Switch Theme:

Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Also... keep in mind that in a tournament, even if you go full-bore MSU, your opponent may choose to go 2nd anyways due to objective scoring.

Getting 1st turn like that is A-OK by me!


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 whembly wrote:
Also... keep in mind that in a tournament, even if you go full-bore MSU, your opponent may choose to go 2nd anyways due to objective scoring.

Getting 1st turn like that is A-OK by me!



I think that is less important in 8th as objectives are scored by whoever has the most models near the objective. So last turn claim or contest is more difficult. The only real reason I can see for going second is to have better shots on a table full of los blockers.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists

   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Yeah it again feels like only the fastest of Daemons are going to cut it and even those seem like they'll struggle mightily against the amount of shots some armies can put down range. Doubly so with the changes to cover and the fact that that we currently have very little in the way of defensive buffs to spread around.

Sure spamming brimstones can probably win a lot of games, but that is an exceptionally boring looking list to me not to mention I don't want to purchase a bazillion of the little buggers. None of the units I have decent amounts of (screamers, Disc Heralds, plague drones, hounds) look that great so I am a little sad.

"Backfield? I have no backfield." 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Buffalo, NY

Is Fateweaver playable in this edition?

Looks super expensive and doesn't have a 4++, anyone try him yet? I have yet to play a game after getting the new books but am trying to piece together some playable Daemon lists.

1000 pts
4000 pts
(SW) 3000 pts
7000 pts 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

"Backfield? I have no backfield." 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Buffalo, NY

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.


That's true, Magnus does look like an absolute beast. Definitely going to build a list around him, Be'Lakor, and several Nurgle princes. Shame Fatey doesn't stack up, I love the new model. The standard Lord of Change doesn't look terrible with the psychic bonuses, but I feel like Daemon Princes are so cheap with wings and a pair of Malefic Talons that it's hard not to just take 2 of them instead of a greater daemon...

1000 pts
4000 pts
(SW) 3000 pts
7000 pts 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 rabidguineapig wrote:
 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.


That's true, Magnus does look like an absolute beast. Definitely going to build a list around him, Be'Lakor, and several Nurgle princes. Shame Fatey doesn't stack up, I love the new model. The standard Lord of Change doesn't look terrible with the psychic bonuses, but I feel like Daemon Princes are so cheap with wings and a pair of Malefic Talons that it's hard not to just take 2 of them instead of a greater daemon...

And if you are taking Magnus, you might as well take 2 CSM Thousand Sons Princes. They only have 8W, instead of 10, so they can hide behind units and benefit from Magnus's abilities/powers

   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

 labmouse42 wrote:
 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.
I just checked out the FAQ
Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on
Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)
Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.



You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists


Exactly this. Daemons are pretty shafted right now without resorting to new variations of the janky cheese builds which made them so despised in previous editions.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

Magnus's aura only works on Thousand Sons units (so no reroll 1's for your tzeentch daemon units and such) and I think the Tzeentch discipline is a little better than Dark Hereticus. The bigger issue is that Kairos seems to mostly be worse than a Lord of Change, with 3+ WS and only the 5++ invuln. I think running Magnus and a Lord of Change is going to be a really enticing option for Tzeentch armies but I don't see much of an argument for Kairos over a LoC.
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





how are furies looking? especially nurgle furies with their two saves should be pretty resilient-albeit with poor poor leadership!
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Has anyone noticed that with Herald support Bloodcrushers (the mount, not the rider) are strength 9 on the charge with 3 attacks each?

They're so fragile that I don't see them achieving much, but if you can actually get them into combat unmolested they seem to wreck heavy targets pretty hard.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.
Truth. The ONLY reason I can see is that Magnus is a LoW, where Fatey is a HQ.
Still, with the way you can bring 3 detachments, that should never be an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has anyone noticed that with Herald support Bloodcrushers (the mount, not the rider) are strength 9 on the charge with 3 attacks each?
They're so fragile that I don't see them achieving much, but if you can actually get them into combat unmolested they seem to wreck heavy targets pretty hard.
How do you get up to STR 9 with them?
Crushers seem fantastic to me. 6 of them would hit like a ton of bricks.
T4, 3 wounds 5++, 4+ is not THAT fragile. If you are considering summing, they are a prime candidate for the summon, being 8 power for 3 of them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/20 01:57:41


 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has anyone noticed that with Herald support Bloodcrushers (the mount, not the rider) are strength 9 on the charge with 3 attacks each?

They're so fragile that I don't see them achieving much, but if you can actually get them into combat unmolested they seem to wreck heavy targets pretty hard.


That is not the case unfortunately. The "Bladed Horn" is a weapon profile, meaning it has a flat Strength characteristic of 5 (+2 when charging) that does not benefit from the Heralds +1 Strength aura or Unstoppable Ferocity which both boost the Strength characteristic of the unit's profile. Same goes for things like Plague Drone's mounts and the Lamprey's bite of Burning Chariots.

"Backfield? I have no backfield." 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

This man speaks the truth. It's been so long since I've seen a melee weapon with a set weapon strength that I forgot how that worked.

What's interesting then is that it must be set to 5 specifically to AVOID the scenario I just laid out. Why are some factions just never allowed to have fun?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 03:23:01


 
   
Made in ca
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger



Vancouver, BC

I think that whenever I run my Tzeentch DP, I'll always pick the Treason of Tzeentch power for him.

In the two games I've played so far, that power has been quite handy. I've made a Weirdboy charge into a Morkanaut, and a Company Commander charge and knock out some of his own men.

I may even take the Tzeentch prince just to use this power, as he can also survive a good while, and dish out some useful CC damage.

