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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Its not going to do so... Yet

Actually It dosent need to do so... The cult of officialdom does the dirty work for the corporation.
   
Made in be
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:

An Astartes Chapter that favours CQC and makes sparse use of Tactical or Devastator Squads is easily done but you can't really do a CQC Guard army in the same way.


That's only because the rules fail to represent the diversity implied in the fluff. Astartes are the most "customizable" because GW pushes them. Guard are much more diverse in actuality; you have Guard regiments that focus entirely on artillery, for example.
Well, you *can* create an artillery regiment pretty well. Just take a bunch of artillery. If I'm not mistaken, there's also the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company rules from the Vigilus books that also do this. However, CQC Guard is more limited by wargear than anything else, and simply the units not really existing, though a proxy Catachan force might get away with it.

But yes, ultimately, Astartes are most "customisable", because GW made them so, because GW deems "customisability" to be a major part of the Space Marine factional identity.


BrianDavion wrote:
yeah except that to make your guard differant you need to have entirely differant mini's to represent that differance.


And before GW went full corporate IP tyrant, we could use historical minis to represent IG with divergent looks.
You still can. They won't stop you, unless you go into their stores and do it, but that was your choice to go into that store.


They/them

 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






CQC guard is not that hard and might even be funny:
Outsider detachment:
2 Death rider Commanders with Plasma (100)
2 DR Command Squads (170)
3 x 10 Death riders (600)
Nork Dedogg (60)


Vanguard detachment
1 Death rider Commanders with Plasma (50)
3 x 9 Bullgryns (945)
3 x Ogryn Bodyguard with Bullgryn plate and maul (180)
= 2125 points of pure melee guard if I'm not mistaken. And I haven't even included Crusaders, Hades Breaching drill and Sentinel Powerlifters...

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






TBF that's not Guard, it's Regiment specific units from the DKoK and Auxiliary units. It would be like saying Iron Hands have loads of Characters then listing Guilliman, Calgar, and Tigirius.
There are no generic units that any Regiment can take that are designed for CQC, which is fine since Guard fills the "endless waves of tanks, artillery, and men" niche well.
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






How is this not Guard? Bullgryns/Nork/Bodyguards are very very common as far as I know and DKOK is now a normal guard regiment. Just because the other regiments can not (yet?) take death riders does not magically make them "not guard". Or else a Blood Angels List with Sanguinary Guard would not be an SM List.

As much as some people negate it: Auxilia units are Guard. And have been for quite some time.

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Pyroalchi wrote:
How is this not Guard? Bullgryns/Nork/Bodyguards are very very common as far as I know and DKOK is now a normal guard regiment. Just because the other regiments can not (yet?) take death riders does not magically make them "not guard". Or else a Blood Angels List with Sanguinary Guard would not be an SM List.

As much as some people negate it: Auxilia units are Guard. And have been for quite some time.
The difference is that a BA list with Sanguinary Guard is still usually made of primarily ordinary SM units.

The presented melee list is made entirely of abhumans and unique units. To me, given the majority of models are DKoK specific, you can reasonably say "DKoK can run a melee list."
You can't as much say "Guard can run a melee list," at least not at 2k, since they lack the Death Riders. That's like saying Daemons can run a list where most of their models have guns and not specifying Tzeentch Daemons.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Pyroalchi wrote:
How is this not Guard? Bullgryns/Nork/Bodyguards are very very common as far as I know and DKOK is now a normal guard regiment. Just because the other regiments can not (yet?) take death riders does not magically make them "not guard".

One plastic kit doesn't make DKoK "normal Guard". We can assume that DKoK rules will be present in the next Astra Militarum Codex but that doesn't mean that any of the unique units will be in there nor does it mean that any subfaction other than DKoK can take them. Ultramarine armies cannot take Death Company or Wolf Guard.
As for the "Ogryns are Guard", yes and no. Abhumans are in the Codex but they are not Militarum Regiments, they are Auxiliaries. This thread is discussing diversity in factions as a Background/design concept, not a game concept. Ogryns Regiments can be attached to a regular Militarum Regiment but they are not the same thing. So when I say a Guard Regiment can't really be CQC focussed compared to SM, what I am saying is that Guardsmen can only have guns, unless they are some kind of Officer. There are no dedicated Guardsmen CQC units, which again is fine but it still limits the diversity of a Guard Regiment when it comes to culture/tactics.

Or else a Blood Angels List with Sanguinary Guard would not be an SM List.

It isn't a SM list. It's a Blood Angels list since it includes Blood Angels unique units. That's how subfactions work.
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Fair enough. I concede my point

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

Guard used to have rules that let you equip guardsmen infantry squads with "warrior weapons"- replaced the lasgun with laspistol and close combat weapon.

Those regiments exist in the background, but no longer on the tabletop. An example is the Karanak Skull Takers.

