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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I do think movement (on table with models) is less important now. For two extremes we have gone from 24” apart deployment on a 4’ deep table and moving on average 4” or 8” per turn, to starting 18” apart on a board 44” deep with movement being 6” or D6+6” and lots of ways of going faster.

Transports are now far less necessary and simply not worth it.
   
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Ground ones without invs yes. Flying, open topped ones with inv save were and are doing great for both armies that have them. Being able to ignore multiple core mechanics of the game can give good results , specially when the effects can be stacked up.

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Regular Dakkanaut




My biggest issue is the lack of FAQ's to other factions when new codexes are released, IE:

When Space Marines dropped:
- Chaos Marines not getting 2 wounds when Space Marines dropped.
- Not all weapons being properly updated when melta changed. Such as Tau fusion blasters, or Knights thermal cannons.

When Dark Eldar dropped:
- Eldar bright lances not becoming D3 + 3.

When Ad-Mech dropped:
- Lascannons not getting some kind of buff. I would have changed all lascannons to Damage D6 (minimum 3). That retains the "Ad-Mech horde the best toys" but at least makes the standard lascannon useful.

* * * * *

These army of renown's often don't have enough restrictions. They should have anything from a 0 - 3 CP cost in addition to their datasheet restrictions. Which means a cost that can be tweaked. Something like the Ad-Mech Defence Cohort could be 0 CP as it's not really that great, while something like the Skitarii Veteran Cohort could cost 2 or 3 CP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 06:15:24


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As to the (non-problem of) Endless Spells, those would be cool in 40k. In fact, I'm sure that a lot of here thought that the much-hyped Psychic Awakening was GW's way of introducing such a concept into 40k. Instead there wasn't much psychics, and not a lot of awakening, just repeated Primaris rules and half-hearted tweaks to each army in the build up to 9th but man, it would'a been cool if we'd have got some. I own tons of Endless Spells and I don't even play AoS. They're great minis.
They used to make vortex grenade models. There are lots of ways to get tabletop effects in 40k, but they aren't making them. Popping smoke, forcefields...
There could be models for the mysterious objectives, such as the Skyfire system, the booby-trap, the comms array, etc. Mysterious objectives fell out a couple of editions ago though.

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The precursor to Endless Spells was from, Storm of Chaos (I think), with a bunch of specially coloured domes for different spell effects. I don't think it was an End Times release. Could be wrong.

In any case, those were pretty cool. Basically a bigger version of the Vortex grenade dome they made for 1st Ed Apocalypse.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The precursor to Endless Spells was from, Storm of Chaos (I think), with a bunch of specially coloured domes for different spell effects. I don't think it was an End Times release. Could be wrong.

In any case, those were pretty cool. Basically a bigger version of the Vortex grenade dome they made for 1st Ed Apocalypse.


Storm of Chaos had none of that, because 6th edition Fantasy Battle was still sensible. The spell domes became a thing towards 8th edition, when Purple Suns and their ilk were devouring armies left and right.

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Definitely gotta disagree here, movement is very easily the most important phase of the game that matters wayyyyy more than any other by an incredible margin. Using your movement to position correctly is a large part of the timing you mentioned, in fact! Especially with the way Primary works in 9th edition, your movement phase isn't just setting you up for this turn, you have to make sure it works with the upcoming turn as well



Yeah movement is important. No one is suggesting it's not important at all. But it's considerably less important than when we were on bigger tables. Considerably. This is partly because of the small table size, partly because of the strats and partly because of the way the missions work. Even things like the fact that you essentially have "risk free" deep-strike have a big effect in this. They're not going to scatter. They're not going to die. They're not going to bounce 12" away from where I needed them and get stuck out of position. So it's ... about timing .... it's the only variable you have to calculate.

In prior editions, on bigger tables, you make a mistake on turn 1 in the movement phase, you may well have been SOL. Mistakes in movement could be crushing and unrecoverable. You had to be really good at it. In 9th? yeah. No. Not so much man. My SLOWEST armies can get anywhere I need them whenever I need them there and it's pretty hard to get caught out (and I'm not even playing the "fast" armies like Eldar jetbikes). It happens, but not as often as it used to. The game essentially boils down to "Do I take the objective first and resist his attempts to kill me off of it, or do I let him take the objective and kill HIM off of it." So it's really timing. Again, people get the two confused.

FAR more important is timing. I can even have the wrong unit lined up to take an objective and still be fine because the armies have so many mechanisms to correct for that. It's not necessarily bad. I want to stress that. It isn't. The game being generally more forgiving in this particular aspect is probably a good thing for accessibility of new players (despite things being so killy), but it DOES make the game far more tactically shallow than previous editions.

