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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Is there any reason why Sorotitas cant be diverse likes astartes or astra militarum... Sure they all follow the same faith and have the same armor... But cant they be diverse (in lore and aesthetics) as the other main IOM factions... Afterall Catholics (main inspiration for SOB) in Africa, America, Ireland, Italy or Poland dont look or behave in similar manner outside some common features?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 18:08:51


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The Decree Passive requires the Sisters to be so obviously female because the wording specifically states the Ecclesiarchy cannot have men under arms. If there was any ambiguity to the Sisters then the Ecclesiarchy would be breaking the law.
I mean you can paint them however you want and add whatever Bitz to make them custom but they aren't the army for mass customisation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 18:24:10


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Well I didnt ment diverse regarding gender (yes they are ment to be women) but rather regarding cultural background, etnicity, etc

Is there any lore reason why the cant be costumizable like AM regiments??

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 18:30:15


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





GW has shown Sisters with different skin complexions if that's what you're referring to.

At Gert's point, the models themselves already have piles of iconography, making conversion work difficult.

Lore-wise I don't see anything preventing a Sisters Ordo Minoris from taking some traits from a culture where they're stationed. They are all trained through the Schola Progenium, so that probably limits what influence any given culture has on them. But afterwards? Just as long as they follow the rest of the rules, I don't see any reason why they couldn't adapt.
   
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Repentia Mistress




They all go through the same training and indoctrination so there's going to be a lot of monoculture, but they could have physical adaptations within accepted limits, like marines. They come from every planet, after all.

   
Made in de
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In theory I could see something like the Dora Milaje from Marvels Black Panther or an order of sisters armored like samurai work really well aestetically.
Most probably there will be some that disagree or say it hurts their immersion in the game, but "armored female religious zealots" doesn't have to be identical with fleur de lys medieval european armor.
[Thumb - Dora Milaje.png]

[Thumb - female samurai.jpg]


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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cool photos indeed, those any 3rd party do adecuate models??
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






IDK but if I end up making SOB there is going to definitely be at least some of the recent Ghamak models that turn them into a super over the top soviet red army because that just fits them to a T.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





In as much diversity as the Ecclesiarchy allow them to have. The issue is that Sisters are much more centrally organised than Space Marines, who are diverse by virtue of being able to rule their own independent fiefdoms, and less numerous than Guardsmen, who are diverse because trying to create some unified single type of Guardsman is both logistically and culturally nightmarish.

Sisters are much more closely tied to the Ecclesiarchy and to their major convents and holy sites - they exist because of the Ecclesiarchy, not the other way around, and therefore are very closely tied to the decrees and edicts that it presents. As a result, they are less likely to have that same free reign that many other Imperial organisations have (such as the Space Marines, Guardsmen, Knights, AdMech, and Inquisition).

From an aesthetic design perspective too, Sisters are very limited in their options as well. Their designs are much more ornate, their details less conducive to the easy modification and variety that Space Marines have been afforded. Sisters are very strongly (and consistently) drawn from specifically European Catholicism and Medieval/Renaissance trappings - unlike the variety of "holy warrior" traditions that Space Marines find themselves drawn from - therefore, drawing from other branches of Catholicism isn't what we see GW doing with their specific design cues for the Sororitas. Even *if* the Sisters' lore was more conducive to them being decentralised and being able to create radically different religious and cultural identities, their model range and GW's aesthetic design for them has not supported this, in the same way that Necrons are strongly linked specifically to Egyptian designs and cultural coding. Maybe you *could* create a Necron dynasty which more closely reflects the culture of, say, feudal Europe, but aesthetically, their design does not reflect this, and therefore are not inherently as diverse a faction as Space Marines or Guardsmen. This isn't to say that creativity is impossible, but that it is simply not as promoted in certain factions as it is in others, and you would be actively fighting against the factional aesthetic design established if you were to deviate too far from that core design.


TL;DR - due to how they are described as a faction, and how GW treats them on a design standpoint, Sisters are not as conducive to player creativity as certain other factions.


EDIT: Oh, and in regard to ethnicity? There is no reason in the first place that any Imperial faction would be mono-ethnic. GW definitely don't present Sisters as mono-ethnic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 18:56:06



They/them

 
   
Made in us
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There is no law saying you can't paint your armies however you choose, and if you are talking in the fluff, there are multiple examples in the books of sisters with dark skin, or extremely pale skin. Given that the majority of humanity exists on planets outside our solar system, it's not hard to see why there wouldn't be say, Asian SoB, as there is no "Asia" on planet Zeebes 17, which doesn't even have a sun, if it wasn't a hive world in the first place.