Laspistol + CCW also used to be much more common in the codex- veterans and command squads could take it as a loadout.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Haighus wrote:
Guard used to have rules that let you equip guardsmen infantry squads with "warrior weapons"- replaced the lasgun with laspistol and close combat weapon.

And yet they haven't been able to do it since the 4th Ed Codex, so not really relevant to the current Codex options nor the discussion on aesthetic diversity.

Those regiments exist in the background, but no longer on the tabletop. An example is the Karanak Skull Takers.

They do exist but you can't accurately portray them with models or rules and the Skull Takers are like 1/1000 for Regiments that don't use normal equipment.

Laspistol + CCW also used to be much more common in the codex- veterans and command squads could take it as a loadout.

Which Codex are you talking about here because I've had each Codex from 5th to 8th and while Command Squads could take Pistols and CCW, I certainly don't remember Veterans having the option.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/11 13:55:29


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Veterans had the option of las pistol + CCW in the 3.5 Guard codex.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 Gert wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
Guard used to have rules that let you equip guardsmen infantry squads with "warrior weapons"- replaced the lasgun with laspistol and close combat weapon.

And yet they haven't been able to do it since the 4th Ed Codex, so not really relevant to the current Codex options nor the discussion on aesthetic diversity.

Those regiments exist in the background, but no longer on the tabletop. An example is the Karanak Skull Takers.

They do exist but you can't accurately portray them with models or rules and the Skull Takers are like 1/1000 for Regiments that don't use normal equipment.

Laspistol + CCW also used to be much more common in the codex- veterans and command squads could take it as a loadout.

Which Codex are you talking about here because I've had each Codex from 5th to 8th and while Command Squads could take Pistols and CCW, I certainly don't remember Veterans having the option.


It isn't relevant for current codex options, but is definitely relevant for aesthetic diversity- there are still going to be Guard armies floating around from that era. Regardimg SoB, there isn't the historic diversity of designs as well as a lack of current designs.

I actually had a veteran squad with laspistols and ccw from the 3.5/4th ed codex. I do wish we could get some of those options back- the carapace armour has basically disappeared too.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Are we considering weapon loadouts "diversity" now? I think I see two different models when I look at a Catachan vs a Cadian, despite what they are armed with. Show me two stock SoB models that look like completely different models with the same loadout.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we considering weapon loadouts "diversity" now? I think I see two different models when I look at a Catachan vs a Cadian, despite what they are armed with. Show me two stock SoB models that look like completely different models with the same loadout.
Would you consider Assault Intercessors distinct from regular Intercessors?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




No, they are both Space Marines. I was referring to specific Models. A good example is "Is a Blood Angels Intercessor with Bolt Rifle look the Same as a Blood Angels Intercessor with Assault Bolt Rifle?

See what I mean? Load out does not equal diversity. Diversity is a completely different model. So an Old Marine vs a Nu Marine. That is diversity. A Devastator vs a Assault Marine.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No, they are both Space Marines. I was referring to specific Models. A good example is "Is a Blood Angels Intercessor with Bolt Rifle look the Same as a Blood Angels Intercessor with Assault Bolt Rifle?

See what I mean? Load out does not equal diversity. Diversity is a completely different model. So an Old Marine vs a Nu Marine. That is diversity. A Devastator vs a Assault Marine.
A Devastator and Assault Marine have different loadouts. That's the only difference, unless you also give the Assault Marine a Jump Pack.

And while I certainly agree that Intercessors, Bolt Rifles, and Intercessors, AutoBolt Rifles are functionally the same, I would consider Assault Intercessors distinct. Minor kit changes does not a diverse range make, but major ones do.

So I would consider IG Vets armed for CC diverse when alongside IG Vets armed for shooting. Your mileage may vary, as this is subjective.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 JNAProductions wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No, they are both Space Marines. I was referring to specific Models. A good example is "Is a Blood Angels Intercessor with Bolt Rifle look the Same as a Blood Angels Intercessor with Assault Bolt Rifle?

See what I mean? Load out does not equal diversity. Diversity is a completely different model. So an Old Marine vs a Nu Marine. That is diversity. A Devastator vs a Assault Marine.
A Devastator and Assault Marine have different loadouts. That's the only difference, unless you also give the Assault Marine a Jump Pack.

And while I certainly agree that Intercessors, Bolt Rifles, and Intercessors, AutoBolt Rifles are functionally the same, I would consider Assault Intercessors distinct. Minor kit changes does not a diverse range make, but major ones do.

So I would consider IG Vets armed for CC diverse when alongside IG Vets armed for shooting. Your mileage may vary, as this is subjective.


I see your point, and thank you for explaining it further. I think you have a valid point.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Zealot




South East UK

Can you? Yes, Is it common, no.

