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Neronoxx wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
I really don't think that the rate at which casualties are refilled in a marine army determines what their main stay force is.
Like, they still follow the codex astartes in large. And the codex still says 'use more tacticals than other things guys."
Now, you could state that its as a consequence of their unique preferences for lightning assaults. But the outrider detachment has that covered, as I doubt any space marine commander is going to waste precious mobile units as guard dogs.
A blood angel commander would be much more in character abandoning the objective (or leaving only a basic complement) and pushing on to other weak spots.
And to me, that just doesn't ring "Assault Marines with objective secured."

I think you missed the part where the assault marines covering an objective might BE tacticals. Just with their jump packs on.

I'm just correcting the common misconception that the reason they were troops at one time was because they had more. The codex that had them as troops directly says that is NOT the case, but at the same time they effectively DO have more because EVERYONE who isn't a scout is a potential assault marine.

Tactical Marines armed as Assault marines aren't Tactical Marines, or are you going to tell me that a tactical marine armed as an assault marine does the same job as a tactical marine armed as an tactical marine? Assault marines can not do what tacticals can.

And we agree that they don't have more marines, I feel the last codex established that safely.
I want BA to be good, but assault marines as troops really does nothing for us if you think about where that places the army against its competitors. We need solid rules for our army, not a game of musical chairs with our troop choices.

I wasn't the one saying they should be troops. AGAIN, I was correcting a misconception that people always respond with when someone suggests that they should be. And I never said that change would do us any good either. Please pay attention to who you're responding to.

And just because you hand tactical sergeant Joe a jump pack does not make him stop being a tactical sergeant. He may not currently be in a tactical squad for a mission, but that does not make him NOT a tactical marine. Are you seriously thinking that once they get the title of tactical marine that they lose all ability to strap on a pack and fly? I think you are thinking waaaay too much in terms of game mechanics and not about fluff, which is what was being discussed on this tangent.

On the topic of in-game performance, I'd love for traditional BA with a focus on jump packs and assaults to be good, but they would need some way to mitigate cheap enemy screen units, which hard-counter close-range and assault lists in the current game. Perhaps if they caused an extra morale test on any squad that they charged that would help them get past the screens faster, or if they had a strat for a squad to do a precision landing instead of staying 9" away so they could actually put some damage on the really important enemy units that usually sit behind the screens shooting or smiting in safety.

Okay.
First, can you use the spoiler tag?
Second, maybe take things less personal.
Third, I never said you said anything. Was reiterating my position, which is relevant.
Fourth, assaults and tacticals are armed with different weapons for different jobs. This means they do not adequately fill each others roles. That's pretty simple.
Fifth, accurate deep striking has long been a Blood Angel trait. While I don't see them giving us any love in terms of the 9" away from enemies, I could see a bonus to charging from reserves or something similar as an alternative.
But withou a major melee component like rerolls wounds or something similar it wont matter.
We need to be good at combat before GW starts worrying about how to get us there. And basic marines are suckish in melee, so that'll be the make-or-break for us.

You continue to confuse in game mechanics with fluff. inv-midget is talking about fluff not in game mechanics.

There are going to be a lot of disappointed Blood Angels players if we expect our Codex to fix the assault rules. That's a core rulebook problem and beyond what the Codex can fix. I'm sure assault for us will be more viable, but as the sole playstyle for the army it'll never happen unless tweaks to the fight phase are made which isn't coming anytime soon.

Neronoxx wrote:
Okay.
First, can you use the spoiler tag?
Second, maybe take things less personal.
Third, I never said you said anything. Was reiterating my position, which is relevant.
Fourth, assaults and tacticals are armed with different weapons for different jobs. This means they do not adequately fill each others roles. That's pretty simple.
Fifth, accurate deep striking has long been a Blood Angel trait. While I don't see them giving us any love in terms of the 9" away from enemies, I could see a bonus to charging from reserves or something similar as an alternative.
But withou a major melee component like rerolls wounds or something similar it wont matter.
We need to be good at combat before GW starts worrying about how to get us there. And basic marines are suckish in melee, so that'll be the make-or-break for us.

-I'm not taking anything personal, just saying that it seems like you're jumping in while misunderstanding the discussion and/or responding to the wrong person. Maybe you're projecting?

-reiterating your position to someone has the implication that they disagree with it. You don't keep telling someone that the sky is blue unless they say it isn't.

