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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




At this point the OP feels like they created the thread to stir the pot.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Why are SOB models particularly difficult to convert? Dont they allow for a head swap for instance?

I swear that I remember a few people saying SOB heads could be used for depicting FSM... So why cant the proccess be reversed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
At this point the OP feels like they created the thread to stir the pot.


Not at all, I simply like to make questions and led the conversation flow while striking an issue from different angles... Its called the socratic method... Ive heard that his inventor was banned for life from the forum where he was trolling arround.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 16:31:24


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:
Why are SOB models particularly difficult to convert? Dont they allow for a head swap for instance?

I swear that I remember a few people saying SOB heads could be used for depicting FSM... So why cant the proccess be reversed?


Head swaps are only a small part of it. If that's thr extent of your 'conversion' work this thread is done; they're pretty low-effort projects.

Head swaps are about the easiest thing to be fair. But you were suggesting far more extensive remodelling. going with the fenris/barbarian theme you brought up, for examlke Now if your swapping out bolters for axes and filing off all the fleur de lises tabards and church iconography, and replacing with pelts and runestones, and reposing the arms, you're investing in serious greenstuff and conversion work. Difficult? Maybe. Time consuming? Ye gods yes. Expensive? Won't be cheap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/31 16:38:36


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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Plains World

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no law saying you can't paint your armies however you choose, and if you are talking in the fluff, there are multiple examples in the books of sisters with dark skin, or extremely pale skin. Given that the majority of humanity exists on planets outside our solar system, it's not hard to see why there wouldn't be say, Asian SoB, as there is no "Asia" on planet Zeebes 17, which doesn't even have a sun, if it wasn't a hive world in the first place.

So yeah, don't look at the SoB as if they ALL come from Terran stock. They don't. Most come from different worlds that have radically different evolutionary paths.


This. There are at least one million worlds in the Imperium. That's a lotta different kinds of people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 16:41:38


 
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:So if a Squads of SOB that have been isolated 40 years from the broader IOM happend to wear a bear cape to remember a particularly strong fight against the heresy and to honour their fallen... they will be killed on sight without question when they reunite with their order because they are themselve heretics?
For what it's worth, 40 years is ridiculously short to have abandoned previous practices. 400 years might be a better bet.

Killed on sight? No. Possibly all inducted as Repentia if the judge deems their infractions too drastic? Possibly. Again, they're your models. Do what you want to them.

What happends when some part of the Sorotitas armor breaks and she dont have available spare parts? those she commit suicide to preserve the "holy symmetry"?
If their armour breaks, then they requisition more. If they can't requisition more, how come they can requisition a whole different type of power armour? Would your Sisters even *have* a uniform aesthetic? If so, how and why, if their whole thing is because they can't repair their armour?

Again - these can all be answered, if you *want* to.

If SOB dont have more white dye... do they inmolate to prevent such a great dishonor to the IOM and the Church?
Even though it's common knowledge that not all Sisters have white hair?

Is there any sort of reason that between the theory and the practices of the SOB their is not some level of contradiction? After all they are just regular humans, with regular fellings, not servitors.
But that's the thing - they're not expected to have human reactions and feelings, because they're also indoctrinated and mentally conditioned to serve the Emperor's Will, and to abandon many of those human feelings. They're servants of the Ecclesiarchy and Emperor first and foremost, not basic humans. That's 40k for you.

Gert wrote:You've been told so many times now that you can do what you want with your stuff but that the background/models for SoB make it difficult to do so. That's the answer to your question.
Exactly. OP, you go do what you like - you got an answer to your question. End of story.

Vatsetis wrote:Why are SOB models particularly difficult to convert? Dont they allow for a head swap for instance?
Headswap? Sure. But a headswap alone doesn't change the very specific aesthetic design that they have.

Unlike Space Marines, whose design lends nicely to modification and embellishment (given how most Astartes models are quite plain and unadorned), Sisters have far more trappings and other designs on their armour. Their shoulder pads are less flat and blank than Space Marines, eliminating the easy opportunities for Chapter badges. Their robes prevent any kind of "tacticool" or minimalist design, which is only an issue on *some* Astartes models. They don't have the same customisablity afforded by highly modular sculpts that Astartes have historically had - while the Sisters sculpts are lovely and definitely not "monopose", they simply don't have the range of bits that Astartes do.

They're difficult to convert because their design influences are so strongly baked into their faction design. It'd be like trying to remove much of the Egyptian/death/skeleton theming from current Necrons, which is very difficult to do. Could you do it differently? Sure - using death mask iconography and cutting off all the ankh symbols might be a start, but there's a lot of work there.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
At this point the OP feels like they created the thread to stir the pot.
Not at all, I simply like to make questions and led the conversation flow while striking an issue from different angles...
You make questions, but never listen to the answer. That's called stirring the pot, and being intellectually dishonest.

