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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
The new ork squigg boys are 25 points.


Daemon blood crushers are 40 points.

GW missing the mark here by about 50% they are a pretty comparable unit with the ork squiggy winning out. Discrepancy like this can't be tolerated by the community.


I mean, it can, and does frequently do exactly that. Nobody (that I know of) would argue that Bloodcrushers are a particularly good unit, I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad. It is worth noting that, while I definitely agree 40 is too much, bloodcrushers are in general not exactly the same thing:

-W4 vs W3, which is a fairly important breakpoint in terms of weapons being able to one-shot them
-5++ vs 6++
-Ld7 vs Ld6 (actually fairly relevant on a min 3-squad unit as it doubles the odds of the third model fleeing when you kill 2)
-7 attacks on the charge vs 5 attacks

Bloodcrushers are probably a 30pt model rather than a 40pt model, but I'm still not particularly scared of mass squighog boyz - they're strictly a turn 2 tempo unit and they basically just have to take your attacks on the chin turn 1. At least Bloodcrushers can take a maxed-out unit and say 'cool, I've got a 4++ for 2cp come at me'.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ventus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And he was noting that they were making up stats instead of referring to the actual events.


Pointing out that hypotheticals conjured up for demonstration purposes aren't real is peak DakkaDakka.


The hypothetical was an attempt null the data being presented, because we just always assume everything is mirror and the game is "at its worst point". That's peak Dakka.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 the_scotsman wrote:
...I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad...


They ought to be under an obligation to fix the bad unit instead of nailing themselves to their "oh, no, we can't fix that until their next army book comes out in two or three years!" schedule.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
...I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad...


They ought to be under an obligation to fix the bad unit instead of nailing themselves to their "oh, no, we can't fix that until their next army book comes out in two or three years!" schedule.


GW underutilizes unit cards. Include them in the box, if the unit's rules change, players can buy a new one on Wargame Vault. Like Wyrd does.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Blastaar wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
...I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad...


They ought to be under an obligation to fix the bad unit instead of nailing themselves to their "oh, no, we can't fix that until their next army book comes out in two or three years!" schedule.


GW underutilizes unit cards. Include them in the box, if the unit's rules change, players can buy a new one on Wargame Vault. Like Wyrd does.


Do GW update the unit cards in the sets beyond codex updates? I was under the impression the only things they changed about units was in CA and even then it was only the points cost.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:

Do GW update the unit cards in the sets beyond codex updates? I was under the impression the only things they changed about units was in CA and even then it was only the points cost.


Very rarely they have changed profiles in CA. The exception rather than the rule.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
The new ork squigg boys are 25 points.


Daemon blood crushers are 40 points.

GW missing the mark here by about 50% they are a pretty comparable unit with the ork squiggy winning out. Discrepancy like this can't be tolerated by the community.


I mean, it can, and does frequently do exactly that. Nobody (that I know of) would argue that Bloodcrushers are a particularly good unit, I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad. It is worth noting that, while I definitely agree 40 is too much, bloodcrushers are in general not exactly the same thing:

-W4 vs W3, which is a fairly important breakpoint in terms of weapons being able to one-shot them
-5++ vs 6++
-Ld7 vs Ld6 (actually fairly relevant on a min 3-squad unit as it doubles the odds of the third model fleeing when you kill 2)
-7 attacks on the charge vs 5 attacks

Bloodcrushers are probably a 30pt model rather than a 40pt model, but I'm still not particularly scared of mass squighog boyz - they're strictly a turn 2 tempo unit and they basically just have to take your attacks on the chin turn 1. At least Bloodcrushers can take a maxed-out unit and say 'cool, I've got a 4++ for 2cp come at me'.

They aren't a "great unit" by far. That is the issue. Some units are unquestionably worse than what is already considered "good units" then we have this nonsensical power creep going out just making them worse and worse. Both these units would probably be fair at 30-35 points. but one costs 25 and the other 40. It is a joke. Why even have a CA points change for one unit if you aren't going to address every unit?

Also you bring stratagems into the mix. Stratagems have nothing to do with how a unit is pointed. The stratagem itself has a cost and limitations - it is up to the stratagem to regulate itself. That is the only way that can work.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Bloodcrushers are probably a 30pt model rather than a 40pt model, but I'm still not particularly scared of mass squighog boyz - they're strictly a turn 2 tempo unit and they basically just have to take your attacks on the chin turn 1. At least Bloodcrushers can take a maxed-out unit and say 'cool, I've got a 4++ for 2cp come at me'.