It's not that it's categorically "bad". It's just a different game and I think people are responding to that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 15:15:31


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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 Sherrypie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The precursor to Endless Spells was from, Storm of Chaos (I think), with a bunch of specially coloured domes for different spell effects. I don't think it was an End Times release. Could be wrong.

In any case, those were pretty cool. Basically a bigger version of the Vortex grenade dome they made for 1st Ed Apocalypse.


Storm of Chaos had none of that, because 6th edition Fantasy Battle was still sensible. The spell domes became a thing towards 8th edition, when Purple Suns and their ilk were devouring armies left and right.


He's referring to Storm of Magic, which came out in 8th.



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Ah. That's what it was.

These things:


Also when the Magewrath Throne was on a bunch of skulls (I just found my box with these in it!):

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Tycho wrote:
Definitely gotta disagree here, movement is very easily the most important phase of the game that matters wayyyyy more than any other by an incredible margin. Using your movement to position correctly is a large part of the timing you mentioned, in fact! Especially with the way Primary works in 9th edition, your movement phase isn't just setting you up for this turn, you have to make sure it works with the upcoming turn as well



Yeah movement is important. No one is suggesting it's not important at all. But it's considerably less important than when we were on bigger tables. Considerably. This is partly because of the small table size, partly because of the strats and partly because of the way the missions work. Even things like the fact that you essentially have "risk free" deep-strike have a big effect in this. They're not going to scatter. They're not going to die. They're not going to bounce 12" away from where I needed them and get stuck out of position. So it's ... about timing .... it's the only variable you have to calculate.

In prior editions, on bigger tables, you make a mistake on turn 1 in the movement phase, you may well have been SOL. Mistakes in movement could be crushing and unrecoverable. You had to be really good at it. In 9th? yeah. No. Not so much man. My SLOWEST armies can get anywhere I need them whenever I need them there and it's pretty hard to get caught out (and I'm not even playing the "fast" armies like Eldar jetbikes). It happens, but not as often as it used to. The game essentially boils down to "Do I take the objective first and resist his attempts to kill me off of it, or do I let him take the objective and kill HIM off of it." So it's really timing. Again, people get the two confused.

FAR more important is timing. I can even have the wrong unit lined up to take an objective and still be fine because the armies have so many mechanisms to correct for that. It's not necessarily bad. I want to stress that. It isn't. The game being generally more forgiving in this particular aspect is probably a good thing for accessibility of new players (despite things being so killy), but it DOES make the game far more tactically shallow than previous editions.

It's not that it's categorically "bad". It's just a different game and I think people are responding to that.


I'm having a hard time conceiving of a turn 1 movement blunder in older editions that wasn't either 1) you somehow decided they should look at your tank's ass or 2) you decided to expose yourself without having enough firepower to stop them from taking you off the table.

With the primary / secondary gun rules on vehicles plus no move and shoot on heavies you had ridiculously slow moving armies that hoped you walked into the firing lane.

Scattering deepstrike wasn't about timing. It was about gambling or having the army with the options to mitigate.

I played 9th on a 4x6 recently and it gave a huge advantage to shooting. Providing more space isn't going to give you deeper tactical choice. It will just make guns better.

   
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I can say without hesitation and with complete certainty that if anything similar to AoS endless spells comes to W40K... It will be the day that I exit the hobby. And I'm not the only one to have this sentiment.

AoS is all about magic so it works for that system, that universe.

W40K is all about guns and archaic technology, magic is not and should not be a trope at the forefront of this system, this universe.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Yeah I just flatly disagree that 9th is less punishing on movement than other editions. the board got smaller, definitely, but so did the game by a turn, and the Scoring window got, generally, 2 turns shorter. This means that if you make a movement mistake with how primary works you give up potentially 2 turns of points out of your 4 possible instead of probably none before 8th and probably 1 of 6 in 8th. The smaller board just means slower armies that don't move an entire continent in one turn, especially the ones that are primarily melee (DG) get to actually participate in the game instead of desperately advancing 2-3 turns trying to get into position while eating a wall of bullets

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 16:32:47


 
   
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Gores wrote:
This means that if you make a movement mistake you give up potentially 2 turns of points out of your 4 possible instead of probably none before 8th and probably 1 of 6 in 8th.


I mean sure if you only play with one unit per objective.


 
   
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^ Would you mind explaining that a bit more? I don't really understand what you're trying to say
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I dislike the implementation of stratagems because too many of them are tactical and not strategic.


