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Made in us
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40k doesn't even use targeting computers.

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Lockouts don't work for decrypting files that have been transmitted, for example - you have no control over their attempt count. Lockouts can stop them from gaining control of systems directly, but they can't stop anything.

Also:

"Crystal Targetting Matrix".

Anything that "locks on" or tracks (SM Stalker, was it?) is a computer.

Tau drones.

40k does use computers, they just aren't used as often as a realistic situation would, and aren't as preeminent even when used.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

 Vaktathi wrote:
Such an ability to just brainhack stuff does not appear to be particularly widespread, thats not something that is presented as a typical Techmarine ability, nor are the Soul Drinkers a typical chapter. There is also a huge difference between breaking one system that you already know has what you want (and im assuming have physical access to) and retrieving its information, and doing so remotely to hundreds of millions of interconnected systems, finding the ones you need (they wont be advertising themselves, youd have to do that through analysis of traffic patterns), understanding the principles they operate on and the structure they are built around, with gobs of varied security mechanics from gobs of different designers, and then actually sorting and analyzing the retrieved data.

One can look at something like Wikileaks, they get huge amounts of data all in one lump sum, but take weeks and months and years to actually piece together what they have. And thats with people who live and breathe this worlds subjective nuances, and even huge amounts of that data isnt always decipherable.

More to the point, when you look at hacking, what actually typically works? Hacking the people, not the systems. Trying to defeat the systems is, in most instances, impossible or near enough so, simply because understanding them from without is often impossible without insane resources and huge time investments. Looking at simply our product information databases here at work, assuming you could gain access and knew that the servers existed and could be found here and could differentiate them from other servers that make the business run, you wouldnt know data is or how its organized or how its interconnected and linked or how its used, making it largely useless. I could just give the raw data to 99.999% of people and they'd never figure out what any of it is or means, and thats without any additional encryption or attempts to mask the data at all.

How do large, competently secured systems get broken into? Typically by getting someone familiar with the systems to introduce something from the back end, behind security, knowingly or unknowingly (phishing, etc) and then either spending gobs of time analyzing the data or having someone who is familiar with it do so.


what makes you think its not a normal Techmarine ability, my FFG Deathwatch book seems to think it is, any Techmarine can access it, also up to that point the Soul Drinkers were basically a Codex compliant chapter, so what makes you think there techmarines have any special abilities outside the norm?

Fact is that they have been shown to have the ability to wire themselves into a system and use psudo science mumbo jumbo to hack it using there brains as a super computer, that means.... the can hack it, what they do with the info after is up for debate sure, but they can do it, that is not up for debate, you may not like it but its there, not to mention like i said before, this planet is not secure when it comes to letting others know where all our gucci stuff is, like capital buildings and govermental structure, we literally advertise it to the whole universe, one only needs to listen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k doesn't even use targeting computers.


Yes it does, they are shown very often in many novels, so what on earth are you talking about???

Space marine helmets have them

So do the tanks, or do you think the Machine spirit just fires blindly?

Tau

NECRONS ARE LITERALLY TARGETING COMPUTERS... haha, that actually makes me laugh.

Jesus even ORKS have been shown to have them.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Most of modern crypto is based on asymetric calculations. Most crypto knows that if you vastly outscale the processing capabilities of the system, you can crack it trivially.
there are often safeguards against this, account lockouts (e.g. after 3 failed attempts) for example being the most trivial. One might be able to overwhelm and shut such systems down, but there are highly effective methods of preventing brute force attacks form gaining access to data.



So if they have any goolgle-htz processors, they don't need any fancy hacking to break into stuff. They can just brute-force decrypt it.
Assuming no other safeguards? Sure, but at the same time 40k is not presented as a setting where computers are often used in such a manner, the setting often deliberatley keeps them simple, and mass hacking of planetary electronic networks isnt something ever displayed by a faction in 40k really that I can recall, particularly as any sort of information acquisition technique as opposed to simply attempting to break stuff and sow confusion (e.g. scrapcode infections).


Vanus Temple of the Imperial Assassins.

Vanus Temple - Almost nothing of the Vanus Temple is known beyond its name and the fact of its existence (though the High Gothic word "Vanus" means "Empty"). The Vanus Assassins are primarily used as intelligence-gatherers and in matters of grand strategy and intelligence tactics they are without peer, their political insight unparalleled by the savants of the Imperium. The Vanus Temple works to engineer their mark's doom via their consummate command of information. The Vanus Temple wages a far more complex war, taking the art of the stealth kill to the next level. Their modus operandi is to learn everything possible about not only their target but also those closest to him, then to tacitly manipulate circumstances so that their mark's death is brought about by his own folly or -- preferably -- by the hand of a once-trusted friend or comrade. It is the Vanus Temple that the Imperium employs when the revelation of a prominent figure's heresy would cause more damage than the knowledge of the resultant retribution. Many a shining saint or vaunted figurehead has met with premature martyrdom after some secret heresy has reached the ears of the Vanus. Perhaps the best summary of the Vanus Temple's philosophy was stated by Fon Tariel, an infocyte of Clade Vanus, the Vanus Temple's precursor, during the terrible civil war and intrigues of the Horus Heresy: "the cleanest kill is one that another performs in your stead with no knowledge of your incitement."

They have been known to use Nanomachines as information warfare tech, one even described hacking the elevator system to kill an target so it looked like an accident, they are pretty cool.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:25:17


   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




 Vaktathi wrote:
To put stuff in context, 40k is a Fantasy setting with a SciFi skin, when you introduce the real world, they all break down quickly.

Barring orbital bombardment, most factions would fare...poorly against modern armies. Space Marines, while powerful, and hilariously limited in number and are vulnerable to common real world weapons as shown countless times in the fluff. For all their technomagic, the Eldar have nothing like long range radsr or GPS guided artillery or BVR anti aircraft weapons. The Guard are incomprehensibly organized and a Russ Tank physically couldnr work in real life (the breech of the gun take up the entire turret, even in FW drawings, theres no room for crew or ammo), etc ad nauseum. A real world tank can roll over rough ground at highway speeds and hit another tank moving at highway speeds at night more than 90% of the time with rounds that can penetrate a meter or more of solid armor, no 40k faction boasts anything like that capability, on the table or in the fluff.