Hmmm. I think that's very sanguine on Squighogs. I can see potentially soft issues on base size if people try to spam them, and I wouldn't expect people to go 3*6 except for the fun of it because of that (and Blast).

But... (and maybe this is playing Orks as Dark Eldar) for 75 points (or 80 with Bomb Squig) you have a relatively cheap unit that should easily get its points back versus most things you charge into. If you focus it down then sure it dies - but I don't think its that trivial to clear 6-9 T6 4+/6++ wounds. And if your say 2 squads are focused down turn 1, you've got another 1850 odd points running around the table so I'm not sure its the end of the world. Orks themselves could be a bad matchup with rokkit spam - but there aren't huge numbers of flat damage 3 weapons in the game. If 25 point hogz start eating melta/dark lances, that's great news unless you have no vehicles in your list.

Points made (in other threads) about them not flying are reasonable - but then arguably neither do lots of DE units after they disembark. With a theoretically maximum move of 20"+4D6 they should be able to largely go after wherever you want them to on turn 2.

Similar story with the Squigosaurs. Agree with some that they may be being overhyped *in themselves*. But the point is that they are cheap, so don't need to make that much of a contribution, or be *that* annoying to deal with to be very powerful.

Will you be able to deal with them and Kommandos, and Storm Boyz, and some Truck Boyz and maybe that 30 man Choppa Blob that still has a 40%~ chance with a reroll on the cast to appear in your lines Turn 1 (and if they fail to charge, really has to be dealt with on top of all this stuff)?

I don't think any of these things are game breaking in themselves - but as we see with DE, its about how lots of aggressively tuned things together makes a monstrous whole.

But its early days for Orks anyway.
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
...I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad...


They ought to be under an obligation to fix the bad unit instead of nailing themselves to their "oh, no, we can't fix that until their next army book comes out in two or three years!" schedule.


Yep, agreed. I am continuously and intensely frustrated by GW's utter disinterest in maintaining what currently exists in the game as opposed to hocking whatever the new hotness is. It especially sucks when, as is the case with the current Ork 'dex, it's very clear that a whole lot has been shoved off to one side in order to make room for new things you're supposed to buy.

Neither of those things are actually the complaint being stated here, though. What's being said here is that because an existing unit with a particular unit design paradigm generally doesn't work, the new unit shouldn't be allowed to work and pay a fair point cost for its level of power.

And it's true that GW has generally overvalued close assault units that are too slow to get to their intended targets in a single turn which also lack delivery mechanisms.

I think for bloodcrushers the fix is really just as simple as a modest points drop, honestly, their rules work fine with where their general power level in-lore should be, and you look at the unit and it's about as strong and as tough as you think it ought to be instinctively. It looks like a big nasty rhinocerous that would really feth you up if it charged you, it's a big nasty rhinocerous that really feths you up if it charges you.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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North Carolina

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

They aren't a "great unit" by far. That is the issue. Some units are unquestionably worse than what is already considered "good units" then we have this nonsensical power creep going out just making them worse and worse. Both these units would probably be fair at 30-35 points. but one costs 25 and the other 40. It is a joke. Why even have a CA points change for one unit if you aren't going to address every unit?

Also you bring stratagems into the mix. Stratagems have nothing to do with how a unit is pointed. The stratagem itself has a cost and limitations - it is up to the stratagem to regulate itself. That is the only way that can work.


This gets at one of my main issues with Chapter Approved/MFM. It's so, so, so bleeping arbitrary. You have the nerfs, which are usually at least a tiny bit deserved (except for that hilarious Ogryn nonsense back in 2019), either because the internal or external balance is off. Okay, fine. But even that is kind of arbitrarily applied, and often the nerfs via points increases don't really solve the problem (see the DE post-FAQ patch). Then the buffs are where it gets stupid. The biggest buffs tend to be to the already strongest units in the book, or the linchpins. Like, the Swarmlord. Why the hell did he get buffed in the last CA??? Nids have a whole menagerie of garbage units, and Swarmie is the one who gets the buff. It's like GW's paying attention to the competitive meta there (they know Nids need help, so they throw them a small bone... minus the nerf to the Dimachaeron at the same time), but we know they don't do that. So does GW really think the Haruspex or the Hive Crone is good?