Your question was answered, and the topic resolved, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
Head swaps are about the easiest thing to be fair. But you were suggesting far more extensive remodelling. going with the fenris/barbarian theme you brought up, for examlke Now if your swapping out bolters for axes and filing off all the fleur de lises tabards and church iconography, and replacing with pelts and runestones, and reposing the arms, you're investing in serious greenstuff and conversion work. Difficult? Maybe. Time consuming? Ye gods yes. Expensive? Won't be cheap.
Exactly - there's a lot of effort to be put in redesigning Sisters, because of how strongly their aesthetic is established. Can you change that? Yes, of course you can. Is it incentivised, or made any easier for you? No, of course not.


That's what we all mean by "Sisters aren't as customisable as other factions" - it's not that you can't do it. It's that doing so would be very difficult in comparison to other factions, because the Sisters have a very strong, very distinctive aesthetic that doesn't lend well to customisation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 16:51:37



They/them

 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






In terms of their armour, heraldry etc compared to Astartes? They simply start off less individualistic.

When they first came to the fore with Vandire, they were a single order. Post that period, they became formalised as a (the?) military wing of the Ecclesiarchy, and split into their Convents.

As each of those Convents is still ultimately beholden to the Ecclesiarchy, they’re more uniform than Astartes, who can get away with more because “we’re The Emperor’s grandsons, and our progenitor Chapter’s history goes further back than your faith”.

The church, the church is the thing.

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Regarding recruitment: I'm just reading "Cain's last stand" again. There it is mentioned that the local Schola Progenium on Perlia (near the Damocles Gulf so far from the usual centers) has a single Veteran Sister of Battle who kind of picks out suitable candidates, starts to train them before selecting those that will finally join the Adepta Sororitas.

Of course that's just a novel, but it kind of makes sense that a lot of the Scholas have the odd SoB collecting novices

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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






That sounds pretty logical. From the Ghost's series, we know Gaunt's Schola "headmaster" was a retired Commissar (retired in that he had no legs), so it would stand to reason that there would be a Sororitas and Inquisitorial representatives as well in at least some of the Schola.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Well certainly if SOB are ment to have such a high degree of uniformity that cant be achieve through conventional means in a space so huge and disjointed as the IOM and with the technological and bureocratic constrains of the IOM... So probably its achieve in a supernatural manner and the faith of the SOB creates a common gestalt similar to the one created by the orks that also seem to behave all in a similar manner and follow the group behaviour.

Funny how the best troops of the IOM (SM, SOB, etc) are all but imperfect copies of the Orks.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I don't know how to stress this anymore. There is zero prohabition, Lore or otherwise, IN ANY SENSE of the word, from making your army dolls, YOUR personal vision. It's called Open play. You can make them literal FEMALE SPACE WOLVES of the EBON CHALICE faction on ULTRAMAR, trained by the GREY KNIGHTS of TITAN. No one cares. They are YOUR toy soldiers. If you want to play by the official rule set, then that's where you get into difficulties.
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:Well certainly if SOB are ment to have such a high degree of uniformity that cant be achieve through conventional means in a space so huge and disjointed as the IOM and with the technological and bureocratic constrains of the IOM...
No-one said that.


Are you done trolling? Can we call this thread concluded?


They/them

 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




How those exactly a fur cape for a SOB unit defies the "official rule set"?

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:
How those exactly a fur cape for a SOB unit defies the "official rule set"?



Fur cape is legit - the 3rd Ed Canoness had a fur cape.

But how many sisters compatible fur capes exist if you wanted them all to have them?

And does adding fur capes really change the aesthetics all that much if you’ve left all the iconography on?

And if you’re removing all the Catholicism inspired iconography, that’s a significant amount of work.

Also, by nature of the faction’s archetype and place in the background (nuns with guns), most of the variations are going to be along the lines of ‘here’s the local variant of emperor worship we follow’ which, while there are many in the Imperium, is fairly narrow in scope
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Well I never actually said I wanted... "non catholic" SOB... Quite the opposite, if you read my original post.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:Well I never actually said I wanted... "non catholic" SOB... Quite the opposite, if you read my original post.


You also said later on page 1 'outside of their main aesthetic'.... which is very much the church trappings.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/31 18:15:10


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
Well I never actually said I wanted... "non catholic" SOB... Quite the opposite, if you read my original post.
"Catholic", in the way you used it, isn't an aesthetic ideal.

When the rest of us refer to Catholicism, we are referring to the aesthetic brand of Catholicism that the Sisters of Battle specifically emulate. Sisters of Battle aren't "Catholic" by religion or by doctrine, like the examples you give in the OP, but are Catholic by specific aesthetic, which not all of the religious Catholics you mention follow.