A Space Marine chapter would be quickly isolated and destroyed in detail with a maximum of a thousand warriors. Thirty Regiments of Imperial Guard would be fewer troops than were engaged in the Gulf war and with dramatically less impressive capabilities.

The real world would roll over most 40k factions extremely easily. 40k factions, at their most advanced, work like WW2 armies with SciFi paintjobs, many are far more primitive. They work in a Fantasy universe, but not when the real world is applied.


 Galas wrote:

The Lasgun a Guardsmen carries can be overcharged to destroy one of our tanks in a single shoot. The weapons in warhammer40k are so Overpowered we can't even compete with their most basic weaponry.
...wat? Since when is a Lasgun even remotely capable of such a feat...? Where is this coming from?


Just because youve never heard of it in the fluff, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. How did the eldar become an intergalactic empire without ever having any GPS equicalent either in the past or the present? RADAR wouldnt hope to detect any of their stealthcraft.

... why do you even read about Scifi or 40k with such close-mindedness?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont understand how this thread got so large... we dont stand any chance


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, modern day Earth would just be one of the million worlds in the Imperium. Its no different from any other planet Guard Regiments fight to squash a rebellion in every other day or a random world in the path of a hive fleet. Its seriously mind boggling to me that people think major 40k factions have no effective counter against our modern arsenal, etc

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 22:11:29


123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
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On moon miranda.

Bharring wrote:
Lockouts don't work for decrypting files that have been transmitted, for example - you have no control over their attempt count.
Sure, but then you run into issues that billions of devices are transmitting, you dont know what is sending what, and even if you break any encryption, you don't necessarily have any idea of what youre actually seeing. Just because you can intercept a digital television signal for instance doesnt mean you can automatically make sense of it to display audio and video (thats why we have things like codecs), or even necessarily know that it *is* audio/visual information.



 Formosa wrote:


what makes you think its not a normal Techmarine ability
the fact that its not displayed or represented in the overwhelming majority of GW fluff or rules?

my FFG Deathwatch book seems to think it is, any Techmarine can access it,
Yeah, they also started out making basic SM bolters more powerful than vehicle mounted IG heavy bolters, and a basic Astartes character is literally 100% totally immune to most small arms without making use of horde mechanics

Which ability are we referring to specifically here? I dont have my book on me to check on stuff.

That said, in general FFG's RPG's rolls a huge number of wildly disparate things into a couple of skills that apply for everything for the sake of playability. Everything from fixing a space heater or restringing a crossbow to reengineering a voidships Gellar fields is just a "tech use" roll with a different difficulty modifier. Picking a doorlock in a hab complex and bypassing the cogitator-sentinels of a forbidden Mechanicus weapons lab are both just "security" rolls


also up to that point the Soul Drinkers were basically a Codex compliant chapter, so what makes you think there techmarines have any special abilities outside the norm?
the fact that its displayed almost nowhere else.


Fact is that they have been shown to have the ability to wire themselves into a system and use psudo science mumbo jumbo to hack it using there brains as a super computer, that means.... the can hack it, what they do with the info after is up for debate sure, but they can do it, that is not up for debate,
only if we cherry pick out of the ordinary examples that dont appear to be apparent in thousands of other situations where such could have been utilized to great effect. It does not appear to be something routinely and widely available in most instances.


you may not like it but its there, not to mention like i said before, this planet is not secure when it comes to letting others know where all our gucci stuff is, like capital buildings and govermental structure, we literally advertise it to the whole universe, one only needs to listen.
Even if we accept that, you'd need years of education and learning to decipher that information.

Thats why just to be considered a barely functioning member of society in developed nations we put even the lowest common denominators through a dozen or more years of school and training simply to exist and sustain oneself in a culture and civilization we're already immersed in 24/7. Even then, how many people are challenged by the most trivial of history, geography, politics, and science questions? What do you do when you dont know what a China is or when Microsofts are or how a Rasputin works or who Tubes your You?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k doesn't even use targeting computers.


Yes it does, they are shown very often in many novels, so what on earth are you talking about???

Space marine helmets have them
sort of? Rather frustratinglt these are depicted as being everything from basically just simple night vision to almost Irom Man style digital assistants and everything in between.


So do the tanks, or do you think the Machine spirit just fires blindly?
such are rare enough to be restricted to only the most valuable and rare of vehicles like Land Raiders. Firing computers of the kind seen on a modern MBT are extremely rare in 40k.



Jesus even ORKS have been shown to have them.....
not as any sort of common and widely deployed kit on things like tank guns.





Vanus Temple of the Imperial Assassins.

Vanus Temple - Almost nothing of the Vanus Temple is known beyond its name and the fact of its existence (though the High Gothic word "Vanus" means "Empty"). The Vanus Assassins are primarily used as intelligence-gatherers and in matters of grand strategy and intelligence tactics they are without peer, their political insight unparalleled by the savants of the Imperium. The Vanus Temple works to engineer their mark's doom via their consummate command of information. The Vanus Temple wages a far more complex war, taking the art of the stealth kill to the next level. Their modus operandi is to learn everything possible about not only their target but also those closest to him, then to tacitly manipulate circumstances so that their mark's death is brought about by his own folly or -- preferably -- by the hand of a once-trusted friend or comrade. It is the Vanus Temple that the Imperium employs when the revelation of a prominent figure's heresy would cause more damage than the knowledge of the resultant retribution. Many a shining saint or vaunted figurehead has met with premature martyrdom after some secret heresy has reached the ears of the Vanus. Perhaps the best summary of the Vanus Temple's philosophy was stated by Fon Tariel, an infocyte of Clade Vanus, the Vanus Temple's precursor, during the terrible civil war and intrigues of the Horus Heresy: "the cleanest kill is one that another performs in your stead with no knowledge of your incitement."

They have been known to use Nanomachines as information warfare tech, one even described hacking the elevator system to kill an target so it looked like an accident, they are pretty cool.
that sounds like something far more appropriate and applicable to these situations to be sure. That said, they appear to be mentioned only very rarely in 40k fluff, I wasnt even aware of their existence beyond a single brief mention and Ive been in this hobby for many many years and editions

123ply wrote:

Just because youve never heard of it in the fluff, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
it doesn't mean it does either. We cant debate something if it hasnt been shown to exist in the universe. We certainly cannot assume its existence.