Could you define what you mean here? I've checked three thesaurus websites and two paper thesauruses (thesauri?), and they all agree that tactic and strategem are synonymous. I don't mean this as a language nazi burn- I respect your posts, so I know that there is a difference from your perspective- I'm just curious what it is.
   
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PenitentJake wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I dislike the implementation of stratagems because too many of them are tactical and not strategic.


Could you define what you mean here? I've checked three thesaurus websites and two paper thesauruses (thesauri?), and they all agree that tactic and strategem are synonymous. I don't mean this as a language nazi burn- I respect your posts, so I know that there is a difference from your perspective- I'm just curious what it is.


Typically when talking about wargames, strategy is your 'set game plan' and tactics are your decisions in the moment.

I construct my list to present my opponent with no infantry bodies off the bat (I plan to teleport my one un-transported infantry unit and transport the rest) and I design the list to have a turn 2 tempo setup, I.e. all my units will be in position to do their maximum damage on turn 2. I spend 3cp on a second detachment, 1cp on an extra relic, 2cp to deep strike my unit, and 1cp on an extra warlord trait.

I have spent 7/12 of my CP on Strategy. I'm gonna use those CP, and basically spend them, before I know ANYTHING about what my opponent is doing, at all.

Tactical CP use, would be when I come up against an opponent with good shooting, I decide to spend 2cp on a defensive stratagem to make my units -1 to hit.

OR, I come up against an opponent who's vulnerable to melee. I instead spend 2cp on an offensive stratagem to really put the damage in on my units that make it in turn 2.

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I'm having a hard time conceiving of a turn 1 movement blunder in older editions that wasn't either 1) you somehow decided they should look at your tank's ass or 2) you decided to expose yourself without having enough firepower to stop them from taking you off the table.

With the primary / secondary gun rules on vehicles plus no move and shoot on heavies you had ridiculously slow moving armies that hoped you walked into the firing lane.

Scattering deepstrike wasn't about timing. It was about gambling or having the army with the options to mitigate.

I played 9th on a 4x6 recently and it gave a huge advantage to shooting. Providing more space isn't going to give you deeper tactical choice. It will just make guns better.



Older editions had bigger tables, slower models, different and often fewer objectives, considerably fewer rules that allow units to move even faster, and many more pitfalls to movement and things like deepstriking. I didn't say previously that deepstriking was about timing before. NOW it IS all timing. The other variables have been completely removed.

Older editions - need that tank squadron to hit that key target turn 3? Didn't move 'em turn 1 cause you thought someone was going to enter a fire lane and they didn't? You're probably sunk.

Playing a mission with a single take and hold objective and you played to cagey and are now out of range when you need to get there? Ooops.

The very fact that models were slower and tables were bigger and the table (typically but not always) had fewer objectives is exactly why it mattered so much how you moved. Movement itself was a valuable resource you needed to spend carefully. Not so much anymore.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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 oni wrote:


W40K is all about guns and archaic technology, magic is not and should not be a trope at the forefront of this system, this universe.


yeah, man. Ever since they added the Warp and Chaos, 40k has really shifted from its roots..... I remember back when the Emperor was a little normal man with no magical powers whatsoever. Same with the eldar, they were much better when they didnt get all these psychic things added to them......

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 oni wrote:
I can say without hesitation and with complete certainty that if anything similar to AoS endless spells comes to W40K... It will be the day that I exit the hobby. And I'm not the only one to have this sentiment.

AoS is all about magic so it works for that system, that universe.

W40K is all about guns and archaic technology, magic is not and should not be a trope at the forefront of this system, this universe.


What, you can't envision a psyker in 40k unleashing an effect that sticks around & has a cool ass model to represent it?
   
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The issue is that while the Warp and Psykers have an important presence on the setting and on the tabletop, it isn't an uniform one.

Something like Endless Spells would make all the factions that lack Psykers feel excluded, and there is a surprising amount of them.
   
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ccs wrote:
 oni wrote:
I can say without hesitation and with complete certainty that if anything similar to AoS endless spells comes to W40K... It will be the day that I exit the hobby. And I'm not the only one to have this sentiment.

AoS is all about magic so it works for that system, that universe.

W40K is all about guns and archaic technology, magic is not and should not be a trope at the forefront of this system, this universe.


What, you can't envision a psyker in 40k unleashing an effect that sticks around & has a cool ass model to represent it?

Obviously not. Weird table effects like Ectoplasmic mists and Stasis fields were never in the game from the very beginning.

