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Made in us
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

Razorbacks cost less base because they carry less models. You make up for that with the cost of their guns though.
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Crap, you're right! I was adding them to the Rhino price, not the Razorback price(why are these even different?!). There's two Armourium Cherubs for me.


Once you throw the base twin heavy bolter on it is 82 vs the Rhino's 72. You get a five point discount for carrying 4 less people.

I guess carrying capacity is worth 1.25 ppm carried? :p

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





A Dark Place

So, assault cannons are my new favourite weapon on razors, stormtalons and landspeeders.
Krak missiles make for great pseudo-lascannons at half the price.
Scout bikers can put out 22 s4 shots @12" once you give the sgt a stormbolter for his pistol.

Next game I'm trying out heavy flamers on all my speeders, since they always seem to be getting assaulted. Pleased with the stormhawk for plinking wave serpents and other pesky FLY units.

My scouts are working nicely with a heavy bolter, 3 snipers and sgt with chainsword/stormbolter. Allows them to snipe and put out a fair amount of overwatch for when they inevitably get charged. Combi-flamer's a consideration.

My traditional melta LotD are pretty expensive, so I switched them to plasma (gun+ pistol), power axe on the sgt. Not too expensive and really worth it so far.
Captain with jumpack, combi-plas and powerfist is a boss. Supercharge and reroll 1s, charge, jump out of combat and shoot again.

darefsky wrote:Heck I have had times where I have sat down to paint, gotten everything ready, looked at it and went "nope I'm done."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Houston

Man I have so many questions.

How does the Stormtalon look? I rather like the model and am thinking of getting one. Wouldn't know how to kit it out though.

How would you all kit out your assault marines? Should I not bother with the plasma pistols? Thinking of giving the sarge a pair of claws.

Does the deathwind launcher look ok if I'm already bringing a drop pod? Only 3 points more than the storm bolter and it has one more strength and on average more attacks.

What's the word on the Dev squads weapons? From what I can gather (and see on the stats for myself) the lascannons look like their best tank/monster killers and plasma is more for units made of several high T and Armor models like Termies or Meganobz but can also do well against single big targets. Muli-melta looks like a high-risk/reward lasscanon due to short range but more potential damage and heavy bolter is the anti-light infantry option. I think the grav-cannon is meant to have a similar role to the plasma cannon but appears slightly better but at a higher cost. Missile launcher looks like it can either be a slightly worse lascannon or a slightly worse heavy bolter which could be good for the flexibility.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 19:32:28


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Man I have so many questions.

How does the Stormtalon look? I rather like the model and am thinking of getting one. Wouldn't know how to kit it out though.

How would you all kit out your assault marines? Should I not bother with the plasma pistols? Thinking of giving the sarge a pair of claws.

Does the deatwind launcher look ok if I'm already bringing a drop pod? Only 3 points more than the storm bolter and it has one more strength and on average more attacks.



The Talon looks good to me on paper. I’m torn on what guns to give it myself. Since it released, I’ve been a big fan of the Skyhammers. I’m continuing to lean that way. Moderate point cost, and the bonus vs. flyers is nice. If you need to shoot at something on the ground, the +1 you get from strafing run (miss-named on the sheet, as interceptor, but the rule is the same) counteracts it. But with everything being split fire, and a 60” range, you should be able to find something without mud on it to light up. But a little AA is a good thing, and should make for a nice TAC loadout.

I’m painting up some plasma pistols as we speak to put back on my assaults. If you plan on deep striking them, I think that’s the obvious choice. As the 9” you need between you and your target is greater then the flamers’ range. If you plan on starting on the table, the flamer remains a decent pick. But I’m probably going back to plasma on mine for most lists, unless I’m seriously lacking in ways to thin hordes.

The one big drawback with the deathwind remains the 12” range. While I agree it’s better then the SB within that, for an immobile platform, I like the option to reach out to 24” Sure, it’s not a lot of firepower, but it does add up of you are shooting multiple pods/rhinos/etc at things. That said, if you like the deathwind, it’s not the end of the world to take one. The points are negligible, and you trade long range for better close in fire. Not a trade I’d make, but I can see the merits to it.

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Made in us
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Houston

 Nevelon wrote:

If you plan on deep striking them, I think that’s the obvious choice. As the 9” you need between you and your target is greater then the flamers’ range. If you plan on starting on the table, the flamer remains a decent pick. But I’m probably going back to plasma on mine for most lists, unless I’m seriously lacking in ways to thin hordes.