Realistically in the lore sisters have fanatical zealousness and devotion to the emperor & imperial creed, faith is everything, faith keeps you alive amidst the horrors of the galaxy.

As for your point about wolf cloaks as a mark of respect for the fallen etc - Our Martyred Lady used to be, black armor, black cloth, white trim and red cloth on the insides of the tabbards, that changed when Saint Katherine died to the red it is today.

They don't have much wiggle room, as the fact is they're so fanatically uniform with their indoctrination / display of faith and guidelines. Pinning it as heresy for deviating due to necessity is one thing, doing penance for your sins is entirely more likely. You've only to look as far as the repentia.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






The change from red to black robes for Our Martyred Lady was made following the Third War for Armageddon - so barely a couple of hundred years ago.

(And makes it a bit odd that Celestians retain the black for some reason).
   
Made in gb
Crazed Zealot




South East UK

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The change from red to black robes for Our Martyred Lady was made following the Third War for Armageddon - so barely a couple of hundred years ago.

(And makes it a bit odd that Celestians retain the black for some reason).


Aye but my point is the differences, even in deaths brought about by prominent members of the order, change as a mark of respect for the fallen is minor.

TLDR: OP should do what they want with their minis, but, as someone else said, sisters are very much a uniform faction.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So I think we are all agreed here, aside from armor color and hair color, there is zero diversity in the Sisters model line?

Not like say, Catachan vs Vostoyan.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





that depends how you define diversity

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/12 19:38:04


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends how you define diversity
That be the crux of the matter, don't it?

I think we can, speaking in broad terms, say that Sisters are one of the less-diverse lines GW produces. Perhaps not the worst in that regard, but certainly nowhere near IG or SM.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Aren't Tau the worst? Or Nids? There is no variant forms of dress or uniform in either of those factions. It's all just paint scheme and basing for diversity.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Aren't Tau the worst? Or Nids? There is no variant forms of dress or uniform in either of those factions. It's all just paint scheme and basing for diversity.

Tau and SoB are pretty much in the same boat, excepting that there were at least a wide variety of cosmetic battlesuit variants for Tau (I think a lot of this is OOP nowadays?).

Nids have loads of variety, but they are ferociously practical and any variations come with specific advantages and usually game rules. Carnifexes have several carapace designs, for example. The basic Gaunts are a bit bland tbf, but even Genestealers have a couple of different designs kicking around.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Zealot




South East UK

 Haighus wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Aren't Tau the worst? Or Nids? There is no variant forms of dress or uniform in either of those factions. It's all just paint scheme and basing for diversity.

Tau and SoB are pretty much in the same boat, excepting that there were at least a wide variety of cosmetic battlesuit variants for Tau (I think a lot of this is OOP nowadays?).

Nids have loads of variety, but they are ferociously practical and any variations come with specific advantages and usually game rules. Carnifexes have several carapace designs, for example. The basic Gaunts are a bit bland tbf, but even Genestealers have a couple of different designs kicking around.


Id not say nid variation is yoo bad from a conversion / obscure model standing, it may be a necessary evolution for the consumption of a particular planet before they're re harvested along with the biomass. Nids are probably one of the least constrained I'd have said, along with greenskins. But I'm not educated on tyranid lore, so it's a very vague assumption on my part.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Green skins have multiple variants that you can play, especially now with Beast Snaggas.

Nids don't have any variation between hive fleets aside from paint scheme. There is no iconography that makes Behemoth distinct from Leviathan. Same with the Tau. There is zero difference between a fire warrior of any sept except for color.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I mean, the endless swarm of faceless beasts that recycles its dead back into the biomass pool where it gets spawned again doesn't get loads of diversity. Almost like it's intentionally designed that way.

As for the T'au. A small insular empire with a strict caste system that doesn't allow freedom between the castes or any significant variation from the T'au'va. The diversity in the T'au comes from its auxiliary allies but that's a dead fish in terms of models. So in background it's there but in model terms less so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 11:26:55


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





would really like to see more tau auxilleries, sadly Tau have been flanderized into "MOAR SUITS!" everytime a new tau model comes out. which is a shame. TBH if I was a mini designer I'd love the subject race aspect of the Tau, a chance to design some wild and batty new aliens in a single "one and done" box? sounds like a paradise for creativity

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

BrianDavion wrote:
would really like to see more tau auxilleries, sadly Tau have been flanderized into "MOAR SUITS!" everytime a new tau model comes out. which is a shame. TBH if I was a mini designer I'd love the subject race aspect of the Tau, a chance to design some wild and batty new aliens in a single "one and done" box? sounds like a paradise for creativity


Yep I feel the same way - sad really that they jst keep making biger and more stupid looking suits - the Stromsurge being the depths - only matched by Grey Knights Baby carriers and Centurions.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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