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Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator




 CrownAxe wrote:
Why does it matter? its not like small squads are suddenly immune to morale

If it were an actual issue you can just spend 2CP to pass the morale test


Small squads actually are less vulnerable to morale damage.

A single 20 man squad takes 10 wounds, it then loses D6+10 - 7 additional models.
If 2 10 man squads each take 5 wounds, they will each lose D6+5 - 7 additional models.

So on "average", you're losing 6.5 models in the larger unit and only 1.5 models in each of the smaller units (totalling 3 models).

Obviously this is just an example and the roll is variable, but larger squads definitely suffer morale damage worse. Smaller squads might also cause your opponent to overkill the unit and waste firepower (thus preventing wounds elsewhere).

You can throw CPs to stop the battleshock, but they're finite and is it really worth 2CP to save (for example) 6 wounds? Maybe, though it will depend on the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 22:32:33


 
   
Made in us
Frothing Warhound of Chaos





 labmouse42 wrote:
Yesterday I tried a mono-nurgle army for giggles. This is roughly what ran
Spoiler:
Greater Unclean One
DP of Nurgle
Herald of Nurgle
Herald of Nurgle
Herald of Nurgle

30 Plaugebearers w/Banner + Music
30 Plaugebearers w/Banner + Music
6 Nurglings
6 Nurglings
7 Nurglings

9 Plauge Drones of Nurgle
I played another chaos army. He brought some seekers, CSM terminators, Magnus, some Horrors, Slaanesh DP, and some daemonettes.

He rushed forward with his seekers and did a turn one assault with 15 seekers on my plague drones. They bounced off, doing only 2 wounds. The drones proceeded to kill all of the seekers. They moved up and assaulted a Slaanesh DP and murdered him. The last time I used plague drones they were lackluster, but this game they really stood up. The drones doing 2 wounds a pop is what took down the prince. He failed 4 saves and lost 8 wounds from just the drones.

Magnus was a beast. He tore through plague drones and single handedly wiped out 8 of them. He is just such a monster. He was throwing out multiple mortal wounds per round, getting 2d6 mortal wounds at once time. Magnus also prevented me from getting most of my powers off.

The plaguebeaers were better than I expected. He dropped his terminators next to magnus on turn one and killed my DP with focused fire from magnus and those termies. Combi-meltas hurt! I slammed into them with 30 plaguebearers, the GUO and a herald. It took 3 combat rounds, but they took him down. One problem with large groups of plaguebearers is that many of them could not get into combat. Overall the blocks performed much better than expected. His various power weapons did nothing significant against the plaugebearers. Over the entire combat he managed to kill ~4 of them, which repawned from the banner. I think 2 blocks is just a bit overkill though, and I can probably run with just 1 block.

The nurglings were great. The 4 wounds per block plus the ability to infiltrate makes them great drops. I was able to just pop them onto an objective and hide out of sight. When I had a herald near a block they were STR 3, which made them much more of a threat. The best thing about them was their ability to tie things up. I can see them really being useful to occupy havocs, etc...

The banner and instruments are musts in large blocks. Through the use of a command point reroll, I got a plague drone back -- which made up the points and kept them occupying Magnus for another round. The banners also procc'ed twice with plaguebringers, which was just hilarious. After killing the 10 terminators the plague bearers were at their original strength.

The GUO is solid. However, I don't think it will make the long term cut for the army. If I am going to keep going mono-nurgle, I'm going to need to add some ranged. I'm currently thinking of some forgefiends of nurgle or a renegade knight.

Three heralds was overkill, and just not effective. I'll probably pull it back to 1 herald and epidemus. Since forgefiends of nurgle are daemons of nurgle, they really benifit from the tallymaster. With just 2 units dead, they are rerolling 1s to hit. In my LFGS I'm noticing a trend for people to try to bring less drops to go first. This lessens the value of the tallymaster but it's still a good idea IMHO.

The biggest takeaway I had was this : I took a random theme army and put it on the table, and expected to get stomped. My buddy is a highly competitive national tournament winner player. He outmaneuvered me and did a great job. However, the nurgle army performed admirably well, and honestly with some tweaking could be viable. That speaks volumes for 7th edition.


Nice report.

So what made you decide to go with bigger Nurgling units instead of MSU?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Asura Varuna wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
Why does it matter? its not like small squads are suddenly immune to morale

If it were an actual issue you can just spend 2CP to pass the morale test


Small squads actually are less vulnerable to morale damage.