The one big drawback with the deathwind remains the 12” range. While I agree it’s better then the SB within that, for an immobile platform, I like the option to reach out to 24” Sure, it’s not a lot of firepower, but it does add up of you are shooting multiple pods/rhinos/etc at things. That said, if you like the deathwind, it’s not the end of the world to take one. The points are negligible, and you trade long range for better close in fire. Not a trade I’d make, but I can see the merits to it.


I thought the same thing about the pistols, but I have no experience with space marines so I wasn't sure. I think I will deep strike them though, so they might take them then.

I only ask about the deathwind because if I add up all the space marines models I technically own (pre-ordered Dark Imperium with a friend) then I have 1997 points which I can just push to 2000 with the deathwind.




Was the company command squad broken up into company champion, apothecary, company ancient, and company veterans? And then the plain space marine captain with a plasma pistol and powersword of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 20:00:55


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.

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I'm going with plasma on my assault marines, but it's worth noting I'm going with chainswords for the melee weapons so the Plasma are my "Armor crackers"

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
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Houston

Anyone else feel that the eviscerater looks like a bad option?
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Anyone else feel that the eviscerater looks like a bad option?
Not if you put it on the Sergeant. He will have two attacks with it rather than one. I don't think it is worth the extra points and loss of a pistol though. It might be more expensive, but the five points more for a Thunder hammer and plasma pistol is a much better option.

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 Nevelon wrote:

The Talon looks good to me on paper. I’m torn on what guns to give it myself. Since it released, I’ve been a big fan of the Skyhammers. I’m continuing to lean that way. Moderate point cost, and the bonus vs. flyers is nice. If you need to shoot at something on the ground, the +1 you get from strafing run (miss-named on the sheet, as interceptor, but the rule is the same) counteracts it. But with everything being split fire, and a 60” range, you should be able to find something without mud on it to light up. But a little AA is a good thing, and should make for a nice TAC loadout.

The skyhammer is the last weapon I would choose for Stormtalon, it goes against the intended role of the vehicle. If you want an anti-air flyer, get Stormhawk, it does that job much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.

I'm absolutely ecstatic that apotecharies can again freely move about like the Emperor intended! I have hated the command squads ever since they were introduced in the third edition.

It is completely stupid that the honour guard squads are limited to two models though.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 23:12:51


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Houston

I think I agree with some of what was said earlier; Inceptors look too expensive for what they do. Their role could easily go to a single Stormtalon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 23:48:13


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.

I'm absolutely ecstatic that apotecharies can again freely move about like the Emperor intended! I have hated the command squads ever since they were introduced in the third edition.

It is completely stupid that the honour guard squads are limited to two models though.


Honour Guard should have been 2-4. It sucks I have to take two Elites choices to run them in a number that works. But at least I can attach an Apothecary like I wanted in 7th. Running two Honour Guard, an Apothecary, and my Chapter Master together in a Razorback (or Rhino Primaris) seems like it works out fairly well. The Honour Guard can eat a big hit that would have landed in Pedro, then the Apothecary resurrects them next turn. Between that, the Apothecary's healing ability, and Pedro's Warlord trait giving him Ignore on a 6, the unit should be pretty survivable. Add in that the HG have two wounds now, they should do okay.

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 GreatGranpapy wrote:
I think I agree with some of what was said earlier; Inceptors look too expensive for what they do. Their role could easily go to a single Stormtalon.

Yeah. Stormtalon with assault cannons and heavy bolters costs about the same as TWO inceptors. It has better firepower, and is more mobile and MUCH more resilient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Honour Guard should have been 2-4. It sucks I have to take two Elites choices to run them in a number that works. But at least I can attach an Apothecary like I wanted in 7th. Running two Honour Guard, an Apothecary, and my Chapter Master together in a Razorback (or Rhino Primaris) seems like it works out fairly well. The Honour Guard can eat a big hit that would have landed in Pedro, then the Apothecary resurrects them next turn. Between that, the Apothecary's healing ability, and Pedro's Warlord trait giving him Ignore on a 6, the unit should be pretty survivable. Add in that the HG have two wounds now, they should do okay.

Agreed. This is basically what I contemplated earlier using with a drop pod. Pedro + Honour Guard + Apotechary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 23:56:28


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.

The Talon is more general purpose and flexible. Strafing run negates the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. But it can also hover, and just fire for full effect. Sure, you are going to be vulnerable, but it’s not as bad as it was in previous editions. Giving up a -1 to hit is not the same as only snap shots. Taking the skyhammers gives it a solid AA presence, without sacrificing much in it’s primary role.

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Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






 Nevelon wrote:
The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.


A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

 benlac wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.


A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.


My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.