What do you think?
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





 BlaxicanX wrote:
This man speaks the truth. It's been so long since I've seen a melee weapon with a set weapon strength that I forgot how that worked.

What's interesting then is that it must be set to 5 specifically to AVOID the scenario I just laid out. Why are some factions just never allowed to have fun?


I feel you. It took me a good while and many double takes to notice myself. I was initially stoked about the prospect of a big Plague Drone unit + Herald with Virulent Blessing before I realized 4 out of the 5 attacks (and the 4 most meaningful ones) they get wouldnt benefit from the +1 Strength buff of the Herald.

"Backfield? I have no backfield." 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





Terminal wrote:
I think that whenever I run my Tzeentch DP, I'll always pick the Treason of Tzeentch power for him.

In the two games I've played so far, that power has been quite handy. I've made a Weirdboy charge into a Morkanaut, and a Company Commander charge and knock out some of his own men.

I may even take the Tzeentch prince just to use this power, as he can also survive a good while, and dish out some useful CC damage.

What do you think?


If we can't assassinate them easily, make them work for us!

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Terminal wrote:
I think that whenever I run my Tzeentch DP, I'll always pick the Treason of Tzeentch power for him.

In the two games I've played so far, that power has been quite handy. I've made a Weirdboy charge into a Morkanaut, and a Company Commander charge and knock out some of his own men.

I may even take the Tzeentch prince just to use this power, as he can also survive a good while, and dish out some useful CC damage.

What do you think?


Glad to hear its worked out for you. I haven't tried it yet but it feels unreliable to me on paper. It takes an 8 to cast which is just on the bad side of 50/50 to begin with and then you have to roll another 2D6 and roll greater than the targets leadership which for most characters means you need a 9 minimum which is even less reliable. Sure its great when it happens but I see it being very situational at best.

"Backfield? I have no backfield." 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 iddy00711 wrote:


You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.

No. YOU are reading it incorrectly. Read the example

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Gurnee, IL

 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists


Well you do can auto pass with command points in a clinch. But we really needed some sort of morale phase mitigation like Nids and Orks got. Seriously, why do the more numerous and cheaper Heralds do nothing for morale? Or just a fluffy army wide rule like subtracting the number of souls reaped "models slain" that turn by the testing unit. Call it Soul Devour or something...easy. My guess though is that GW "balanced" Chaos Daemons based on them being taken with Chaos Space Marines.

"Fear the cute ones." 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






 Sersi wrote:
 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists


Well you do can auto pass with command points in a clinch. But we really needed some sort of morale phase mitigation like Nids and Orks got. Seriously, why do the more numerous and cheaper Heralds do nothing for morale? Or just a fluffy army wide rule like subtracting the number of souls reaped "models slain" that turn by the testing unit. Call it Soul Devour or something...easy. My guess though is that GW "balanced" Chaos Daemons based on them being taken with Chaos Space Marines.


Deamons will have 3 HQ. MSU brimstone horrors are 20 points per troops choice. Deamons can easily fill out 3 battalions and have 12 command points to negate morale checks.

120 bloodletters in 4 squads of 30 plus 5 squads of 10 brimstone=1180 points


Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Hey all.

Just looking for some advice on the legality of my list, rather than the efficiency of it. I'm pretty much just bundling together a load of models I already have painted so I can try stuff out. I'm just a bit unclear about whether I can include the CSM DPs in the same detachment as Daemons? If I understand correctly, they all share the same faction keyword of "Chaos", so they can all play together.

Supreme command
Belakor
Khorne daemon prince (World Eaters) - wings, axe, warp bolter
Khorne daemon prince (World Eaters) - wings, axe
3 x flamers

Battalion
Nurgle daemon prince (Death Guard) - wings, sword
Nurgle daemon prince (Death Guard) - wings, sword
3 x nurglings
3 x nurglings
3 x nurglings

Battalion
Slaanesh daemon prince (emperor's children) - wings, 2 x talons, warp bolter
Tzeentch daemon prince (thousand sons) - wings, 2 x talons
10 x plaguebearers (banner, instrument)
10 x plaguebearers (banner, instrument)
10 x plaguebearers (banner, instrument)

I've gone for CSM DPs so I can hide them better (8 wounds), although perhaps in a list like this it would be better to use the more powerful CD versions.
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator




Yes that list is legal.

One thing to note about the CSM variants is that they don't actually get the Daemons rules associated with their CD counterpart - no Quicksilver Swiftness or Disgustingly Resilient. Also, there seems very little reason to take any of the weapon options over simply a pair of Talons, though that does of course limit your modelling opportunities.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Lovely cheers. Tbh I might just use the CD versions anyway to try out the abilities. It's clearly not an optimised list so I shouldn't really worry! The swords and axes are only there because that's how I have them modelled from previous editions and age of Sigmar. Hopefully future codex releases will give us some more interesting weapon options.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 schadenfreude wrote:
120 bloodletters in 4 squads of 30 plus 5 squads of 10 brimstone=1180 points
You would be better off ramping up with bloodcrushers and a herald on a throne instead of the bloodletters.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 iddy00711 wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.
I just checked out the FAQ
Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on
Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)
Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.



You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.


No you have it backwards, you set up the transport and all units within it at the same time. Hence the "these are not separate deployment choices". As for why would a deepstriking unit count and not a transported one. The deepstriking unit is not required to deploy in a specific location, the embarked unit must be in the transport.
   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 iddy00711 wrote:


You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.

No. YOU are reading it incorrectly. Read the example


Yeah, my bad, you're right. I did re-read it several times before commenting. Confirmation bias and dyslexia clearly don't complement each other hah.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 13:06:54


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





What is everyone doing for anti tank these days?
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: