theatre by B-24 Liberators, and much later by the B-29 Superfortress.

The star ship-destroying role at Midway was filled by the Douglas SBD ‘Dauntless’. Both mark 2 and mark 3 versions took part, the earlier as part of VMSB-241 on Midway, the later version flying from all three American carriers as scouts and dive-bombers and sinking or mortally wounding all four IJN carriers and a heavy cruiser.

Tremendously strong, a reliably stable platform in a dive, and in spite of its nickname nimble enough to successfully scrap with Japanese fighters on many occasions, including Midway, various versions of the "Barge" were flown by the US Navy, Marine Corps and Army Air Force and several Allied air forces, many still being service at the end of WW II.

The front line American fighter at Midway was the Grumman F4F ‘Wildcat’, with VMF-221 flying the mark 3 version from Midway and VF-3, 6 and 8 operating the mark 4 version from all three carriers. Both versions made kills at Midway, and although the F4F's were progressively replaced by F5F Hellcats on fleet carriers, later Wildcat versions including the GM built FM-2 served on escort carriers until the end of the war.

American reconnaissance patrols before and during the battle and rescue missions after were mainly carried out by Consolidated PBY-5 and 5A ‘’Catalina’s" flying from Midway. PBY’s made the first sightings of both the Invasion Force on 3 June and the Carrier group on 4 June. Less fortunately, a PBY was also the first American casualty, one being shot down on 3 June by seaplanes from an IJN seaplane tender in the Invasion Force.

Version of this remarkable aircraft remained in service until the end of WWII and beyond, serving not just as scout and utility aircraft but in combat roles such as bombing and torpedo attacks and in mine laying operations in the Pacific Ocean and China Sea.

Curtiss SOC-3 "Seagull" floatplanes carried by US cruisers in both TF 16 and !7 were launched on scouting flights on 5 and 6 June, and this sturdy biplane, capable of service on floats or with wheels, also remained in service at least until 1946. A lone example of another durable American biplane floatplane, a Grumman J2F-2 "Duck", was on the ground on Midway and together with a timber and metal decoy aircraft known as the "JFU" became the first American aircraft on Midway to be destroyed by Japanese bombs.

The last air action of the Battle of Midway was taken on the evening of 6 June, when four newly arrived USAAF aircraft took off for night raid on the nearest Japanese air base, Wake Island. The aircraft were the LB-30 version of the Consolidated B-24 "Liberator". They failed to find their target and the lead aircraft failed to return. The B-24 went on to success in every theatre, being built in greater numbers than any other US aircraft in WWII.



JAPANESE AIRCRAFT

Apart from the Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighter and possibly the B5N1 torpedo bomber, the other carrier based Japanese combat aircraft, like their American counterparts, were considered obsolescent and approaching replacement. The first was to prove a crucial ‘apart’, as almost all the early American losses were due to intercepts by the Zeros.

The most advanced aircraft of either side at Midway, the Mitsubishi A6M2 Model 21, variously known as the Reisen, 'Zeke' and Zero, was a lethal combination of agility and range flown by battle experienced pilots. The performance advantages were gained at the expense of lighter construction, lack of armor or fuel tank protection and less power than their American opponents.

The floatplane version of the Zero, the Nakajima A6M2-N 'Rufe', was also present at Midway, on board the seaplane carriers in the Invasion Force, but appear to have been intended for use from Midway after its capture, and were not used in the battle.

Versatile Nakajima B5N1 "Kate" aircraft were used both as level and torpedo bombers, but this very versatility was to cost the Japanese more dearly than the American use of individual types for each role, when time lost in change-overs and the unsecured ordinance left the Japanese carriers as floating bombs. Its replacement in the form of the NakajimaB6N ‘Jill’ was a long time coming, gradually replacing Kates between 1943 and 1944.

The Aichi D3A1 "Val" dive-bomber rode high on the tide of initial Japanese victories, and is said to have sunk more Allied warships than any other Axis aircraft, but Midway probably marked the peak of its career. Although versions of the Val were in production until 1945, from Midway on its low speed and poor armament made it increasingly vulnerable to improved Allied aircraft, tactics and numbers. It was then turned mainly to shore based use, and replaced on carriers by the improved mark 2 and 3 versions of the Yokosuka D4Y

One Yokosuka D4Y1 "Judy" was used at Midway as a reconnaissance aircraft, another having been damaged on the way. Designed as a dive bomber replacement for the Aichi D3A-1 Val, the Judy was at this time fitted with an unreliable engine and plagued with structural problems. Later re-engined and modified structurally it did successfully replace the Val as Japan’s front line dive-bomber.

Aircraft from two IJN carriers and three escorts of the Carrier Group took part in the 4 June reconnaissance. One obsolete Kawanishi E7K1 "Dave" floatplane was launched from the battleship Haruna and initially one Mitsubishi F1M "Pete" and one Aichi E13A "Jake" from the cruiser Tone and two Aichi E13A "Jake’s" from the cruiser Chikuma.

The Daves were withdrawn to training uses after Midway but the slightly younger and much tougher Petes were extensively used in a variety of roles for the rest of the Pacific war, while the Jake with its up to 15 hour endurance was used for scouting until the end.

Unlike some of the American aircraft types, all of the Japanese aircraft which appeared at Midway were still in some form of service at the end off the war, and many individual aircraft put in brief final appearances in Kamikaze squadrons.