How did the eldar become an intergalactic empire without ever having any GPS equicalent either in the past or the present?
who knows, its part of why 40k breaks down rapidly once realism is brought in (as would be necessary in any comparison to the real world). Again, 40k is a Tolkienesque fantasy universe with a Scifi texture pack far more than it is real scifi.

RADAR wouldnt hope to detect any of their stealthcraft.
what stealthcraft are the Eldar running around in? Wave Serpents, Nightwings, Crimsom Hunters, Vampires, Falcons, etc are not stealth aircraft/vehicles.


... why do you even read about Scifi or 40k with such close-mindedness?
Because im not constantly comparing it to the real world all the time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont understand how this thread got so large... we dont stand any chance
I would argue you are not paying attention to the arguments in that case


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, modern day Earth would just be one of the million worlds in the Imperium. Its no different from any other planet Guard Regiments fight to squash a rebellion in every other day or a random world in the path of a hive fleet. Its seriously mind boggling to me that people think major 40k factions have no effective counter against our modern arsenal, etc
Again, this is mostly because 40k is primarily a fantasy universe. Even the more advanced stuff like aircraft typically fights much more along the lines of WW2 era counterparts than modern day equivalents. We were also given specific forces by the OP to judge, and not broadly considering the full massed might of something like all the billions of IG regiments combined or the like.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 22:32:06


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Norwich

 Vaktathi wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Lockouts don't work for decrypting files that have been transmitted, for example - you have no control over their attempt count.
Sure, but then you run into issues that billions of devices are transmitting, you dont know what is sending what, and even if you break any encryption, you don't necessarily have any idea of what youre actually seeing. Just because you can intercept a digital television signal for instance doesnt mean you can automatically make sense of it to display audio and video (thats why we have things like codecs), or even necessarily know that it *is* audio/visual information.



 Formosa wrote:


what makes you think its not a normal Techmarine ability
the fact that its not displayed or represented in the overwhelming majority of GW fluff or rules?

my FFG Deathwatch book seems to think it is, any Techmarine can access it,
Yeah, they also started out making basic SM bolters more powerful than vehicle mounted IG heavy bolters, and a basic Astartes character is literally 100% totally immune to most small arms without making use of horde mechanics

Which ability are we referring to specifically here? I dont have my book on me to check on stuff.

That said, in general FFG's RPG's rolls a huge number of wildly disparate things into a couple of skills that apply for everything for the sake of playability. Everything from fixing a space heater or restringing a crossbow to reengineering a voidships Gellar fields is just a "tech use" roll with a different difficulty modifier. Picking a doorlock in a hab complex and bypassing the cogitator-sentinels of a forbidden Mechanicus weapons lab are both just "security" rolls


also up to that point the Soul Drinkers were basically a Codex compliant chapter, so what makes you think there techmarines have any special abilities outside the norm?
the fact that its displayed almost nowhere else.


Fact is that they have been shown to have the ability to wire themselves into a system and use psudo science mumbo jumbo to hack it using there brains as a super computer, that means.... the can hack it, what they do with the info after is up for debate sure, but they can do it, that is not up for debate,
only if we cherry pick out of the ordinary examples that dont appear to be apparent in thousands of other situations where such could have been utilized to great effect. It does not appear to be something routinely and widely available in most instances.


you may not like it but its there, not to mention like i said before, this planet is not secure when it comes to letting others know where all our gucci stuff is, like capital buildings and govermental structure, we literally advertise it to the whole universe, one only needs to listen.
Even if we accept that, you'd need years of education and learning to decipher that information.

Thats why just to be considered a barely functioning member of society in developed nations we put even the lowest common denominators through a dozen or more years of school and training simply to exist and sustain oneself in a culture and civilization we're already immersed in 24/7. Even then, how many people are challenged by the most trivial of history, geography, politics, and science questions? What do you do when you dont know what a China is or when Microsofts are or how a Rasputin works or who Tubes your You?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k doesn't even use targeting computers.


Yes it does, they are shown very often in many novels, so what on earth are you talking about???

Space marine helmets have them
sort of? Rather frustratinglt these are depicted as being everything from basically just simple night vision to almost Irom Man style digital assistants and everything in between.


So do the tanks, or do you think the Machine spirit just fires blindly?
such are rare enough to be restricted to only the most valuable and rare of vehicles like Land Raiders. Firing computers of the kind seen on a modern MBT are extremely rare in 40k.



Jesus even ORKS have been shown to have them.....
not as any sort of common and widely deployed kit on things like tank guns.





Vanus Temple of the Imperial Assassins.

Vanus Temple - Almost nothing of the Vanus Temple is known beyond its name and the fact of its existence (though the High Gothic word "Vanus" means "Empty"). The Vanus Assassins are primarily used as intelligence-gatherers and in matters of grand strategy and intelligence tactics they are without peer, their political insight unparalleled by the savants of the Imperium. The Vanus Temple works to engineer their mark's doom via their consummate command of information. The Vanus Temple wages a far more complex war, taking the art of the stealth kill to the next level. Their modus operandi is to learn everything possible about not only their target but also those closest to him, then to tacitly manipulate circumstances so that their mark's death is brought about by his own folly or -- preferably -- by the hand of a once-trusted friend or comrade. It is the Vanus Temple that the Imperium employs when the revelation of a prominent figure's heresy would cause more damage than the knowledge of the resultant retribution. Many a shining saint or vaunted figurehead has met with premature martyrdom after some secret heresy has reached the ears of the Vanus. Perhaps the best summary of the Vanus Temple's philosophy was stated by Fon Tariel, an infocyte of Clade Vanus, the Vanus Temple's precursor, during the terrible civil war and intrigues of the Horus Heresy: "the cleanest kill is one that another performs in your stead with no knowledge of your incitement."

They have been known to use Nanomachines as information warfare tech, one even described hacking the elevator system to kill an target so it looked like an accident, they are pretty cool.
that sounds like something far more appropriate and applicable to these situations to be sure. That said, they appear to be mentioned only very rarely in 40k fluff, I wasnt even aware of their existence beyond a single brief mention and Ive been in this hobby for many many years and editions

123ply wrote:

Just because youve never heard of it in the fluff, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
it doesn't mean it does either. We cant debate something if it hasnt been shown to exist in the universe. We certainly cannot assume its existence.