-You are talking about in game mechanics, where yes, tacticals are armed with bolters and asm are armed with CS/pistol/pack, and there is no accounting for the fluff of whether those are the actual normal positions for those specific marines. We were not discussing the in-game mechanics at all though. RT brought up fluff justification (or lack thereof,) of a rule, and I was responding with fluff justification for it. In fluff a tactical marine can grab his chainsword, bolt pistol, and jump pack out of his locker onboard the battle barge if his captain says he needs extra assault power for a mission. That doesn't make him not a tactical marine, just like the captain changing his loadout doesn't make him not a captain. The only difference is that actual mechanics on the table allow the captain to do that, while they don't represent the possibility of the tac marine doing so.

-I don't disagree that we need melee love in general, especially quite a bit more punch, but speaking as an experienced tourney player and judge, the biggest problem I see with melee and close range armies is the existence of stubborn screen units. Some armies, for a mere hundred or two points, can completely contain incoming damage to their screens for the first couple turns while dealing damage with the entire rest of their army. The close range style currently can't beat this strategy played correctly without at least a solid turn of the opponent rolling 1's. And while you might say "well you should have some long range elements," that would be a short sighted comment. Having only a handful number of units doing anything relevant while the rest swim in a screen of bodies is still a losing proposition. You only approach viability in that situation as more and more of your army becomes long range and doesn't care about the screen. And once you become a long range army, you discover you need a screen yourself so that you don't get beat down by the odd close range army, and then you realize that you're now playing guard. As harrower said, this is a core mechanic issue and a giant roadblock to anything melee becoming relevant.

I think it’d be cool if BA could field “jump tactcals” with jump packs and M12" and the Fly rule but also boltguns and special weapons.
Like, literally take the tactical squad entry and add the option to have jump packs.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think it’d be cool if BA could field “jump tactcals” with jump packs and M12" and the Fly rule but also boltguns and special weapons.
Like, literally take the tactical squad entry and add the option to have jump packs.

I was thinking this as well, although I would hesitate to let them have heavy weapons.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think it’d be cool if BA could field “jump tactcals” with jump packs and M12" and the Fly rule but also boltguns and special weapons.
Like, literally take the tactical squad entry and add the option to have jump packs.

That's basically what BA Assault Squads are. They can't take Boltguns though.

Or special weapons. Only special overpriced underperforming pistols.

 theharrower wrote:
There are going to be a lot of disappointed Blood Angels players if we expect our Codex to fix the assault rules. That's a core rulebook problem and beyond what the Codex can fix. I'm sure assault for us will be more viable, but as the sole playstyle for the army it'll never happen unless tweaks to the fight phase are made which isn't coming anytime soon.

Are there any armies that have assault as its "sole playstyle"? Even orkz do a lot of their damage in the psychic phase with weirdboyz. Chaos and Tyranids both have very successful assault units, but play them in a combined arms strategy with shooting backing up the Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers.

It's probably not realistic to expect Blood Angels to be able to simply rush down an army and win purely in the assault phase, but it is quite possible for them to win with the same mixed approach that other "assault" armies are using.

Uh, I thought the progression of most codex chapters was
Scout->Devastator "extra body"->Devastator proper->Assault Marine->Tactical Marine.

So by the logic that "Blood Angels Tacticals train as Assault Marines" EVERY chapter should get both Assault Marines and Devastator squads as troops.

 Melissia wrote:
Or special weapons. Only special overpriced underperforming pistols.

Blood Angels assault squads are able to take Flamers, Plasma Guns, and Meltaguns, in addition to plasma pistols, hand flamers, and inferno pistols, at no restriction on numbers (meaning you can put two special weapons in a 5 man squad with a sergeant armed with a combi-weapon if you want). Our Assault Squads are actually pretty great as far as options go compared to standard 'codex' chapters.

If you opt to remove their jump packs and stick them in a rhino or drop pod then you essentially have a close combat 'tactical squad' with chain swords & bolt pistols, 2x special weapons, but no heavy weapon option. No objective secured either, of course.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
Uh, I thought the progression of most codex chapters was
Scout->Devastator "extra body"->Devastator proper->Assault Marine->Tactical Marine.

So by the logic that "Blood Angels Tacticals train as Assault Marines" EVERY chapter should get both Assault Marines and Devastator squads as troops.

Close, but not quite.
The progression is Scout (10th Co,) -> Assault Marine (Reserve Co.) -> Devastator Marine (Reserve Co.) -> Tactical Marine (Reserve Co.) Then once they've finished their rotation and the need arises (if needed, before they finish), they get moved to a Battle Company as whatever they are specialized at.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
There are going to be a lot of disappointed Blood Angels players if we expect our Codex to fix the assault rules. That's a core rulebook problem and beyond what the Codex can fix. I'm sure assault for us will be more viable, but as the sole playstyle for the army it'll never happen unless tweaks to the fight phase are made which isn't coming anytime soon.