It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 12.5K+ Slowly growing 2Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Nevelon wrote:


My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.

And yet you want to equip Stormtalon with skyhammers...

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Nevelon wrote:
 benlac wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.


A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.


My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.

It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.
I think dedicated flyer hunters like a Stormhawk are largely unnecessary given that there is only a -1 to hit a flyer anymore.

Agreed on the Stormraven though. That thing is going to be great for my Blood Angels. I can't see myself running one with my Crimson Fists (too many $ for almost never seeing the board), though. I am focused on the ground game anyway. And given than I have ways to mitigate the shooting penalty imposed by flyers(Rhino Primaris for the win!), I think I would only be getting it to have a complete Storm Wing. My Stormtalons won't even be seeing play, I don't think (they would get Typhoon Missile Launchers instead of Skyhammers).

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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

 Crimson wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:


My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.

And yet you want to equip Stormtalon with skyhammers...


Because they can mitigate it.

A talon shooting skyhammers at a ground target on the move is hitting on a 5+ If they need to hit, they can stand still, and hit on a 4+. Not ideal, but I expect the AsCs to be doing the bulk of the work anyway. Plus with no firing arcs and a 60” range, I’m guessing you can find something to shoot. I always liked the talon as a multi-role flyer, so having a little edge vs. other flyers appeals to me. If I just want to shoot ground targets, I’ve got a whole codex full of stuff that can do that. But if I want anything resembling a change of knocking a supersonic flyer out of the sky, I need some sort of edge.

The game does favor hyper speculation. Or it did in pervious editions. I think 8th might be a little more gentle on flexible builds, with native split fire. Still just woking mostly with theoreticals at this point.

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Indiana

Don't forget that a lot of units have the fly rule now so it won't have those negatives against a larger variety of targets than just fliers,

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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 Nevelon wrote:

Because they can mitigate it.

A talon shooting skyhammers at a ground target on the move is hitting on a 5+ If they need to hit, they can stand still, and hit on a 4+. Not ideal, but I expect the AsCs to be doing the bulk of the work anyway. Plus with no firing arcs and a 60” range, I’m guessing you can find something to shoot. I always liked the talon as a multi-role flyer, so having a little edge vs. other flyers appeals to me. If I just want to shoot ground targets, I’ve got a whole codex full of stuff that can do that. But if I want anything resembling a change of knocking a supersonic flyer out of the sky, I need some sort of edge.

Both lascannons and Typhoon are better against air targets than Skyhammer, and massively better against ground targets. Sure, they're more expensive, but it's easily worth it. Do the math, Skyhammer is a gak weapon.

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Yeah the Skyhammer really seems weak right now. Makes me glad that I accidently assembled my stormtalon with the typhoon ML when I assembled it. Finally it's WYSIWYG again. ^^

On another note, what loadout do people prefer for their predators now? Predator Autocannon + Lascannon sponsons, or Twin Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons?



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Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

All Lascannons on the predators. For thirty seven more points over Devastators you get 5 more wounds and T7. The only downside over Devastators is th fact that enemy multi damage weapons will make you a lot sadder.

But if you are going to be running a bunch of ass backs, armour saturation is pretty swell...

I also assembled my Stormtalon with a Typhoon Launcher accidentally, since I figured the one firing more missiles would be the one with more missiles...

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Nevelon wrote:
 benlac wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.


A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.


My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.

It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.


I think the Storm Raven is going to be a hidden gem. It has a ton of special rules and can still function as a transport.
   
Made in ca
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Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.
   
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Oshawa Ontario

 benlac wrote:
Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.


Is it not "Twin-Assault cannons"? Basically the stats of 2 assault cannons, but in 1 weapon.

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 benlac wrote:
Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.


Twin-linked is pretty much gone in 8th. Everything that was twinlinked instead got turned into two weapons, i.e. Twin-linked Assault Cannon -> Twin Assault Cannon.

This of course means that everything that was twin-linked is much better, since twice the amount of shots is much better than half the amount but re-rolling to hit.

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Right, I meant Twin Assault Cannon, sorry.
It says on the stat card 'two assault cannons' for the interceptor, whereas on the razorback it says 'twin heavy bolters'. Now the twin IS an improvement over twin-linked, but having 'two assault cannons' means you have to pay for it twice, whereas when it's a 'twin' it's cheaper (for heavy bolters/assault cannons).
So apparently the Stormhawk DOESN"T have twin assault cannons, it has two assault cannons, which is dumb as they're fixed weapons both pointing the same direction. So now it makes the Stormhawk more expensive -_-
   
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Vancouver, BC

But you can technically shoot them at different targets..!

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
 
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