How did the eldar become an intergalactic empire without ever having any GPS equicalent either in the past or the present?
who knows, its part of why 40k breaks down rapidly once realism is brought in (as would be necessary in any comparison to the real world). Again, 40k is a Tolkienesque fantasy universe with a Scifi texture pack far more than it is real scifi.

RADAR wouldnt hope to detect any of their stealthcraft.
what stealthcraft are the Eldar running around in? Wave Serpents, Nightwings, Crimsom Hunters, Vampires, Falcons, etc are not stealth aircraft/vehicles.


... why do you even read about Scifi or 40k with such close-mindedness?
Because im not constantly comparing it to the real world all the time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont understand how this thread got so large... we dont stand any chance
I would argue you are not paying attention to the arguments in that case


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, modern day Earth would just be one of the million worlds in the Imperium. Its no different from any other planet Guard Regiments fight to squash a rebellion in every other day or a random world in the path of a hive fleet. Its seriously mind boggling to me that people think major 40k factions have no effective counter against our modern arsenal, etc
Again, this is mostly because 40k is primarily a fantasy universe. Even the more advanced stuff like aircraft typically fights much more along the lines of WW2 era counterparts than modern day equivalents. We were also given specific forces by the OP to judge, and not broadly considering the full massed might of something like all the billions of IG regiments combined or the like.


Still not sure how you are debating the techmarine thing, they have the ability thats a fact, all that other stuff is simply a role play mechanic, the chance at hacking a door is utterly different than the chance of fix a gellar field, the "skill" and how it is used is down to the situation, not to mention the skills of saving data techmarines get etc. its all there, like it or not.

as for the soul drinkers stuff, it is displayed elsewhere, your just not aware of it, which brings us to

The Vanus temple, by your logic so far because you were not aware of it, means it doesnt exist.

My example of a land raider was just an example, every marine tank and likely imperial tank has targeting equipment, as others have told you, just because you dont hear about it, doenst mean its not there, for example did you know some chapters literally hard wire themselves into said tanks? in addition, honestly do you also think that the STC wouldnt have given them night fighting and targeting computer technology? thats quite some leap of logic. In addition, they may not be as common to the TEEMING TRILLIONS OF ORKS, but that gear outnumbers our planets population many times over.

yet another asumption you have made that doesnt gell with the 40k fluff, it would not take years to learn our systems of government, they have similar or identical ones in 40k, this planet is nothing special in that universe, and yes the Vanus temple has been mentioned rarely since 2nd but there is a book that shows a lot of what they can do, Nemesis, if you havent read it, its pretty decent, not amazing, but worth the read, anyway, its just another example of "just because its not mentioned"

Yes, yes we can assume somethings existence "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" that debate however has been going on forever, you see here is where you are breaking down, not the setting, if we bring our world into theres, then all there rules apply, no matter how much you dont like it or claim "it dont work", a marine is walking tank that DOES shrug off small arms fire like rain, but on the flip side, if we bring them into our world, then all the same real world rules also apply, thus they would have encountered the same or similar real world problems and adapted as needed, so beyond line of sight targeting etc. you need to decide which your talking about and let us know.

All Eldar vehicles are stealthcraft, several novels have small scale eldar craft having somthing similar to holo fields, this part is conjecture based on a couple of novels, but I think that Wraithbone has some sort of natural radar disruption, god knows how that works.

Also you need to drop the WW1/WW2 nonsense, just because we have seen some guard fight like this, doesnt mean they all do, Taros campaign for example had them behaving pretty much identically to a modern day force (best part of that book was the after action reports... amazing book), even had vanquishers engaging hammerheads beyond the horizan and whilst moving.... a flying tank that does 160 KPH, got to at least admit thats cool, oh and before you say "yeah but thats like that one time" STC remember, all guard tanks are built the same, then likely modified after by the crews.


   
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SoCal, USA!

Bharring wrote:
Lockouts don't work for decrypting files that have been transmitted, for example - you have no control over their attempt count. Lockouts can stop them from gaining control of systems directly, but they can't stop anything.

Also:

"Crystal Targetting Matrix".

Anything that "locks on" or tracks (SM Stalker, was it?) is a computer.

Tau drones.

40k does use computers, they just aren't used as often as a realistic situation would, and aren't as preeminent even when used.


You're aware that, to a 40k Space Marine, a $10 laser sight is a "targeting computer".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Formosa wrote:
a marine is walking tank that DOES shrug off small arms fire like rain,


A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 00:54:46


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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k doesn't even use targeting computers.




They do. They just use archaic sounding names for them. "Logic engine", "Augury", "Auspex", "Machine Spirit" etc. Imperial tanks, like the Baneblade, also have laser rangefinders and neural interfaces. On some machines, Servitors counts as a type of biological targeting computer (i.e. Stalker, Hunter, etc).
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Lockouts don't work for decrypting files that have been transmitted, for example - you have no control over their attempt count. Lockouts can stop them from gaining control of systems directly, but they can't stop anything.

Also:

"Crystal Targetting Matrix".

Anything that "locks on" or tracks (SM Stalker, was it?) is a computer.

Tau drones.

40k does use computers, they just aren't used as often as a realistic situation would, and aren't as preeminent even when used.


You're aware that, to a 40k Space Marine, a $10 laser sight is a "targeting computer".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Formosa wrote:
a marine is walking tank that DOES shrug off small arms fire like rain,


A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.


Nope, fluff says he does not, very rare cases occur, for example a marine took a spear in the neck and died, by your logic all we need is spears to win!!!!

If you are talking about TT, then leave it out of this FLUFF discussion....

As for the marines helm:

Auto-senses - A Space Marine's helmet contains most of his armour's combat systems, all of which are referred to by one title -- Auto-senses.
These include thought-activated comm-augers and audio-filters, targeting reticules and range finders, tactical displays and Auspex-links, and a host of other features that further enhance the Space Marine's already superhuman senses.
Photolenses -

The photolenses are the reinforced eye guards in the helmet that protect the Space Marine from dazzling light bursts. They also allow him to see into the infrared and ultraviolet ranges, as well as enabling vision in low-light conditions.

Respirator Vox Grill - The Vox grill can amplify a Space Marine's battle cries to deafening volumes. It also contains a respirator to filter out toxins and can be shut off with a thought, drawing instead upon an internal oxygen supply.