Are there any armies that have assault as its "sole playstyle"? Even orkz do a lot of their damage in the psychic phase with weirdboyz. Chaos and Tyranids both have very successful assault units, but play them in a combined arms strategy with shooting backing up the Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers.

It's probably not realistic to expect Blood Angels to be able to simply rush down an army and win purely in the assault phase, but it is quite possible for them to win with the same mixed approach that other "assault" armies are using.

The only pure 100% Meele No Shooting is Khorne Only Final Destination. And even then, they have some shooting! Blood Angels aren't just meele. They are meele with shooting as support. Black Templars are even more meele focused than Blood Angels.

Personally I think the name of Assault Squads is misleading. Assault Squads aren't for assault. They work like raptors. To carry special weapons and do short-range shooting attacks on the enemy more vulnerable points. And then, if something remains alive, charge it. The proper Assault Marine units are the Vanguard Veterans (Or in the case of Blood Angels, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard)

 Galas wrote:


Black Templars are even more meele focused than Blood Angels.

Can you cite a source for that claim? BA were the loyalist counterparts and rivals of the world eaters, as both were legions specializing in shock assault close combat. Common knowledge of the fluff is that they are both the final word in melee on their respective sides of the heresy. So I'd like to get a source on the claim that BT are more melee focused.

I just wish some rules and traits were leaked...please oh please give us a new mephiston model..so goddanm goofy looking

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think it’d be cool if BA could field “jump tactcals” with jump packs and M12" and the Fly rule but also boltguns and special weapons.
Like, literally take the tactical squad entry and add the option to have jump packs.

I was thinking this as well, although I would hesitate to let them have heavy weapons.

Maybe add an extra rule where if they move more than half rate they get extra -1 to hit with heavy weapons, in addition to the normal penalty for moving at all?
Or block taking heavy weapons at all, I suppose…

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Black Templars are even more meele focused than Blood Angels.

Can you cite a source for that claim? BA were the loyalist counterparts and rivals of the world eaters, as both were legions specializing in shock assault close combat. Common knowledge of the fluff is that they are both the final word in melee on their respective sides of the heresy. So I'd like to get a source on the claim that BT are more melee focused.

Blood Angels where a mix of Emperor Childrens and World Eathers in their legion traits and personality. I see in the Blood Angels a more complex and depth aproach to how they are represented than the Black Templar one of: Always Meele, All the Time and Kill The Witch!
I apologice, I should have add that, it whas in my opinion that Black Templars are even more meele focused than Blood Angels.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or special weapons. Only special overpriced underperforming pistols.

Blood Angels assault squads are able to take Flamers, Plasma Guns, and Meltaguns, in addition to plasma pistols, hand flamers, and inferno pistols, at no restriction on numbers (meaning you can put two special weapons in a 5 man squad with a sergeant armed with a combi-weapon if you want). Our Assault Squads are actually pretty great as far as options go compared to standard 'codex' chapters.

If you opt to remove their jump packs and stick them in a rhino or drop pod then you essentially have a close combat 'tactical squad' with chain swords & bolt pistols, 2x special weapons, but no heavy weapon option. No objective secured either, of course.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
Uh, I thought the progression of most codex chapters was
Scout->Devastator "extra body"->Devastator proper->Assault Marine->Tactical Marine.

So by the logic that "Blood Angels Tacticals train as Assault Marines" EVERY chapter should get both Assault Marines and Devastator squads as troops.

Close, but not quite.
The progression is Scout (10th Co,) -> Assault Marine (Reserve Co.) -> Devastator Marine (Reserve Co.) -> Tactical Marine (Reserve Co.) Then once they've finished their rotation and the need arises (if needed, before they finish), they get moved to a Battle Company as whatever they are specialized at.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

No, it's Scout - Dev Spotter (to let them get used to the Power Armour) - Dev - Assault Marine - Tactical Reserves (one of the reserves focuses on Bikes, the other on Land Speeders) - then into the Battle Companies.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
I really don't think that the rate at which casualties are refilled in a marine army determines what their main stay force is.
Like, they still follow the codex astartes in large. And the codex still says 'use more tacticals than other things guys."
Now, you could state that its as a consequence of their unique preferences for lightning assaults. But the outrider detachment has that covered, as I doubt any space marine commander is going to waste precious mobile units as guard dogs.
A blood angel commander would be much more in character abandoning the objective (or leaving only a basic complement) and pushing on to other weak spots.
And to me, that just doesn't ring "Assault Marines with objective secured."