And honestly, Nids had it better than some factions. Did Daemons get any points changes last go-round? I guess maybe I remember them nerfing LoC (but not Keepers of Secrets, who also showed up in the early days of 9e). Or Tau, with that frankly silly Riptide points change. It's just bad, the incompetence is pretty astounding.
   
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Tyel wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Bloodcrushers are probably a 30pt model rather than a 40pt model, but I'm still not particularly scared of mass squighog boyz - they're strictly a turn 2 tempo unit and they basically just have to take your attacks on the chin turn 1. At least Bloodcrushers can take a maxed-out unit and say 'cool, I've got a 4++ for 2cp come at me'.


Hmmm. I think that's very sanguine on Squighogs. I can see potentially soft issues on base size if people try to spam them, and I wouldn't expect people to go 3*6 except for the fun of it because of that (and Blast).

But... (and maybe this is playing Orks as Dark Eldar) for 75 points (or 80 with Bomb Squig) you have a relatively cheap unit that should easily get its points back versus most things you charge into.


3 of them deal 5 unsaved wounds to a vehicle or eat a min GEQ squad. it's really only MEQ you need to keep them away from, their S5/S6 with moderate AP keeps them from being a real threat to vehicles.

compare to equal points of drukhari Incubi, which deal 10 damage to a vehicle profile.

I don't think squighog boyz are quite the 'murder-everything' unit that people are currently painting them as. They're sure not nothing, but getting charged by them isnt the automatic trade up death sentence people are currently hyping it up to be. They're just properly costed for something without spectacular defenses that has to take it on the chin for at least one turn before they're allowed to deal any damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
The new ork squigg boys are 25 points.


Daemon blood crushers are 40 points.

GW missing the mark here by about 50% they are a pretty comparable unit with the ork squiggy winning out. Discrepancy like this can't be tolerated by the community.


I mean, it can, and does frequently do exactly that. Nobody (that I know of) would argue that Bloodcrushers are a particularly good unit, I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad. It is worth noting that, while I definitely agree 40 is too much, bloodcrushers are in general not exactly the same thing:

-W4 vs W3, which is a fairly important breakpoint in terms of weapons being able to one-shot them
-5++ vs 6++
-Ld7 vs Ld6 (actually fairly relevant on a min 3-squad unit as it doubles the odds of the third model fleeing when you kill 2)
-7 attacks on the charge vs 5 attacks

Bloodcrushers are probably a 30pt model rather than a 40pt model, but I'm still not particularly scared of mass squighog boyz - they're strictly a turn 2 tempo unit and they basically just have to take your attacks on the chin turn 1. At least Bloodcrushers can take a maxed-out unit and say 'cool, I've got a 4++ for 2cp come at me'.

They aren't a "great unit" by far. That is the issue. Some units are unquestionably worse than what is already considered "good units" then we have this nonsensical power creep going out just making them worse and worse. Both these units would probably be fair at 30-35 points. but one costs 25 and the other 40. It is a joke. Why even have a CA points change for one unit if you aren't going to address every unit?

Also you bring stratagems into the mix. Stratagems have nothing to do with how a unit is pointed. The stratagem itself has a cost and limitations - it is up to the stratagem to regulate itself. That is the only way that can work.


...except that, in my eyes, it's only actually 'power creep' if the particular unit in question is OP when compared to the actual current game "average joe" unit. Codex: Daemons was, after all, designed for a completely different edition of the game, and as such it's in an extremely wonky place when looked at holistically for internal and external balance with certain units (such as slaanesh units) being massively above the power curve they were probably designed for while others (particularly tzeentch units) are far, far below.

I completely 1000% agree with your frustration regarding CA. I may or may not go extremely out of my way to not only not purchase that particular publication but ensure that others also do not purchase it, because the stated goal of continual balance is so blatantly unevenly applied between factions gw considers 'a priority' and factions that they do not.

Where I disagree is viewing the squighog boyz as an example of 'power creep'. I would be *extremely* surprised to see them cleaning it up against basically any competitive meta setup. A competently set up Tau list would absolutely eat their lunch, and theyre not especially notoriously powerful at the moment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 18:45:25


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
3 of them deal 5 unsaved wounds to a vehicle or eat a min GEQ squad. it's really only MEQ you need to keep them away from, their S5/S6 with moderate AP keeps them from being a real threat to vehicles.

compare to equal points of drukhari Incubi, which deal 10 damage to a vehicle profile.