And its armour:

MARK VII POWER ARMOUR - The Space Marine depicted to the right wears a suit of Mark VII Power Armour, sometimes called "Armorum Impetor" or "Aquila Armour", although with this particular set depicted here the Chapter Artificers have replaced the breastplate with one converted to fit from an older suit of Mark V Heresy Pattern armour, with the reintegration of the chest Aquila and the suit's power cables relocated to the interior. All of the marks of Space Marine Power Armour have many variants. Some do not contain all of the original features of that design, while others, as in this case, utilise parts recovered from older marks of armour. Power Armour is usually personalised by each Space Marine who wears it and is always revered as a sacred relic of the Chapter. Suits or parts of suits can be ancient, dating all the way back to the time of the Great Crusade or the Horus Heresy, and are often reused many times. Like all Power Armour, the suit depicted here contains an exoskeletal array of actuators and fibre bundles which replicate the muscular commands via a cybernetic neuronal interface that literally plugs into the wearer's spinal column through the Astartes gene-seed organ implant known as the Black Carapace to his central nervous system. Through this interface, the heavy armour becomes a literal part of the wearer and responds to his movements and mind-impulse controls without adding any encumbrance, despite the armour's weight when inert. Whilst appearing heavy and unwieldy, this Space Marine will experience little weight gain and retains almost his full array of unarmoured movement and agility. The muscle fibre bundles and actuators actually increase the already considerable genetically-enhanced strength of the wearer, allowing him to lift heavier loads or jump greater distances than when not wearing the suit. The outer, armoured layer of this armour consists of shaped Adamantium and Plasteel plates, encased in a Ceramite ablative layer. The armour is shaped to deflect as well as to absorb the energy of incoming blows. The shoulder plates of this suit contain small, auto-responsive plates which burst outwards in a micro-explosion to counteract the energy of an incoming attack and prevent penetration. Beneath the armoured protection lies the internal workings of the suit's life support and combat systems. The armour contains numerous life support systems. The lower back holds a liquid high-protein food store, which when combined with the Space Marine's genetically-enhanced metabolism produces no waste and keeps a Space Marine's body functioning without the need for any other nourishment. During combat, there is no need for this Astartes to stop to eat or drink as the suit provides all of his needed nutrition and hydration. The suit also has its own back-up power supply and a solar array to recharge this supply, meaning the suit can continue to operate for a short time without its backpack. The suit contains a de-tox injector with five doses and a biomedical Cogitator system that can determine when the injector's potent cocktail of stimulants and cellular regenerators is needed. These will counteract the effects of most common poisons and other toxins. The injector can also be used for stimulants and, in contravention of Codex Astartes proscriptions, some Chapters have used it to administer combat drugs. The palm of the gauntlets contain sensors to read information from the weapons held in the hands and to pass genetic identification codes to the weapons. Without the proper code, a Space Marine's Bolter or other weapon will not function. The soles of the boots are magnetic, as well as being constructed of a micropore adherent compound, meaning a Space Marine will not slip on even the slickest of surfaces or in zero-gravity. The magnetic function can be turned off or on as needed by the Astartes through his mind-impulse link with the suit.

BACKPACK - The main power source for the suit of Power Armour is located in the suit's backpack. This highly-efficient sub-atomic microfusion reactor core provides the power for all internal systems. The suit does contain a reserve power supply and a back-up micro-solar panel array in case of emergencies. The reserve power source can be recharged via the solar panel, and when fully charged should provide enough power to last for a standard month (as long as all non-vital systems are disabled) without the need for major maintenance or resupply. Thermal waste dissipators form the characteristic nozzles on either side of the backpack. This thermal waste can also be used for limited maneuvering in zero-gravity. The backpack also contains the suit's supply of oxygen and air purification system that allows the wearer to breath in toxic or vacuum environments. Combined with the Space Marine's own Multi-lung organ implant, the wearer can operate unhindered in any atmosphere, as well as underwater and in hard vacuum. Air intakes are also located on the backpack. The lower part of the backpack is the armour's temperature regulation system. In combat, with the suit functioning at maximum capacity, heat can build up quite rapidly. Settings for heat control can be adjusted depending upon the environment the suit is operating in, obviously retaining more heat in frigid conditions or the -278 degrees centigrade environment of deep space than in tropical or desert conditions. In planetary environments, the suit's internal Cogitator will always optimise conditions to match the world's mean average temperature. Within the armour, the wearer will experience only minor temperature fluctuations as the suit maintains the correct temperature to keep the Space Marine operating at peak physical efficiency in any environment.

And again its Helm

HELMET - This Space Marine's upgraded Mark VII helmet contains most of the suit's actual combat-related systems. All of these helmet Augur and Auspex sensor and diagnostic systems are referred to by a single term -- Auto-senses. Features include the primary, thought-activated, Vox-link. This Space Marine's helmet also has an additional Vox-booster and scrambler attachment, intended to block enemy attempts to intercept Imperial communications channels. The right eye also includes a range-finder, targeter and target recognition friend or foe upgrade to the helmet's basic suite of Auto-senses. Such equipment is most common in Devastator Squads, but is not limited to them. The visor displays tactical information. This includes maps of a given area, waypoint markers, a compass, as well as called-up data on the Astartes' own weapon, passed through the weapon's grip and the palm of the gauntlet. Primarily this data would include an ammunition counter display, but also gives emergency warnings about overheating and weapon jams. This helmet also incorporates visual magnification up to x4, which when combined with the wearer's Occulobe organ implant means a Space Marine can see clearly in most combat conditions. The visor also includes basic infrared scanning and night vision capabilities. Through his Auto-senses, the Space Marine can access full diagnostic information on the armour's operating status and absorb data about the external environment, such as atmospheric composition, barometric pressure, the presence of harmful chemicals and toxins, etc. Diagnostic sensors are positioned in various places on the suit to scan for such information. The helmet can also display biological information about the Space Marine himself, including heart rate (for both hearts as Astartes possess two), blood pressure, toxin levels, the workings of the Larraman's Organ or Oolitic Kidney implants, and assessments of the degree of physiological damage caused by wounds. These bio-status read-outs can also be broadcast via Vox to Space Marine command units for monitoring during battle and training. As well as containing the suit's communications array, the helmet's ear pieces screen the wearer from sonic attacks and includes amplifiers to the Space Marine's Lyman's Ear implant, giving sharper hearing and allowing the Space Marine to filter out or enhance specific sounds. The Lyman's Ear also means a Space Marine is unlikely to become dizzy or disorientated, even when hit by strong blast waves. The grill on the helmet contains a microphone, allowing the wearer to talk normally through the helmet or amplify his voice over a short distance, which is sometimes useful during the din of battle. If the external environment is conducive to human life, the grill can open to allow the wearer to breath the ambient atmosphere rather than use the air purification equipment or the suit's internal air supply. Finally, the helmet visor incorporates an auto-reactive photochromatic visor that protects the wearer from light level changes, dimming or blacking out completely should the wearer be exposed to sudden, dazzling light.