A single 20 man squad takes 10 wounds, it then loses D6+10 - 7 additional models.
If 2 10 man squads each take 5 wounds, they will each lose D6+5 - 7 additional models.

So on "average", you're losing 6.5 models in the larger unit and only 1.5 models in each of the smaller units (totalling 3 models).

Obviously this is just an example and the roll is variable, but larger squads definitely suffer morale damage worse. Smaller squads might also cause your opponent to overkill the unit and waste firepower (thus preventing wounds elsewhere).
problem to me. Its essentiall 3
You can throw CPs to stop the battleshock, but they're finite and is it really worth 2CP to save (for example) 6 wounds? Maybe, though it will depend on the game.

Yes you are trading some minor survivability for higher synergy from aura buffs. A minor survivability that can be ignored with CP if needed. Even the old issue of MSU wasting overkill is fairly moot in 8th because of split fire on everything so then can just have some weapons fire at a different unit instead of overkilling

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 23:47:36


 
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





So does Zeraknal (the exalted KOS) literally just auto wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness with mortal wounds no less, that seems really good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 00:27:22


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 Rydria wrote:
So does Zeraknal (the exalted KOS) literally just auto wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness with mortal wounds no less, that seems really good.


That is indeed what she does. Which is good because str 7 was kind of lackluster otherwise, even with Hysterical Frenzy.

EDIT: In fact, unless she's attacking vs T3 or less, the vast majority of her successful wounds (except on a 3+) will just auto do 3 mortal wounds each. Not too shabby for her cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 00:35:41


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Debilitate wrote:
Do lashing tongues (or mount attacks in general) benefit from herald +1 str auras?
The weapon has a base STR, not a 'user' defined STR.
So, no...the +1 STR does not effect the other weapons.
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





 luke1705 wrote:
 Rydria wrote:
So does Zeraknal (the exalted KOS) literally just auto wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness with mortal wounds no less, that seems really good.


That is indeed what she does. Which is good because str 7 was kind of lackluster otherwise, even with Hysterical Frenzy.

EDIT: In fact, unless she's attacking vs T3 or less, the vast majority of her successful wounds (except on a 3+) will just auto do 3 mortal wounds each. Not too shabby for her cost.
she is actually strength 8 with the sword if that matters, she seems to be an amazing duelist I can't wait for her to fight against my friends guliman 1 v 1 I think it will be a really cool fight,

Is there any situation where the claw is worth using over the souleater ?
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 CrownAxe wrote:

Yes you are trading some minor survivability for higher synergy from aura buffs. A minor survivability that can be ignored with CP if needed. Even the old issue of MSU wasting overkill is fairly moot in 8th because of split fire on everything so then can just have some weapons fire at a different unit instead of overkilling

I keep seeing people say this and that's just wrong. Imagine:
a unit of 10
2 units of 5
multiple attacks that do 10 wounds in total after rolls.
That will ALWAYS kill a squad of 10. However it will rarelly kill 2 squads of 5 because of how dice work. Those 10 wounds, are composed of 50 attacks. If you split them down the middle. Both squads get attacked 25 times. That doesn't mean they'll get 5 wounds each. They can get 8 and 2 wounds. And 3 of one squad would survive

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 02:56:36


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine






It is looking like big ol Scabby will be making back into my army again. Hes a bit cheaper now (still 610 pts) and packs some nice damage and tankiness, especially in CC

9k  
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Yes you are trading some minor survivability for higher synergy from aura buffs. A minor survivability that can be ignored with CP if needed. Even the old issue of MSU wasting overkill is fairly moot in 8th because of split fire on everything so then can just have some weapons fire at a different unit instead of overkilling

I keep seeing people say this and that's just wrong. Imagine:
a unit of 10
2 units of 5
multiple attacks that do 10 wounds in total after rolls.
That will ALWAYS kill a squad of 10. However it will rarelly kill 2 squads of 5 because of how dice work. Those 10 wounds, are composed of 50 attacks. If you split them down the middle. Both squads get attacked 25 times. That doesn't mean they'll get 5 wounds each. They can get 8 and 2 wounds. And 3 of one squad would survive
you do realize that we are talking theoretically here right? You talk in averages when you are theory crafting and two equal halfs of range do on average the same damage.