I don't think squighog boyz are quite the 'murder-everything' unit that people are currently painting them as. They're sure not nothing, but getting charged by them isnt the automatic trade up death sentence people are currently hyping it up to be. They're just properly costed for something without spectacular defenses that has to take it on the chin for at least one turn before they're allowed to deal any damage.


I think you are underselling them.

I mean lets make them Snakebites for +1 to wound and Waaagh for the extra attack.
Onto a Rhino (T7 3+).

Stikkas: 12*5/6*1/2*2/3*2=6.6.
Jaws: 6*5/6*1/2*1/2*2=2.5
Saddlegit: 3*5/6*1/2*1/3=0.416.
Total: 9.51 wounds.

To be fair, not sure people will be going Snakebites - so with Goths:
Stikkas: 8 (12*1*1/2 (due to S7), *2/3*2=8.)
Jaws: 1.66
Saddlegit: 0.33.
Total: 10 Wounds.

Am I doing something wrong? Yes in both cases you are dependent on Waaagh giving that +1 attack and charging with an assault-focused Kultur but I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

Also not touched on the bomb squig, which seems to be roll a dice, 3+ =d3 mortal wounds, 2+ on vehicles. For an incredibly token 5 points that's good versus everything and incredibly good against lots of things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 19:33:34


 
   
Made in us
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These hogs are gonna be a real big problem IMO. 150 points gets you 18 t6 wounds moving up the table quickly. Advance and charge no problem. Sure you can kill it but it's gonna require str 6+ firepower to really do it. Anything they touch unmolestedly dies.

I mean FFS these guys are cheaper than a heavy intercessor.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 19:56:25


 
   
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"Squig Pigs have ruined the balance of 40k" is not something I ever expected to hear in this hobby.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
These hogs are gonna be a real big problem IMO. 150 points gets you 18 t6 wounds moving up the table quickly. Advance and charge no problem. Sure you can kill it but it's gonna require str 6+ firepower to really do it. Anything they touch unmolestedly dies.

I mean FFS these guys are cheaper than a heavy intercessor.


Don't they have crap for armor though?
Yeah, they're cheap and they have some wounds, but how quickly can you drain those wounds with heavy weapons?
Perhaps the reason why they are that cheap is because they are expected to die quickly if you use the right weapon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 20:22:31


What I have
~4100
~1660

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Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
These hogs are gonna be a real big problem IMO. 150 points gets you 18 t6 wounds moving up the table quickly. Advance and charge no problem. Sure you can kill it but it's gonna require str 6+ firepower to really do it. Anything they touch unmolestedly dies.

I mean FFS these guys are cheaper than a heavy intercessor.


Don't they have crap for armor though?
Yeah, they're cheap and they have some wounds, but how quickly can you drain those wounds with heavy weapons?

With the right weapons they will get smoked.
They are T6 though. Their armor is also not complete crap - it is 4+ and they have a 6++ save.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
These hogs are gonna be a real big problem IMO. 150 points gets you 18 t6 wounds moving up the table quickly. Advance and charge no problem. Sure you can kill it but it's gonna require str 6+ firepower to really do it. Anything they touch unmolestedly dies.

I mean FFS these guys are cheaper than a heavy intercessor.


Don't they have crap for armor though?
Yeah, they're cheap and they have some wounds, but how quickly can you drain those wounds with heavy weapons?

With the right weapons they will get smoked.
They are T6 though. Their armor is also not complete crap - it is 4+ and they have a 6++ save.

Oof that is decent. Well, at least GW is encouraging players to take heavier weapons I guess.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Would be nice then If they gave all factions access to an ability to spam those heavier weapons

But hardly a game breaking problem for w40k.
Ork stuff is good or at least curious to look at. With the other good in 9th it was clear at first sight what was the broken stuff.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

Blastaar wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
...I don't see GW as being under any particular obligation to release their new unit purposefully bad just because a similar unit exists and is bad...


They ought to be under an obligation to fix the bad unit instead of nailing themselves to their "oh, no, we can't fix that until their next army book comes out in two or three years!" schedule.


GW underutilizes unit cards. Include them in the box, if the unit's rules change, players can buy a new one on Wargame Vault. Like Wyrd does.