All Official publication material, so you are flat wrong in regards to a marines targeting equipment, survivability and durability,

   
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SoCal, USA!

 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.


Nope, fluff says he does not,

If you are talking about TT, then leave it out of this FLUFF discussion....


According to the Fluff, SMs can't even beat the Tau, who have no HtH capability whatsoever. And the Fists were stupid enough to die to a man in the Iron Cage. SMs are dumb as rocks and useless against fishmen who can't even use a stick.

SMs are a Worf army, and would be auto-curbstomped by Earth's current Dark Age of Technology weaponry.


-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
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All those targeting do-dads and they still hit about as well as a Veteran Guardsman

M.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
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SoCal, USA!

 Infantryman wrote:
All those targeting do-dads and they still hit about as well as a Veteran Guardsman

M.


That's why I say that a 40k "targeting computer" is nothing more than a laser dot.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in us
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According to the Deathwing game, you don't even need tech-marines to hack, the average Terminator can do it remotely with the tech in their armor.

Also seems like a ton of these folks talking crap about 40k tech aren't really looking at the actually fluff, more at the table top stats and extrapolating from them. I mean the deathstrike is an ICBM with a nuke attached according to the fluff but when you look at the tabletop stats they are severely underwhelming.

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
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Norwich

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.


Nope, fluff says he does not,

If you are talking about TT, then leave it out of this FLUFF discussion....


According to the Fluff, SMs can't even beat the Tau, who have no HtH capability whatsoever. And the Fists were stupid enough to die to a man in the Iron Cage. SMs are dumb as rocks and useless against fishmen who can't even use a stick.

SMs are a Worf army, and would be auto-curbstomped by Earth's current Dark Age of Technology weaponry.



Can't even beat tau? I've read fluff where they spindly beat tau but are driven off, I've read fluff where they win outright, I've also read fluff where tau win, so what's your point exactly?

And the fists were not stupid enough to die in the iron cage, do you even know the fluff that you are referring to? Dorn was enraged by what happened to the emperor and peturabo baited him, so completely out of character for him (this is explicitly stated) he attacked, and of course his fists came with him, they fought in battles that would easy shred a conventional army and still came out the other end, so no they were not dumb as rocks, learn your fluff as you are just coming across as an irrational marine hater.

Earth does not have dark age tech, or are you aware of our interstellar travel, ability to create stars , sentient AI ETC.

   
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Somewhere over the rainbow

 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.


Nope, fluff says he does not,

If you are talking about TT, then leave it out of this FLUFF discussion....


According to the Fluff, SMs can't even beat the Tau, who have no HtH capability whatsoever. And the Fists were stupid enough to die to a man in the Iron Cage. SMs are dumb as rocks and useless against fishmen who can't even use a stick.

SMs are a Worf army, and would be auto-curbstomped by Earth's current Dark Age of Technology weaponry.



Can't even beat tau? I've read fluff where they spindly beat tau but are driven off, I've read fluff where they win outright, I've also read fluff where tau win, so what's your point exactly?

And the fists were not stupid enough to die in the iron cage, do you even know the fluff that you are referring to? Dorn was enraged by what happened to the emperor and peturabo baited him, so completely out of character for him (this is explicitly stated) he attacked, and of course his fists came with him, they fought in battles that would easy shred a conventional army and still came out the other end, so no they were not dumb as rocks, learn your fluff as you are just coming across as an irrational marine hater.

Earth does not have dark age tech, or are you aware of our interstellar travel, ability to create stars , sentient AI ETC.

Isn't an obvious troll obvious? But never mind me, please go on. I am really enjoying the show *eats popcorn*.



The above post was not written by an Alpha Legion operative. Hydra Dominatus. 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A Marine is a dude in heavy, but crappy, armor who drops dead to 3 Human-fired Shotgun hits.


Nope, fluff says he does not,

If you are talking about TT, then leave it out of this FLUFF discussion....


According to the Fluff, SMs can't even beat the Tau, who have no HtH capability whatsoever. And the Fists were stupid enough to die to a man in the Iron Cage. SMs are dumb as rocks and useless against fishmen who can't even use a stick.

SMs are a Worf army, and would be auto-curbstomped by Earth's current Dark Age of Technology weaponry.



Can't even beat tau? I've read fluff where they spindly beat tau but are driven off, I've read fluff where they win outright, I've also read fluff where tau win, so what's your point exactly?

And the fists were not stupid enough to die in the iron cage, do you even know the fluff that you are referring to? Dorn was enraged by what happened to the emperor and peturabo baited him, so completely out of character for him (this is explicitly stated) he attacked, and of course his fists came with him, they fought in battles that would easy shred a conventional army and still came out the other end, so no they were not dumb as rocks, learn your fluff as you are just coming across as an irrational marine hater.

Earth does not have dark age tech, or are you aware of our interstellar travel, ability to create stars , sentient AI ETC.

Isn't an obvious troll obvious? But never mind me, please go on. I am really enjoying the show *eats popcorn*.


Yep I was thinking that, but he is always like that lol, its hard to tell when he is trolling or not.

   
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SoCal, USA!

Just how serious are you expecting me to get over a fantasy game with fungus men and fishmen?

40k is one of the silliest game universes out there, and it's obvious that the Fluff is pure spin and propaganda.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in ie
Dominating Dominatrix






Dublin, Ireland

Also seems like a ton of these folks talking crap about 40k tech aren't really looking at the actually fluff, more at the table top stats and extrapolating from them.