20-20 HINDSIGHT

Japanese aircraft sustained ‘acceptable’ combat losses in the air. It was the total loss of the remaining aircraft and their experienced aircrews following the sinking of the four Japanese carriers, including those planes and crews being carried for landing on Midway, which represented the greatest blow to the Japanese Naval Air Service.

The use of these few slow, older aircraft to locate the American ships is hard to explain, particularly given the facts that the Japanese lacked radar and any firm intelligence reports on the location of the American carriers. In fact this could be seen to have been an even bigger mistake than those later ones of Admiral Nagumo, and the one which started the process of compounding errors which led to his defeat.

This was certainly the view of Mitsuo Fuchida, the Japanese pilot and author who was present at Midway, given in his 1955 book "Midway, the Battle That Doomed Japan"

It is made more puzzling by the fact that the IJN Midway search pattern was a re-run of that used a few months earlier in the attack on British bases and ships in and around Ceylon, which had come close to allowing some potentially dangerous situations there.

On the American side the apparently reckless use of aircraft and crews in a series of uncoordinated and increasingly desperate attacks without a single hit before 10.20 was not without achievement. The Japanese carrier formation and their defenses were split up and the continuing presence of land based aircraft played a big part in Nagumo’s decision to call for a second strike on Midway.

Perhaps most important of all, the various low level American attacks succeeded in drawing all the Japanese fighter cover down almost to sea level, leaving the way clear for the crushing Dauntless dive bomber runs which in less than five minutes fatally hit the three Japanese carriers and turned the battle towards the final American victory.



ALL AIRCRAFT WHICH TOOK ACTIVE PART

US NAVY- CARRIER BASED

Douglas SBD-3 Dauntless Dive Bomber
Douglas TBD-1 Devastator Torpedo Bomber
Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat Fighter



US NAVY - SHORE BASED ON MIDWAY

Consolidated PBY-5 and 5A Catalina Reconnaissance flying boat
Grumman TBF Avenger Torpedo bomber



US MARINE CORPS - SHORE BASED ON MIDWAY

Douglas SBD-2 Dauntless Dive Bomber
Vought SB2U-3 Vindicator Dive bomber
Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat Fighter
Brewster F2A-3 Buffalo Fighter



US ARMY AIR CORPS - BASED ON MIDWAY

Martin B-26 Marauder Torpedo bomber
Boeing B-17 E Flying Fortress Heavy bomber



JAPANESE NAVY -CARRIER BASED

Aichi D3A-1 ‘Val’ Dive bomber
Nakajima B5N1 ‘Kate’ Torpedo bomber
Mitsubishi A6M2 ‘Zero’ Fighter
Yokosuka D4Y1-C ‘Judy’ High speed reconnaissance monoplane



JAPANESE NAVY- WARSHIP BASED

Kawanishi E7K1 ‘Dave’ Reconnaissance biplane
Mitsubishi F1M ‘Pete’ Reconnaissance biplane
Aichi E13A ‘Jake’ Reconnaissance monoplane



US NAVY - WARSHIP BASED

Curtiss SOC-3 ‘Seagull" Reconnaissance Biplane



JAPANESE NAVY - ON SEAPLANE TENDERS IN INVASION GROUP FLEET

Mitsubishi A6M2 -N ‘Rufe’ Seaplane fighter
Mitsubishi F1M ’Pete’ Seaplane scout



WAITING IN THE WINGS

JAPANESE NAVY - SHORE BASED, TO FLY IN AFTER MIDWAY SECURED

Mitsubishi G4M1 ‘Betty" Torpedo bomber - from Wake Island
Kawanishi H8K1 ‘Emily’ Reconnaissance flying boat - from Jaluit Island

Jihadin, please attrib that. It's by Ralph Brading.

sebster wrote:
People instead are arguing that even if a woman could meet the requirements they don't get in, because of hygiene and also because a sniper might shoot one in the leg, at which point the chivalrous nature of all the men folk means they'd rush madly to her rescue and all get killed, or something.

There's no such thing as chivalry in the military. That's why all the female officers I know are absolutely stunned/appalled when I show it towards my wife and themselves and all the male officers ask what the hell I'm doing.

Except the few from the South, of course. They still raise men proper there.

Platuan4th wrote:They still raise men proper there.

That's why they're so fun to brawl with. Texans. Set em on fire, dislocate their shoulders, they keep on coming. Like Terminators that know how to do a rebel yell.

Georgians are tough, but stupid. I think it takes a few tics for them to realize they're hit. Texans know they're hit, and like it.

Give me a bar or a battlefield full of Texans any day.

Fág a' Bealach!

BaronIveagh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:They still raise men proper there.

That's why they're so fun to brawl with. Texans. Set em on fire, dislocate their shoulders, they keep on coming. Like Terminators that know how to do a rebel yell.

Georgians are tough, but stupid. I think it takes a few tics for them to realize they're hit. Texans know they're hit, and like it.

Give me a bar or a battlefield full of Texans any day.

Fág a' Bealach!

You have garnered the respect of a Texan, son of a Texan who was run over by his wife...twice!

If you were a sniper...who would you shoot first if both targets were in the fire lane...a male or a female

Male on the assumption he would be more of a threat.

Could you tell the gender of a solider under all that kit?
At any rate gender wouldn't come into it if I was shooting...
Take the easiest shot first then try for the other one...
If it was the same difficulty, whichever one is standing on the left.