They/them

 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:
Well I never actually said I wanted... "non catholic" SOB... Quite the opposite, if you read my original post.


Catholic here is shorthand for “aesthetics inspired by the modern (British) perception of medieval and Renaissance European Catholicism”, but the latter is a mouthful.

Just like modern catholics can have many different aesthetics, so can Emperor worship. But the models only portray a particular one which aligns with what most (anglosphere) people think of when an aesthetic is described as ‘Catholic’.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Fine... My initial post had some level of ambiguity since its was sort of an open question... But latter my reasoning has evolve more into adding rather than changing... Think more of a group of SOB on a long holiday and collecting souvenirs rather than departing from the church.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 19:36:32


 
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:Fine... My initial post had some level of ambiguity since its was sort of an open question... But latter my reasoning has evolve more into adding rather than changing... Think more of a group of SOB on a long holiday and collecting souvenirs rather than departing from the church.
Yeah... the Sisters don't really do that *as presented*.

Now, you are free to go ahead and do that yourself, but as you *asked a question*, you should know that the answer to that question is "no, the Sisters don't really do that, because they are religious zealots who are indoctrinated since childhood to view their lives only in service to the Emperor and Ecclesiarchy", and "collecting souvenirs" isn't really part of that memo. But, as always you are free to create your own Sisterhood if you so wish to - however, as you asked, this is not an aspect of their design that GW readily facilitates for.

Do you understand that? Or will you misrepresent that again?


They/them

 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Sisters have a regimented look because they are not independent armed forces. Indeed, they’re a military wing of a notoriously conservative organisation of religious nutters.

They’re religious fanatics, indoctrinated as previously mentioned from early childhood. Their armour, robes and equipment are holy to them. They do not deviate from it.

Astartes? They’re under their own steam. Nobody can order a Chapter to respond to anything. They can only petition for aid. Even the High Lords of Terra could receive a “no, bog off” answer from any given Chapter.

They’re warrior lodges or warrior cults. Their traditions are their own - especially the Progenitor Chapters, given they kinda predate The Imperium (they were part of the final pacification and unification of Terra).

They have a level of freedom which is stupendously rare within The Imperium. Sure, an Inquisitor might harbour concerns about some of the more outrageously garbed Chapters (such as Space Wolves). But there’s not a damned thing they can do about it, provided the Chapter is proven loyal.

There is no power governing the Chapters in the way Sisters are.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Why do all the post have to be "astartes centric"??

I know they are the marketing hook of the setting, but perhaps not everything has to revolce arround the "WASP"s of the 41st Millenium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:Fine... My initial post had some level of ambiguity since its was sort of an open question... But latter my reasoning has evolve more into adding rather than changing... Think more of a group of SOB on a long holiday and collecting souvenirs rather than departing from the church.
Yeah... the Sisters don't really do that *as presented*.

Now, you are free to go ahead and do that yourself, but as you *asked a question*, you should know that the answer to that question is "no, the Sisters don't really do that, because they are religious zealots who are indoctrinated since childhood to view their lives only in service to the Emperor and Ecclesiarchy", and "collecting souvenirs" isn't really part of that memo. But, as always you are free to create your own Sisterhood if you so wish to - however, as you asked, this is not an aspect of their design that GW readily facilitates for.

Do you understand that? Or will you misrepresent that again?


I understand that you dont understand whats my point... Im undecided if its because of you reading thinks literally and without nuance or for some other more esoteric reason.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 17:31:56


 
   
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No other faction has the diversity of Marines so when you ask about why faction X doesn't have similar options, people explain why using comparisons. They're the blank slate and the faction that people compare others to when talking about ease of conversion or custom background.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Ahhh ok Now I Understand...

... ASTARTES = Kustum Boyz... NICE!!!

Rest of the factions are more defined... And Sororitas are defined by their strict adherence to Dogma... Which is express in their Speudo Gorthic faux Catholic design... If they dont follow that they are no longer official SOB (their are a fan proyect like Grot Guard).

Its all cristal clear now. Thank you for your enlightment

   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
No other faction has the diversity of Marines so when you ask about why faction X doesn't have similar options, people explain why using comparisons. They're the blank slate and the faction that people compare others to when talking about ease of conversion or custom background.
There's no real reason for that to be the case from a background perspective and is just a function of Marines being popular. It's easy to imagine the same amount of "cultural" variance among Orks, Eldar, IG, Chaos etc. Marines themselves just get so much attention that any differences wind up being highly publicized, codified and scrutinized.

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@ Vatsetis: I think the answer here were a lot more moderated than that. Lots of posters including Sgt Smudge highlighted that you can do whatever you want with your sisters. The point of dissent just seems to be that the official pictures painted of the SoB are rather fixed in the current aestetic.