Yeah noticed that too. A good indication of 40k lethality usually lies within the old FW IA series of books. Whilst still far from a technically legitimate review of war they are streets ahead of the BL pulp and codices.
Im firmly in the Earth would be curb stomped camp by the way

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Just how serious are you expecting me to get over a fantasy game with fungus men and fishmen?

40k is one of the silliest game universes out there, and it's obvious that the Fluff is pure spin and propaganda.


Of course its silly. Thats the fun of it.

If it were serious the game would consist of Battle Fleet Gothic. There would be no ground game because ground forces would just be nuked from orbit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ratius wrote:
Also seems like a ton of these folks talking crap about 40k tech aren't really looking at the actually fluff, more at the table top stats and extrapolating from them.


Yeah noticed that too. A good indication of 40k lethality usually lies within the old FW IA series of books. Whilst still far from a technically legitimate review of war they are streets ahead of the BL pulp and codices.
Im firmly in the Earth would be curb stomped camp by the way


That doesn't support your argument. The old FW manuals had Leman Russ armor in rolled steel comparables, and those comparables were equal to about a mid WWII tank. T55s and Centurions would go through them like gak through a goose.

Now there were some nice campaign books, but the real legality is fleet bombardments (pics where it changed the crust fo the planets they were hitting). Now that is cool.

Armeggedon is a high city fighting with WWII tech against orks and its one of the biggest campaigns until the 13th crusade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 18:50:50


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Dublin, Ireland

I wasnt talking about the fluff re: vehicle stats and that, its been noted several times that GW built the leman russ modelled on old ww2 stuff etc.

I was more getting at the tactics that the the races use.
Most Earth defenders in this thread seem to think the Orks and Nids would simply line up in a mile long front and charge nilly willy into Earths artillary, bombs and nukes.
Its peurile nonsense =/

And as another poster pointed out, about 1% of Earths population is armed. Thats about 99% less than whatever would invade us.


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ratius wrote:
I wasnt talking about the fluff re: vehicle stats and that, its been noted several times that GW built the leman russ modelled on old ww2 stuff etc.

I was more getting at the tactics that the the races use.
Most Earth defenders in this thread seem to think the Orks and Nids would simply line up in a mile long front and charge nilly willy into Earths artillary, bombs and nukes.
Its peurile nonsense =/

And as another poster pointed out, about 1% of Earths population is armed. Thats about 99% less than whatever would invade us.


1. That's exactly what the orks do once they land. Again, see Armageddon. The iron Warriors use 16th century siege tactics...

2. In WW2 forces we're typically 10%or more in the military or military industries. That's 600mm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 20:49:25


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

 Frazzled wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
I wasnt talking about the fluff re: vehicle stats and that, its been noted several times that GW built the leman russ modelled on old ww2 stuff etc.

I was more getting at the tactics that the the races use.
Most Earth defenders in this thread seem to think the Orks and Nids would simply line up in a mile long front and charge nilly willy into Earths artillary, bombs and nukes.
Its peurile nonsense =/

And as another poster pointed out, about 1% of Earths population is armed. Thats about 99% less than whatever would invade us.


1. That's exactly what the orks do once they land. Again, see Armageddon. The iron Warriors use 16th century siege tactics...

2. In WW2 forces we're typically 10%or more in the military or military industries. That's 600mm.


No thats what SOME orks do, Orks do use conventional tactics in warfare like scouting and infiltration, as well as armoured assaults and the classic Zerg rush, even different clans use different tactics, they also bring there own eco system with them similar to nids, Oil squigs are a thing, as well as food stuffs and general livestock in the form of various squigs, etc.

All Orkoid races are symbiotic with species of fungus. In fact, all of them grow from the same spores - depending on conditions the same spore may grow to a mighty Warboss or a harmless fungi. In this way, Orkoids are not just a race, but a whole ecosystem in itself. When Orks invade new worlds, this ecosystem grows. It is widely known that once a world is invaded by Orks, it is never entirely free from them again. Ork spores grow in the wilderness, giving birth to a new forms of Orkoid life. Different forms of Orkoid Fungus play essential roles in Ork society. Ork Settlements are surrounded by great patches of the fungi. Cultivated by Snotlings, they are a primal source of food in Ork society.

Also Orks are extremely adaptable and will ape tactics they see, have tech knowledge on a genetic level that while seeming low tech, is on par with even Necrons in some areas, tis bonkers.

   
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On moon miranda.

I apologize, I don't have enough time to properly respond to a lot of posts right now, but wanted to address this real quick.

agurus1 wrote:
According to the Deathwing game, you don't even need tech-marines to hack, the average Terminator can do it remotely with the tech in their armor.
That's rather amusing given that in literally every other version of Space Hulk, there is only one way to open a locked door...


Also seems like a ton of these folks talking crap about 40k tech aren't really looking at the actually fluff, more at the table top stats and extrapolating from them. I mean the deathstrike is an ICBM with a nuke attached according to the fluff but when you look at the tabletop stats they are severely underwhelming.
That's not correct, a Deathstrike is not firing a nuclear weapon in a 40k game. They are described as having a wide array of warheads, from anti-titan warheads, plasma warheads, and vortex missiles. I don't recall them ever having been described as having specifically nuclear warheads.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Just how serious are you expecting me to get over a fantasy game with fungus men and fishmen?

40k is one of the silliest game universes out there, and it's obvious that the Fluff is pure spin and propaganda.

Agreed, and I think GW have summed it up themselves very nicely in the Regimental Standard:
While the Sherman superficially resembles Imperial designs, it has several disadvantages compared to the Leman Russ. Sloped plating is likely to deflect small arms munitions into nearby soldiers while proving ineffective at dispersing las-fire. Attacking the enemy with a cavalry sabre from the turret hatch would be all but impossible due to its awkward position, even if the crew drove the officer very close.

How do you compare a universe where hitting people with swords from atop a tank is a viable combat tactic to the real world where we wage war by lobbing missiles at each other from beyond the horizon (not to mention the tank in question is physically impossible)? That is how silly 40k is. 40k functions by completely different rules from the real world, and comparing them is as silly as hitting someone with a sword instead of just shooting him (which isn't to say that hitting people with swords isn't way cooler than shooting them).