A shame we're still living in the 1950s, otherwise we might be able to forego printed rules and instead have free, downloadable PDFs that can be updated whenever necessary.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 Gert wrote:
"Squig Pigs have ruined the balance of 40k" is not something I ever expected to hear in this hobby.


If you've been an ork player on dakka long enough, you will get used to people whining about every single entry in your codex as being OP and call for nerfs and bans of everything that made someone win a three people tournament held in the backyard of a school. Some people just can't stomach some green hooligans beating the tar out of their bestest at everything super soldiers, while the orks aren't even taking the whole thing seriously.

Can't wait for the thread where someone to completely loses their gak because a wyrd boy on foot managed to hit their entire army at once with frazzle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 22:02:46


Earth is not flat
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Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

By today standards a meele unit that doesnt insta deletes whatever it charges is not viable, so I would not judge the squid hogs by that metric but by how are they gonna engage their intended target.

Thats the real problem with OP meele units, like repentia charging from a rhino at 27" with a guaranteed 12" charge, for example.

If the only possibility of those porks to charge something is to move (with big bases and without an hability to ignore terrain) straight towards them (So any kind of screen will completely stop them) then it does not matter their offensive power unless we are speaking about some kind of Omega level threat with a absurd defensive profile. They'll be fine.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Earth

I picked up the new marines codex and codex dark angels.

And I am absolutely overwhelmed with so much information, I have no idea where to start with these books, I stopped playing halfway through 8th as I did not like the rules or the way the game was played.

got the 9th book and kinda liked the changes but due to the coof I have been working solid and only now really had a chance to dig in properly and have to say I am opining for a simpler ruleset like 3rd or 4th, hell even 5th.
   
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Yeah, that's kinda it, right? They've streamlined the core engine but then gone overboard in terms of adding 'flavor' without doing anything so structurally useful as boiling common rules down to USRs, and then the resulting system is way too complex and top-heavy. Kind of reminds me of D&D 3.0/3.5, where it was great fun to think up a force or character and imagine what they could do, but way less fun to actually try to have a battle with it.

It's kind of this engine intended for a Piper Cub trying to carry the weight of a commercial airliner.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
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That's a great example, D&D 3.X has the relatively lightweight d20 core mechanic but every indidivudal character, NPC or Monster can just be completely buried in the endless amount of options between skill, feats, (prestige-)class features, templates, etc. that it's just a giant pain to deal with when running a game. Not so bad if you're a player with only one character to worry about it.

Applying that to 40k, it's okay to have layers upon layers of rules if you're a Custodes or other ultra expensive ppm army. But for everyone else there's just a headache of rules to have to remember.

Also, agree with Vipoid. It is astonishing to me that you can release a new edition then tell people to wait 1-2 years for their army to get an update. I can't think of any other game company who gets a pass like that.
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Also, agree with Vipoid. It is astonishing to me that you can release a new edition then tell people to wait 1-2 years for their army to get an update. I can't think of any other game company who gets a pass like that.


What gets me is that CA17 came with a bunch of extra interim rules for factions without a codex. It was literally just a page each but it helped.
Why couldn't they do the same alongside the FAQs or CA21, adding faction-specific secondaries or upgrading army traits?
   
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Exalted Beastlord




 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That's a great example, D&D 3.X has the relatively lightweight d20 core mechanic but every indidivudal character, NPC or Monster can just be completely buried in the endless amount of options between skill, feats, (prestige-)class features, templates, etc. that it's just a giant pain to deal with when running a game. Not so bad if you're a player with only one character to worry about it.

Applying that to 40k, it's okay to have layers upon layers of rules if you're a Custodes or other ultra expensive ppm army. But for everyone else there's just a headache of rules to have to remember.

Also, agree with Vipoid. It is astonishing to me that you can release a new edition then tell people to wait 1-2 years for their army to get an update. I can't think of any other game company who gets a pass like that.


Rackham was much worse. Some armies never even got launched, despite being on the schedule indefinitely.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






 xttz wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Also, agree with Vipoid. It is astonishing to me that you can release a new edition then tell people to wait 1-2 years for their army to get an update. I can't think of any other game company who gets a pass like that.


What gets me is that CA17 came with a bunch of extra interim rules for factions without a codex. It was literally just a page each but it helped.
Why couldn't they do the same alongside the FAQs or CA21, adding faction-specific secondaries or upgrading army traits?