So yeah, don't look at the SoB as if they ALL come from Terran stock. They don't. Most come from different worlds that have radically different evolutionary paths.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Pyroalchi wrote:In theory I could see something like the Dora Milaje from Marvels Black Panther or an order of sisters armored like samurai work really well aestetically.
Most probably there will be some that disagree or say it hurts their immersion in the game, but "armored female religious zealots" doesn't have to be identical with fleur de lys medieval european armor.
Again, these are great examples, but in what GW offer in their models and their own artwork, Sisters are predominantly presented with European/Catholic trappings. That's not to say that such things *must* be adhered to, and I would encourage people to do whatever they like that looks coolest - but it cannot be understated that you would be taking a large diversion away from the aesthetics offered by GW, and as a result, I cannot say that it is just as open to diversity as Space Marines are, which have historically been (and still remain) open to customisation and different designs, both within and without GW's spheres of influence.

Is it *possible*? Yes! Is it as encouraged as certain other factions? Certainly not - hence my pointing out that Sisters should not be compared to other factions as a beacon of creativity, as it is not encouraged.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no law saying you can't paint your armies however you choose, and if you are talking in the fluff, there are multiple examples in the books of sisters with dark skin, or extremely pale skin. Given that the majority of humanity exists on planets outside our solar system, it's not hard to see why there wouldn't be say, Asian SoB, as there is no "Asia" on planet Zeebes 17, which doesn't even have a sun, if it wasn't a hive world in the first place.

So yeah, don't look at the SoB as if they ALL come from Terran stock. They don't. Most come from different worlds that have radically different evolutionary paths.


True, but, your asian-inspired sisters of battle DO all have to be covered in fleurs-de-lys and eagles and the various mishmash of random cultures that people vaguely throw together and point at and scream "WEST, THIS IS THE WEST OVER HERE ITS WHAT WESTERN CIVILIZATION LOOKS LIKE"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Pretty much every single army can be more diverse visually and culturally. This is present in the lore and at times Gw have done this in models - Eg they've had several different visual styles for Imperial Guard over the years.

However in general GW has finite resources and making the exact same army with slightly different visual styles over and over and over again doesn't tend to work well (marines are an extreme exception and even there most share the same core models). Because in the end its the same army; same mechanics being spread over more and more releases.


So they pick 1 design and go with it.

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pyroalchi wrote:In theory I could see something like the Dora Milaje from Marvels Black Panther or an order of sisters armored like samurai work really well aestetically.
Most probably there will be some that disagree or say it hurts their immersion in the game, but "armored female religious zealots" doesn't have to be identical with fleur de lys medieval european armor.
Again, these are great examples, but in what GW offer in their models and their own artwork, Sisters are predominantly presented with European/Catholic trappings. That's not to say that such things *must* be adhered to, and I would encourage people to do whatever they like that looks coolest - but it cannot be understated that you would be taking a large diversion away from the aesthetics offered by GW, and as a result, I cannot say that it is just as open to diversity as Space Marines are, which have historically been (and still remain) open to customisation and different designs, both within and without GW's spheres of influence.

Is it *possible*? Yes! Is it as encouraged as certain other factions? Certainly not - hence my pointing out that Sisters should not be compared to other factions as a beacon of creativity, as it is not encouraged.



I fully agree with what Sgt_Smudge said here and in the quote before. I should have added in my comment that I look at it from a "collectors perspective", thinking that while GW follows a clear design philosophy with SoB (and is very unlikely to divert from it), I think that if one wants to explore the concept of "power armored baseline human female" with a non-western-medieval aestetic there are several cool ways to do so.

Funny enough I have considered adding a squad or two of sisters to my african themed Guard army but refrained because their european design would fit poorly (I only collect and haven't played yet). I never thought about the Dora Milaje, but that might be an idea I pick up for myself, if I find fitting parts. So for that already thank you to the OP.

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
IDK but if I end up making SOB there is going to definitely be at least some of the recent Ghamak models that turn them into a super over the top soviet red army because that just fits them to a T.


Do you have link to those space soviet girls??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no law saying you can't paint your armies however you choose, and if you are talking in the fluff, there are multiple examples in the books of sisters with dark skin, or extremely pale skin. Given that the majority of humanity exists on planets outside our solar system, it's not hard to see why there wouldn't be say, Asian SoB, as there is no "Asia" on planet Zeebes 17, which doesn't even have a sun, if it wasn't a hive world in the first place.

So yeah, don't look at the SoB as if they ALL come from Terran stock. They don't. Most come from different worlds that have radically different evolutionary paths.