The above post was not written by an Alpha Legion operative. Hydra Dominatus. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




IandI wrote:
In order to make it even remotely fair, assume the 40k faction cannot just obliterate us all from space. Their fleet assets can deliver ground troops and equipment only. The 40k faction does have access to all the inter atmosphere aircraft and vehicles a force of their size would normally have plus a few superheavies.

An ork Waaagh of 50 million orks. (They can spawn more as normal.)

One chapter of Marines.

An Eldar Craftworld. (Honestly I don't know how many Eldar warriors and vehicles a Craftworld has, but I assume it's a few hundred thousand guys and a couple hundred tanks and planes.)

30 regiments of Imperial Guard.

A splinter fleet of Tyranids numbering about 50 million creatures. (They can make more as normal.)

A Tau expansion fleet. (They are not here to negotiate, just kill)

1000 Chaos Marines. (Limited Daemonic support)

I'm going to say we survive except against Tyranids, Chaos, and maybe Tau because of air power. It doesn't seem like any of these 40k groups would have enough air assets to deal with the thousands and thousands of tactical aircraft that inhabit 2017 Earth. I think they would do solid work on the ground against infantry and tanks, but I doubt power armor and bolters would hold up long against repeated missile barrages from drones flying 30,000 feet up. Tyranids could probably just crash gargoyles into jet engines to silence the threat while happily gobbling up biomass to produce more gribblies. Chaos could subvert huge chunks of the population or riddle them with disease. Tau seem like they would be capable of blasting a lot of planes out of the sky to even up the ground war.

What's your take dakka?



I think the first thing that would have to be decided on is where to get the data to calculate 40k force strength, which is something already discussed pretty heavily here. Honestly I think it depends from person to person, as the BL and all 40k background really can have a lot of conflicting information. There are books where guard can’t touch a SM, and in others where the SM get killed pretty easily to well aimed shots or mass fire. Ultimately I don’t think we have enough hard data in that regard to make a decision. Now we could use tabletop stats since in theory they’d be reflective of relative balance. In that regard the Earth would win easily every time because conscript spam and horrendous distances their weapons can shoot XD. But really I don’t take much stock in that metric either so your mileage may vary.

Something else that can effect things are how the forces get deployed- for example do the orks deploy in a single spot initially or can they spread around, and also can we meta game since we know what the 40k forces are like. It’d be easy to nuke a single large green skin LZ day 1 if they deployed together and call it a day since it would also get rid of the spores, you’d lose a lot of land but it stops the orks from using their real advantage of their fungus. Stuff like that.

For me personally I think we’d be able to win often enough to give us a good chance, but it’d make WW I and II look like skirmishes for sure.
   
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R0bcrt wrote:

I think the first thing that would have to be decided on is where to get the data to calculate 40k force strength, which is something already discussed pretty heavily here.

And will be never solved. As I stated about 1 page before, your conclusion just depends on your confirmation bias (ie. you come to the conclusion you want to, since any conclusion possible is backed by some silly stuff released by GW/Forge World)

However if you want to be remotely realistic any 40k military unit would squash the entire armed forces of the earth like a bug.

The oh so primitive and outdated Imperium can hold itself vs million year old AI super robots and a similar old race of uber psykers.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 16:16:04


 
   
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k doesn't even use targeting computers.


In 2nd Ed every marine with a heavy weapon had a targeter giving a +1 to hit. Same with all Terminators.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Been Around the Block




UncleThomson wrote:
R0bcrt wrote:

I think the first thing that would have to be decided on is where to get the data to calculate 40k force strength, which is something already discussed pretty heavily here.

And will be never solved. As I stated about 1 page before, your conclusion just depends on your confirmation bias (ie. you come to the conclusion you want to, since any conclusion possible is backed by some silly stuff released by GW/Forge World)

However if you want to be remotely realistic any 40k military unit would squash the entire armed forces of the earth like a bug.

The oh so primitive and outdated Imperium can hold itself vs million year old AI super robots and a similar old race of uber psykers.





I agree it's an impossible endeavor to have an exact idea, but I really disagree on the absolute that we'd be squashed like a bug (this assumes we are using the metric the OP uses, because if an entire faction comes then yeah probably we'd be dead). For example take the siege of Vraks, where 14 million guardsmen were lost to the 8 million population (that was everyone, and most of them probably weren't using much more than autoguns) on Vraks. The fact that the planet had 8 million yet was considered a major siege rings alarm bells in my mind. 8 million to 7 billion is a substantial jump in size, to say the least, and easily covers the gap if we do accept 40k gear is better than ours. Also remember war isn't in a vacuum in that equipment will change sides and with 7 billion people to fight against you don't need that many captured 40k guns to suddenly start a viable guerilla warfare if 40k tech truly is so far advanced of ours (which in my opinion some things are but some are decidedly not). Heck lasguns can be charged by fires so you wouldn't even have to raid their supplies continuously in the case against the imperials.

I mean the Imperium can hold their own easily, but it's not because any individual regiment is going to crush worlds or anything, it's numbers more than anything else for the IG, and with the OP scenario we as Earth have that advantage in spades. Sure they have good tech, but their understanding of it is extremely poor also, so we also stand a much better chance at adapting which shouldn't be under-estimated. Also another interesting question would the psykers be all that helpful? For all we know we are all blanks today haha. Really though psykers are a wild card, they may help alot or do nothing, there's no way to know that until it actually happens since we have no precedent for them in our universe and how they'd interact. would there even be a warp for them to use?

Now if we wanted to be realistic about it we would stomp them because most their tech is impractical at best, and impossible at worst when using our sets of physics, which they'd have to operate under if they were to invade our Earth XD.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Norwich

See this is why I said earlier in the thread that we need to establish which universe this is in, if it's in ours then all the real world issues would apply and all the 40k armies would look slightly different, if it's the 40k universe then all there rules apply, however silly and op, and we get curb stomped.

   
Made in de
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




Of course earth would win. As 40k is mostly matched play, we would have the same points, thus same army strenght. So we are basically imperial guard :-)

Then we would steal the initiative, roll a few lucky die on turn1 and wreck a land raider or two (or hive tyrants or whatever). Then our opponent (the invading marines / tyranids or whatever) would just quit the game because "he can never win with that much point difference even before his first turn".

Easy as pie ;-)
   
 
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