Your might get 2 and 8? Well you might also roll all 1s and do 0 damage. Doesn't mean it's a valid talking point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 04:26:20


 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 CrownAxe wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Yes you are trading some minor survivability for higher synergy from aura buffs. A minor survivability that can be ignored with CP if needed. Even the old issue of MSU wasting overkill is fairly moot in 8th because of split fire on everything so then can just have some weapons fire at a different unit instead of overkilling

I keep seeing people say this and that's just wrong. Imagine:
a unit of 10
2 units of 5
multiple attacks that do 10 wounds in total after rolls.
That will ALWAYS kill a squad of 10. However it will rarelly kill 2 squads of 5 because of how dice work. Those 10 wounds, are composed of 50 attacks. If you split them down the middle. Both squads get attacked 25 times. That doesn't mean they'll get 5 wounds each. They can get 8 and 2 wounds. And 3 of one squad would survive
you do realize that we are talking theoretically here right? You talk in averages when you are theory crafting and two equal halfs of range do on average the same damage.

Your might get 2 and 8? Well you might also roll all 1s and do 0 damage. Doesn't mean it's a valid talking point.

It is quite the talking point. Because the same roll with the same amount of wounds done will very rarelly do equal amount of wounds when divided by half.
If 50 shots cause 10 wounds, that will very rarelly mean that both 25 shot attacks will cause 5 wounds each
If that along with morale doesn't make you think MSU are more survivable - I don't know what to say.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/19 05:11:45


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





I never said MSU wasnt more survivable. My point was that the increase in survivability doesn't outweigh the benefits of large units

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/19 05:18:31


 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 CrownAxe wrote:
I never said MSU wasnt more survivable. My point was that the increase in survivability doesn't outweigh the benefits of large units


I never argued that. I argued the word "minor".
MSU are definitelly better when the units don't have any "have more than x models" abilities. If you think otherwise - do tell
MSU pros:
1. More survivable vs shooting
2. Not nearly as much morale problems
3. Require 2 charges to take down.
4. Can split up if necessary
5. Free "captain" upgrades

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 05:42:02


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 Ebolatheripe wrote:
So what made you decide to go with bigger Nurgling units instead of MSU?
Drops. My thought was the lower the number of drops to increase the chances of going first.

The reality is that, however, that deamons have a hard time with going first. Daemon armies don't have transports. Where a marine player can drop a razorbak and say "There is a squad, a character in there", so in one drop they put down 3 units -- we are forced to drop all 3 at once.

My idea was to go with bigger drops to increase the rate of success on going first. This does not seem to be a good plan. Unless I can find a way to keep the drops at 8 or less. Going with MSU throws that out the window.
MSU also gives up first blood. There is also a mission where MSU struggles (Purge the Alien). I don't want to be going into a tourney and 1/6 of the missions being an auto-loss.

So I was thinking of how to cut down on drops. That's was my thought process.
If you have any suggestions I'm all ears. Summing is an option for htis, actually.

   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

 labmouse42 wrote:
 Ebolatheripe wrote:
So what made you decide to go with bigger Nurgling units instead of MSU?
Drops. My thought was the lower the number of drops to increase the chances of going first.

The reality is that, however, that deamons have a hard time with going first. Daemon armies don't have transports. Where a marine player can drop a razorbak and say "There is a squad, a character in there", so in one drop they put down 3 units -- we are forced to drop all 3 at once.

My idea was to go with bigger drops to increase the rate of success on going first. This does not seem to be a good plan. Unless I can find a way to keep the drops at 8 or less. Going with MSU throws that out the window.
MSU also gives up first blood. There is also a mission where MSU struggles (Purge the Alien). I don't want to be going into a tourney and 1/6 of the missions being an auto-loss.

So I was thinking of how to cut down on drops. That's was my thought process.
If you have any suggestions I'm all ears. Summing is an option for htis, actually.



This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.

Also what are your thoughts on a competitive list?
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




Just want to pop in and say that I faced a Daemon list yesterday that made me question the idea of balance entirely. LoC, 2 CSM Princes, Renegade Knight, 3 Flamer Chariots, Changeling, and then like 10+ units of Brimstones with a Blue in each. All the Smite in the world, all the 4++ in the world. Brims covered like 2/3 of the board and I don't know any army in the game that has enough shots to take them all out. Disgusting, but I'm honestly impressed at how fast it was put out.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.

Also what are your thoughts on a competitive list?
Nice! Were there any other gems you saw there that were relevant to daemon players.