Yeah the only reason we don't get updated digital rules is because that would cut into $50 book sales. Good ol'greed.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Formosa wrote:
I picked up the new marines codex and codex dark angels.

And I am absolutely overwhelmed with so much information, I have no idea where to start with these books, I stopped playing halfway through 8th as I did not like the rules or the way the game was played.


I'd heard that the AdMech book was looking really overpowered so I took a glance at the leaks, just out of curiosity.

My first impression was that they might as well have been written in another language for all I could discern from them. It's not just the layered rules, it's that so many rules have stupidly verbose names that make them completely unintuitive for someone trying to get to grips with an unfamiliar army.

Though even the ones that aren't written in faux Latin or in GW copywrite speak (sorry, I of course meant "Scriptures of the Order Exemplum Scribere TM") often end up being completely unintuitive anyway.

As an example, pretend you know nothing about Dark Eldar - what comes to your mind when you hear the words "Power from Pain"? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you'd expect a unit with that rule to get a boost either when it wounds/kills an enemy unit or else when it takes damage (but isn't killed). Nope, it's a completely non-interactive table that just advances by 1 each turn regardless of anything a given unit is doing or anything happening on the field in general.

You can consider this a minor gripe but when the game is as bloated as 40k and players have to remember not just unit rules and weapon rules but also faction rules, subfaction rules, psychic powers, prayers, artefacts, warlord traits, 4 million stratagems etc. it would really help if those things at least had intuitive names. Instead, you could probably rename many rules "Quest for the Sausage Fountain" or "Surprisingly Large Nose" and they'd make just as much sense as they do now.


 CEO Kasen wrote:
Yeah, that's kinda it, right? They've streamlined the core engine but then gone overboard in terms of adding 'flavor' without doing anything so structurally useful as boiling common rules down to USRs, and then the resulting system is way too complex and top-heavy. Kind of reminds me of D&D 3.0/3.5, where it was great fun to think up a force or character and imagine what they could do, but way less fun to actually try to have a battle with it.

It's kind of this engine intended for a Piper Cub trying to carry the weight of a commercial airliner.


The other aspect is that most of the special rules that supposedly add flavour just end up being a waste of ink. 99% of the time they add no flavour whatsoever, let alone any interesting gameplay. A fact not helped by GW's naming policy:

"Acute Reflexes" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.
"Twisted Senses" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.
"Master Tactician" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.
"Unrivalled Duellist" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.
"Chosen of the God Emperor" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.
"EMPOWERED BY THE DAEMON LORD DRAKHOSTVXH, DREAD RULER OF THE NIGHTMARE LABARYNTH OF CHAOS" - This unit rerolls to-hit rolls of 1.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Hahaha, that is a great point. Having a rule with an intuitive name is very helpful especially for a new player. While weird latin can be a fun flavor item it's not great when its dialed up to 11.

The Reroll Hits of 1 example had me cracking up.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I’ve said this before on this Forum, but I’ll say it again here because it bears repeating. The casual competitive divide is really just a divide between “those who play often” vs “those who don’t.”

A obvious statement to is “humans like winning and dislike losing.” This of course will mean people will take steps to achieve winning and avoid losing. Why is this important, well if a player plays frequently they will continue to evolve to beat one another. If I and my best friend just got into the game knowing nothing, but he beats me the first 3 games we play I’m likely to take a number of actions to change this. One of these will likely be looking online/asking a better player for competitive advice on how to play my army and beat my fiends. I therefore, likely spend my next available income on units/armies the internet tells me is good. If I then beat my friend using this advice, he will likely do the same; and the cycle continues. This is doubly true if you are playing with a group of friends, as everyone fights to make the best army. The key here is that is evolution only happens as fast as a person plays. If I play once a week with my friend, we will learn pretty quickly what’s good and what’s not. If I/we only play once every 3 months, then we might not even competitively evolve because the loser of those games may not even be invested enough in the gaming aspect of the hobby to care.

This competitive level might also diminish if you “win” in other aspects of the hobby. This might come from painting/converting/storytelling/arguing on forums like this. Regardless, any of these aspects might cause you to play less and therefor consider yourself a “more casual gamer.”

So those getting offended by me emphasizing competitive games; how many games are you playing? Is in the realm of 1 game a week, or is it treading more towards many months inbetween? I doubt many(if any) will in the low camp will admit to it, but it’s an interesting thought experiment none-the-less”.
   
 
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