whembly wrote:
Also... keep in mind that in a tournament, even if you go full-bore MSU, your opponent may choose to go 2nd anyways due to objective scoring.

Getting 1st turn like that is A-OK by me!

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

That's true, Magnus does look like an absolute beast. Definitely going to build a list around him, Be'Lakor, and several Nurgle princes. Shame Fatey doesn't stack up, I love the new model. The standard Lord of Change doesn't look terrible with the psychic bonuses, but I feel like Daemon Princes are so cheap with wings and a pair of Malefic Talons that it's hard not to just take 2 of them instead of a greater daemon...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.

I just checked out the FAQ

Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)

Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.

 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
I can't fathom a reason to take him when Magnus is only 15 pts more.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has anyone noticed that with Herald support Bloodcrushers (the mount, not the rider) are strength 9 on the charge with 3 attacks each?
They're so fragile that I don't see them achieving much, but if you can actually get them into combat unmolested they seem to wreck heavy targets pretty hard.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has anyone noticed that with Herald support Bloodcrushers (the mount, not the rider) are strength 9 on the charge with 3 attacks each?

They're so fragile that I don't see them achieving much, but if you can actually get them into combat unmolested they seem to wreck heavy targets pretty hard.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
This man speaks the truth. It's been so long since I've seen a melee weapon with a set weapon strength that I forgot how that worked.

What's interesting then is that it must be set to 5 specifically to AVOID the scenario I just laid out. Why are some factions just never allowed to have fun?

Terminal wrote:
I think that whenever I run my Tzeentch DP, I'll always pick the Treason of Tzeentch power for him.

In the two games I've played so far, that power has been quite handy. I've made a Weirdboy charge into a Morkanaut, and a Company Commander charge and knock out some of his own men.

I may even take the Tzeentch prince just to use this power, as he can also survive a good while, and dish out some useful CC damage.

What do you think?

Terminal wrote:
I think that whenever I run my Tzeentch DP, I'll always pick the Treason of Tzeentch power for him.

In the two games I've played so far, that power has been quite handy. I've made a Weirdboy charge into a Morkanaut, and a Company Commander charge and knock out some of his own men.

I may even take the Tzeentch prince just to use this power, as he can also survive a good while, and dish out some useful CC damage.

What do you think?

 iddy00711 wrote:


You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.

 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists

 Sersi wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm still not convinced that "big" units of Daemons can work at all. With only a 5++(or 4++ for Tz) and generally T3/4, it doesn't seem that hard to kill about half a units of Lesser Daemons and let Morale take the rest.

Are Greater Daemons and Icons the only way to mitigate this? If so, that sucks as neither are really reliable. The Icon is a 1-n-6 chance and GDs have a limited range.

I wish Daemon hordes were playable, but I get the feeling that this edition will just continue the flying DP spam lists

Well you do can auto pass with command points in a clinch. But we really needed some sort of morale phase mitigation like Nids and Orks got. Seriously, why do the more numerous and cheaper Heralds do nothing for morale? Or just a fluffy army wide rule like subtracting the number of souls reaped "models slain" that turn by the testing unit. Call it Soul Devour or something...easy. My guess though is that GW "balanced" Chaos Daemons based on them being taken with Chaos Space Marines.

 schadenfreude wrote:
120 bloodletters in 4 squads of 30 plus 5 squads of 10 brimstone=1180 points

 iddy00711 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 iddy00711 wrote:
This was just FAQ'ed on the weekend, if you embark upon a transport, you count as a deployed unit.

I just checked out the FAQ

Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, it still shows the same problem.
As player with transports, I can minimize my set of drops by putting my units in transports. Some units, like a stormraven can carry 12 models plus a dread. This means for one 'drop' they can deploy 6 choices. He raven, a dread, two 5 man squads, and 2 ICs. That's a huge advantage in drops, greatly increasing the chances of them going first.
Daemons without any transports cannot easily compete. Our best 'transport' is summoning, which is fairly limited in effect.

Breng77 wrote:
I think MSU advantage is much less than it has been in past editions.
1.) The survivability vs shooting is still true especially for use of cover, but splitfire makes this less of an issue, as you no longer need to commit whole squads to finishing off a couple models.
2.) True, unless you can mitigate morale, which most large squads can to some extent.
3.) No, and since disordered charge is not a thing anymore a multi-charge can take out both units. The advantage would be that you can spread out more. Further, the lack of initiative, and how combat works favors larger squads, if you get charged by a unit now it is very possible a small squad won't get to swing at all, but a larger squad might. Also, since you activate one unit at a time, when alternating combat activations having 1 large squad is better than 2 small squads. Similarly if you charge me with 2 small squads I can command point interrupt the second before it swings.
4.) Definitely an advantage
5.)Some armies get free sarge upgrades, but unless you are spending points on upgrades for these models, there is not much difference here.

As for large squad advantages
a.) make better use of buffs and auras. (many psychic powers target single units, many auras allow chaining models to spread out your benefit.)
b.)make better use of command points (if you need to re-roll a run, or charge dice, if you want immunity to morale only one unit can do it each turn.)
c.) fewer drops for deployment = turn 1 advantage
d.)more effective in combat after overwatch. (A 5 man squad losing 2-3 models in overwatch is now pretty useless, a 10 man squad is still pretty good.)

Good call. The biggest benefits I can see are A and C.
Aura's are huge in this game, and being able to easily apply them to units provides some strong advantages.
Being able to go first can be significant, especially since turn one charges are a thing.
In the example above, a BA assault army coming from stormravens could greatly reduce the amount of return fire by shoving 2-3 ravens up into someone's grill and then assaulting out of them on turn two. That means only absorbing one round of incoming fire vs two.

You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 iddy00711 wrote:


You are reading it incorrectly, " When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.". You set up each unit nominally and then a transport 'picks up' that unit before the game starts. Why would a deep striking unit count as deploying while a transported unit doesn't.

No. YOU are reading it incorrectly. Read the example