Personally I want to explore the synergy between daemon engines (maulerfiends in particular) and the Tallymaster. The idea of buffing them with nurgle heralds is really appealing. The drawback of nurgle has been the damage output and the speed issues -- both of which the daemon engines can solve.
The same concept would also work with the cult of destruction, such as mutilators. It can also be used on possessed in a rhino -- but possessed are a bit fragile for their cost.
I've also been tossing around the idea of relying more upon nurglings instead of shooting to counter units like havocs. I'm still not sold on the idea.

As far as 'most competitive' from the CD codex, I would just go wtih what FLG has said.
* Exalted Flamers
* Brimstone Horrors
* Nurglings
* Bloodcrushers

To add to that I would say
* Daemon Princes
* Flamers

I think those are the gems in our codex, and I'm sure we will find more as we get more games in.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
I never said MSU wasnt more survivable. My point was that the increase in survivability doesn't outweigh the benefits of large units


I never argued that. I argued the word "minor".
MSU are definitelly better when the units don't have any "have more than x models" abilities. If you think otherwise - do tell
MSU pros:
1. More survivable vs shooting
2. Not nearly as much morale problems
3. Require 2 charges to take down.
4. Can split up if necessary
5. Free "captain" upgrades


I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.

1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.

2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.

3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.

4.) Definitely an advantage

5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.



As for large squad advantages

a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I'm going full on derp here....

In a Tzeentch Demon Supreme Detachment.... could I also add Magnus to the one LOW slot by virtue of having keyword Tzeentch (or keyword of Demon for that matter)?

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 iddy00711 wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 Ebolatheripe wrote:
So what made you decide to go with bigger Nurgling units instead of MSU?
Drops. My thought was the lower the number of drops to increase the chances of going first.

The reality is that, however, that deamons have a hard time with going first. Daemon armies don't have transports. Where a marine player can drop a razorbak and say "There is a squad, a character in there", so in one drop they put down 3 units -- we are forced to drop all 3 at once.

My idea was to go with bigger drops to increase the rate of success on going first. This does not seem to be a good plan. Unless I can find a way to keep the drops at 8 or less. Going with MSU throws that out the window.
MSU also gives up first blood. There is also a mission where MSU struggles (Purge the Alien). I don't want to be going into a tourney and 1/6 of the missions being an auto-loss.

So I was thinking of how to cut down on drops. That's was my thought process.
If you have any suggestions I'm all ears. Summing is an option for htis, actually.



This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.

Also what are your thoughts on a competitive list?


I'm confused as to what you mean by this. Atm we have to deploy all our units and HQs seperatally. And people with transports can just shove all their HQs into 1 transport and a unit and plonk it down as 1 drop. Proof here:
Spoiler:
For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only
War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying
their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz
on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors
on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the
battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start
the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked
inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses
their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium
chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their
next unit, and so on.

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




What's a supreme detachment?
A Low detachment is one thing on its own, so take Magnus in that.
Chaos can be your common keyword, but yes Magnus has Tzeentch too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daemons have an advantage over other reserve armies.
Deploying in reserves Does count towards number of deployments. (Deploying in transports doesnr)
But summoning reserves won't, which helps a bit

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 15:15:38


DFTT 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





 whembly wrote:
I'm going full on derp here....

In a Tzeentch Demon Supreme Detachment.... could I also add Magnus to the one LOW slot by virtue of having keyword Tzeentch (or keyword of Demon for that matter)?


Yup. All that matters is that all units must have at least one of their keywords in common.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
What's a supreme detachment?
A Low detachment is one thing on its own, so take Magnus in that.
Chaos can be your common keyword, but yes Magnus has Tzeentch too


I meant the supreme command detachement, where it's 3-6 HQ, 1 Elite and 1 LOW.

So, let's say I have 3 Tzeentch herald in this detachement... could I stuff Magnus in that LOW slot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 whembly wrote:
I'm going full on derp here....

In a Tzeentch Demon Supreme Detachment.... could I also add Magnus to the one LOW slot by virtue of having keyword Tzeentch (or keyword of Demon for that matter)?


Yup. All that matters is that all units must have at least one of their keywords in common.

Thank you.

Dunno why I'm making this harder...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 15:20:28


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Snord





Florida

 whembly wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
What's a supreme detachment?
A Low detachment is one thing on its own, so take Magnus in that.
Chaos can be your common keyword, but yes Magnus has Tzeentch too


I meant the supreme command detachement, where it's 3-6 HQ, 1 Elite and 1 LOW.

So, let's say I have 3 Tzeentch herald in this detachement... could I stuff Magnus in that LOW slot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 whembly wrote:
I'm going full on derp here....

In a Tzeentch Demon Supreme Detachment.... could I also add Magnus to the one LOW slot by virtue of having keyword Tzeentch (or keyword of Demon for that matter)?


Yup. All that matters is that all units must have at least one of their keywords in common.

Thank you.

Dunno why I'm making this harder...


Yes, Magnus has the Chaos, Daemon, Heretic Astartes, Thousand Sons and Tzeentch keywords (as well as a few more).

I play:
40K: Daemons, Genestealer Cults
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Gremlins,Neverborn
Wrath of Kings: Shael Han
Dark Age: Brood, Kukulkani
Guild Ball: Morticians, Brewers 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.
I just checked out the FAQ
Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on
Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)
Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/19 16:27:45


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






On the daemon princes+ belakor luls build, you should pick up the FW index and bring a grip of Giant Chaos spawn too. They are less than half the cost of a DP, only T5, with a +4/++5, but they generate wounds and get stronger the higher they go. Very fun unit to use, and with the "daemon" keyword he +4WS isn't that bad with be-lakor around.

For summoning, I am hoping R&H characters can be used, as they have always been exceptionally cheap. For the big FW summons it isn't too bad if your 2 power character dies to get Scabriethrax up in the enemies face on turn 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 16:30:02


   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But summoning reserves won't, which helps a bit
You can also summon on any turn in the game -- even turns 5 and 6.

However, summing's big limitation is that the character doing the summoning cannot move. If your character is currently engaged in a 'fight' with another model, it's not such a bad thing. However, if they are not, and are not a shooting unit, then this can be a big drawback.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maybe something like an exalted flamer would be best suited.

There must be a sweet spot for reserve points, where you can get a good range of stuff that is useful against different targets.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 labmouse42 wrote:
 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.
I just checked out the FAQ
Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on
Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)
Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.


Yup, transports are a big deal for drops. Especially for characters. Having large squads can help reduce your drops, but unless you are playing a fairly low CP list you are going to have 2-4 characters at least. Summoning can help a bit, but unless you are keeping a ton of points in an unreliable mode of delivery I would avoid using it much. It seems to me that the best use might be just dropping 1 character for every 2 you buy (especially for heralds). So if you drop a daemon prince, then summon the herald on as most have reasonably low Power levels.
   
Made in us
Frothing Warhound of Chaos





 labmouse42 wrote:
 Ebolatheripe wrote:
So what made you decide to go with bigger Nurgling units instead of MSU?
Drops. My thought was the lower the number of drops to increase the chances of going first.

The reality is that, however, that deamons have a hard time with going first. Daemon armies don't have transports. Where a marine player can drop a razorbak and say "There is a squad, a character in there", so in one drop they put down 3 units -- we are forced to drop all 3 at once.

My idea was to go with bigger drops to increase the rate of success on going first. This does not seem to be a good plan. Unless I can find a way to keep the drops at 8 or less. Going with MSU throws that out the window.
MSU also gives up first blood. There is also a mission where MSU struggles (Purge the Alien). I don't want to be going into a tourney and 1/6 of the missions being an auto-loss.

So I was thinking of how to cut down on drops. That's was my thought process.
If you have any suggestions I'm all ears. Summing is an option for this, actually.



Your analysis enforces what I suspected.

I kind of gave up on the idea of lower drops because I think you get more out of MSU when using Nurglings, and it seems like a long shot with Daemon armies to beat most other armies in drops. So why try? Go the other direction:

1. It's easy to take multiple Battalions and get the extra Command Points when you spam Nurglings (or Horrors for that matter). I will always have 9-12 Command Points starting if I go Nurgle.

2. Board Control. Reduce where, or eliminate where, enemy units can deepstrike, take objectives on turn 1, and slow enemy board advancement to a crawl.

3. You can still seize the initiative on a 6

There is also a mission where MSU struggles (Purge the Alien). I don't want to be going into a tourney and 1/6 of the missions being an auto-loss."


You mean No Mercy? Yes that would be a problem. The only thing I can think of to mitigate that would be to kind of reverse tactics, and instead of deploying up field to interrupt movement, have the Nurglings camp on objectives and area deny deepstikes in the back field, while the rest of your army moves up. It's not a great plan, but it might give you the best chance of winning that one mission.

At the same time, while you're at a disadvantage for No Mercy, you have a lot more flexibility and a pretty big advantage for The Relic mission because while the Nurglings can't take the Objective, they can block the enemy from getting to it better with more individual units camped out around The Relic until you can get an infantry unit there.
   
 
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