And I fully agree. I myself might add some Dora Milaje styled sisters to my collection if I find the parts, as Fezzik said: they are MY toy soldiers and I can do what I want, but I understand why they as an Imperial faction can be really fixed to their aestetic.

As you criticized the Marine centric argumentation I would like to give two other examples: Imperial Guard and Skitarii. The Guard is first and foremost a military body focussed on performance and their lore and artwork depicts them with a lot of diversity in looks and equipment. While they have priests attached, they are not really bound to a strict, religious fundamentalistic body. Skitarii on the other hand are and they are shown with a remarkably consistent aestetic throughout the galaxy. And with them it's not only the equipment, it seems to me that the vast majority of official artwork is limited to the colors red, black and white for their robes.

So maybe there is some truth to the argument about religious narrow mindedness and uniformous appearance

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 18:18:37


~5750 build and painted 
   
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Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

What's odd though about the Ad Mech is that the priests themselves aren't actually uniform; tech-priests had all sorts of different enhancements and cybernetic components.

I don't think even the skitarii were that uniform, that's a by-product of being turned into a model line and GW's insistence on making the art look exactly like the models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 19:05:00


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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Insectum7 wrote:
There's no real reason for that to be the case from a background perspective and is just a function of Marines being popular. It's easy to imagine the same amount of "cultural" variance among Orks, Eldar, IG, Chaos etc. Marines themselves just get so much attention that any differences wind up being highly publicized, codified and scrutinized.

I disagree with this quite a bit.
From a miniature design perspective, Marines are blank slates with lots of flat open panels and easily interchangeable parts. Even if you aren't using larger parts like shoulder pads or helmets, smaller parts like pelts or pendants fit better on the larger canvas Marine models offer.
You could argue that Marines are popular so they get more kits which means they have more presence which means they're more popular, which to a degree I agree with. But then how would you explain the Marines being consistently popular from 1st all the way through to 9th? Yes, there would have come a point of no return regarding releases but I don't think that would have occurred until at least 5th Ed.

From a background perspective, most Imperial organisations are heavily centralised or are too small to effectively convey mass customisation.
Marines fill the gap by being beholden to no particular group, free from outside interference, there are quite a lot of them, and ultimately able to pursue whatever culture they want. A Chapter descended from the Ultramarines could be as compliant and similar to their parent Chapter, like the Aurora Chapter or Sons of Guilliman, or they could be more deviant, like the Emperor's Spears or Angels of Fire. There are no holy texts or sacred rules that Chapters must follow, even the Codex Astartes is a controversial document that is often followed by many Chapters as guidelines rather than hard and fast rules. They don't need to be presented as male or need to be cyborgs/half-machines.

I'm not saying you can't have Orks that love guns more than combat or a Guard Regiment that looks like Muskateers than Cadians but Marines just do homebrew so much easier.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






The Skitarii described in Titanicus are nothing like the current model line.

The artwork always skews towards the current models; which is why there isn't a whole lot of new artwork featuring Mordian ​or Tallarn styles Guardsmen, for example.
   
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Skitarii are completely different from one forgeworld to another. As above, the two forces in Titanicus look down on each other thinking the other looks barbaric.

And Skitarii mentioned in the Lords of Mars series are nothing like the current model line.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Vatsetis: I think the answer here were a lot more moderated than that. Lots of posters including Sgt Smudge highlighted that you can do whatever you want with your sisters. The point of dissent just seems to be that the official pictures painted of the SoB are rather fixed in the current aestetic.

And I fully agree. I myself might add some Dora Milaje styled sisters to my collection if I find the parts, as Fezzik said: they are MY toy soldiers and I can do what I want, but I understand why they as an Imperial faction can be really fixed to their aestetic.

As you criticized the Marine centric argumentation I would like to give two other examples: Imperial Guard and Skitarii. The Guard is first and foremost a military body focussed on performance and their lore and artwork depicts them with a lot of diversity in looks and equipment. While they have priests attached, they are not really bound to a strict, religious fundamentalistic body. Skitarii on the other hand are and they are shown with a remarkably consistent aestetic throughout the galaxy. And with them it's not only the equipment, it seems to me that the vast majority of official artwork is limited to the colors red, black and white for their robes.

So maybe there is some truth to the argument about religious narrow mindedness and uniformous appearance


Good point. On the other hand even amongst the most hellbent religious zealots communities (if they are big or exist for a long time, both of which apply a fortiori to SOB) you can see a level of diversity both in appearance and in practice . But I certainly understand that "the idea" of what a SOB is ment to be is fixed... I was talking about something different, but unfortunatly the point has been lost along the thread... There is no use in trying to rescue it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 19:37:55


 
   
 
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