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 Tyran wrote:
The issue is that while the Warp and Psykers have an important presence on the setting and on the tabletop, it isn't an uniform one.

Something like Endless Spells would make all the factions that lack Psykers feel excluded, and there is a surprising amount of them.


Which ones? Admech, Tau, Drukhari and Knights?

Tau have psykers in the fluff, just give them IG auxiliaries.
Drukhari have ways to feth with magic
Admech and Knights are fine trading raw firepower for their access to magic.

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
The issue is that while the Warp and Psykers have an important presence on the setting and on the tabletop, it isn't an uniform one.

Something like Endless Spells would make all the factions that lack Psykers feel excluded, and there is a surprising amount of them.


Which ones? Admech, Tau, Drukhari and Knights?

Tau have psykers in the fluff, just give them IG auxiliaries.
Drukhari have ways to feth with magic
Admech and Knights are fine trading raw firepower for their access to magic.


Admech and Necrons would be perfectly thematic to "capture" Endless Powers in highly technologically advanced bottles, a la Kharadron Overlords doing the same thing in AoS.
   
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Gores wrote:
^ Would you mind explaining that a bit more? I don't really understand what you're trying to say


I mean you can't make many mistakes with movement because the game is incredibly forgiving unless you somehow have equal to or less units than there are objectives. If a unit you can't grab an objective chances are you have two other units who can.


 
   
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Rihgu wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
The issue is that while the Warp and Psykers have an important presence on the setting and on the tabletop, it isn't an uniform one.

Something like Endless Spells would make all the factions that lack Psykers feel excluded, and there is a surprising amount of them.


Which ones? Admech, Tau, Drukhari and Knights?

Tau have psykers in the fluff, just give them IG auxiliaries.
Drukhari have ways to feth with magic
Admech and Knights are fine trading raw firepower for their access to magic.


Admech and Necrons would be perfectly thematic to "capture" Endless Powers in highly technologically advanced bottles, a la Kharadron Overlords doing the same thing in AoS.


yeah, or just ctan powers or dark tech stuff

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Which ones? Admech, Tau, Drukhari and Knights?

Tau have psykers in the fluff, just give them IG auxiliaries.
Drukhari have ways to feth with magic
Admech and Knights are fine trading raw firepower for their access to magic.

You forgot about Necrons, Black Templars and Sisters of Battle.

And sure you could find ways around that, but would the players of such factions would want too? in the case Tau, Necrons and Admech, who are all about different takes on technology (new and innovative in the case of Tau, archaic and dogmatic in the case of Admech; and ancient and eldritch in the case of Necrons), such focus on magic would clash with their themes.

I mean, the fact that your answer regarding the Tau was to force them to take non-Tau might anger some Tau players.
   
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C'tan have control over the material world around them and could create lasting effects with established lore already.

Dhrukari used to have a black hole in a bottle iirc, so no problem there either with Looney Toon magic.

AdMech surely have some Dark Age tech lying around to unleash.

Black Templar, World Eaters and Sororitas get eternal prayers.

Knights are fine. A tank company won't get a psyker tank either. Even if that would be fittingly hilarious.

The faction is actually called T'au EMPIRE. It is about time the EMPIRE part gets explored (including psyker auxiliaries) instead of yet another bigger mecha.

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And IMHO it should be done by having an Auxiliaries codex, not by having an Auxiliaries take the spotlight of the Tau in their own codex.

Moreover I don't think I have ever heard of psykers even being present in auxiliary forces. Kroot do not seem to have psykers, and human psykers are not useful without psychic training, which the Tau lack.

   
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PenitentJake wrote:
Could you define what you mean here? I've checked three thesaurus websites and two paper thesauruses (thesauri?), and they all agree that tactic and strategem are synonymous. I don't mean this as a language nazi burn- I respect your posts, so I know that there is a difference from your perspective- I'm just curious what it is.
As scotsman said, one is a before the game thing, one is a during the game thing.

To put it another way, strategy is your overarching plan or set of goals. Tactics are the specific actions or steps you undertake to accomplish your strategy. What did I plan to do vs how do I enact/react to the current situation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 23:13:04


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 oni wrote:
I can say without hesitation and with complete certainty that if anything similar to AoS endless spells comes to W40K... It will be the day that I exit the hobby. And I'm not the only one to have this sentiment.

AoS is all about magic so it works for that system, that universe.

W40K is all about guns and archaic technology, magic is not and should not be a trope at the forefront of this system, this universe.


This feels silly.

The Warp is magic and is a gigantic part of why the universe exists as it does.


   
 
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