I think you missed the part where the assault marines covering an objective might BE tacticals. Just with their jump packs on.

I'm just correcting the common misconception that the reason they were troops at one time was because they had more. The codex that had them as troops directly says that is NOT the case, but at the same time they effectively DO have more because EVERYONE who isn't a scout is a potential assault marine.

Which is fascinating because Blood Angels assault Marines get a lot better loadout options than their Tactical Marines.

Well, BA Tacticals can go tri-Flamer, which is a neat trick. Too bad they take a long time to get where they will actually be effective.

Honestly, I would love to see BA be able to move their Transports and disembark after the movement.

Another damn week of waiting.
I can't belive that almost everyone else get their basic rules before Dark/Blood angels!
That's just mean.
No rumors, no sneakpeaks and even then nothing set in stone - The BA codex may delay or be after Dark angels.

Did anyone else realize the irony of red and green marines being released for Christmas?

Whole lot of Assault Marine wishful thinking here

I’d be extremely surprised if Assault Squads became troops or gained obsec (extremely extremely surprised).

As for the “deep strike within 9 inches”, good luck. If they did gain the ability to, they’d almost certainly get a restriction like the Mawloc – i.e no charge after. Plus, I’d personally expect that ability to be given more to Raven Guard than Blood Angels due to their whole “decapitating strike” doctrine etc. Blood Angels, to me, have always been more around the “controlled” ferocity of melee combat and a sense of duty and honour.

I can see them getting most of the main Space Marine stratagems, along with a couple of extras focused on melee and charge distances. They’d also likely get something for Death Company, the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal Predators.

 Jidmah wrote:
Did anyone else realize the irony of red and green marines being released for Christmas?

Maybe there will be a special limited edition Santa Claus Dante model ?

 Omega-soul wrote:
Another damn week of waiting.
I can't belive that almost everyone else get their basic rules before Dark/Blood angels!
That's just mean.
No rumors, no sneakpeaks and even then nothing set in stone - The BA codex may delay or be after Dark angels.

Well they are after most MARINE dexes I guess - its such a disaster that other non marine factions delayed the release of yet another Marine dex to match the other 6 or 7 that will already be out by then.

Not like there are other armies that need them or anything. Yeah they get something in the Chapter Approved book - along with guess what more Marine stuff.

Blood Angels until their Space Wolf style flanderisation were very codex adherent, with the removal of the flaws in the BA Primaris be interesting to see what elements fade and which they keep. The entire Chapter needs to be rebuilt (again) so there is a whole opportunity there.

Also for me interested to see what coverage (if any) the successor Chapters get - this would be much more interesting to me than yet more bloody blood units/weapons etc.

A post Primaris update should be interesting - what actually happened to all the non Blood Angels (including Successors, Guard, Sisters, Navy) at Baal - is just them who survived?

There is a lot they could do with this Codex.

 niv-mizzet wrote:


On the topic of in-game performance, I'd love for traditional BA with a focus on jump packs and assaults to be good, but they would need some way to mitigate cheap enemy screen units, which hard-counter close-range and assault lists in the current game. Perhaps if they caused an extra morale test on any squad that they charged that would help them get past the screens faster, or if they had a strat for a squad to do a precision landing instead of staying 9" away so they could actually put some damage on the really important enemy units that usually sit behind the screens shooting or smiting in safety.

Alternatively, a way to be able to assault in a turn they fell back? (having FLY they can shoot, but IIRC cannot assault, but if they could effectively fly over the heads of the bubblewrap unit to get to the stuff behind.... (problem is that takes 2 turns, and the enemy can just fall back from combat on their turn to let the shooty things shoot you anyway...))

At this point I just want to know a release date. Waiting every week for warhammer community to announce other things...brutal. On a positive note with Chapter Approved releasing first I suppose we will have properly priced points without needing to reference two books.

I wouldn't assume that. Publishing a Hardback Codex probably takes longer than publishing a softback that I expect Chapter Approved to be. That means GW would have time to change the values between going to press.

It might be a nice way to get through good screen units if they brought back blender claws on the dreads. There definitely needs to be things in the game that start showing up to make armies with access to them at least consider not auto-taking the best wounds per point screen units.

 alextroy wrote:
I wouldn't assume that. Publishing a Hardback Codex probably takes longer than publishing a softback that I expect Chapter Approved to be. That means GW would have time to change the values between going to press.

Frankly, that would be infuriating.