True, but, your asian-inspired sisters of battle DO all have to be covered in fleurs-de-lys and eagles and the various mishmash of random cultures that people vaguely throw together and point at and scream "WEST, THIS IS THE WEST OVER HERE ITS WHAT WESTERN CIVILIZATION LOOKS LIKE"


Do they really have to be that way?? Is there any strong lore reason for it to be done that way??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pyroalchi wrote:In theory I could see something like the Dora Milaje from Marvels Black Panther or an order of sisters armored like samurai work really well aestetically.
Most probably there will be some that disagree or say it hurts their immersion in the game, but "armored female religious zealots" doesn't have to be identical with fleur de lys medieval european armor.
Again, these are great examples, but in what GW offer in their models and their own artwork, Sisters are predominantly presented with European/Catholic trappings. That's not to say that such things *must* be adhered to, and I would encourage people to do whatever they like that looks coolest - but it cannot be understated that you would be taking a large diversion away from the aesthetics offered by GW, and as a result, I cannot say that it is just as open to diversity as Space Marines are, which have historically been (and still remain) open to customisation and different designs, both within and without GW's spheres of influence.

Is it *possible*? Yes! Is it as encouraged as certain other factions? Certainly not - hence my pointing out that Sisters should not be compared to other factions as a beacon of creativity, as it is not encouraged.



I fully agree with what Sgt_Smudge said here and in the quote before. I should have added in my comment that I look at it from a "collectors perspective", thinking that while GW follows a clear design philosophy with SoB (and is very unlikely to divert from it), I think that if one wants to explore the concept of "power armored baseline human female" with a non-western-medieval aestetic there are several cool ways to do so.

Funny enough I have considered adding a squad or two of sisters to my african themed Guard army but refrained because their european design would fit poorly (I only collect and haven't played yet). I never thought about the Dora Milaje, but that might be an idea I pick up for myself, if I find fitting parts. So for that already thank you to the OP.


You are welcome

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 19:27:43


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Vatsetis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


True, but, your asian-inspired sisters of battle DO all have to be covered in fleurs-de-lys and eagles and the various mishmash of random cultures that people vaguely throw together and point at and scream "WEST, THIS IS THE WEST OVER HERE ITS WHAT WESTERN CIVILIZATION LOOKS LIKE"


Do they really have to be that way?? Is there any strong lore reason for it to be done that way??



The Imperial Church of the setting does have standard iconography and asthetics that are well established in the lore and art. However the Imperium is VAST its mindbogglingly fast. It's fully possible for different worlds to have different cultural influences rise up and replace that - say they were far from the central worlds and such or even cut off. It's just not often visually depicted because GW tends ot keep media focused on the model lines.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Vatsetis wrote:
But cant they be diverse (in lore and aesthetics) as the other main IOM factions... Afterall Catholics (main inspiration for SOB) in Africa, America, Ireland, Italy or Poland dont look or behave in similar manner outside some common features?
Your models can.

From a lore perspective though the sisters don't have a homeworld or heritage to call on beyond their order. They are orphans from across the whole galaxy raised by the Ecclesiarchy and inducted into one of six orders or a subset of them. There isn't a 'sisterhood of Polandis Three', there is the sisterhood of the Argent Shroud commandery on Polandis Three.

At the core of the faction is fanatical adherence to the dogma of the Imperial Creed - and divergence from the creed is quite literally heresy.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?

Again the actual church In which the SoB are inspired shows you can have great diversity in appareance under one strict dogma.
   
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Vatsetis wrote:
But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?
Yes, aesthetic is absolutely part of that dogma - uniform, and all that jazz.

And what does a Sister "go native" to? They spend most of their time around other members of their order, and are raised as orphans to the Imperial Creed, often specific to their order. Their whole lives are built on that kind of unwavering subservience to their creed.

Again the actual church In which the SoB are inspired shows you can have great diversity in appareance under one strict dogma.
Except the Sisters aren't inspired by "the church", they're inspired by a very specific subsection and point of aesthetic design of a specific type of church, which has a very well defined aesthetic and appearance. They don't have variety because what inspires most of their design is not a varied theme, but a specific aesthetic.

Egypt has had, and has even now, many cultures and aesthetics represented in their history, but the Necrons do not reflect all of them - they reflect a specific aesthetic design, like the Sisters do.

If you want to forgo that design and aesthetic yourself, you are free to, but the point stands that GW have not facilitated an easy method of eschewing the very specific aesthetic design that the faction currently has. This is in stark contrast to other factions, who are afforded a lot more leniency of design, both in background and in model formats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 20:04:09



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on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, don't underestimate the effect local beliefs can have on a centralized religion.
Hell, some very important Catholic religions are the product of local influences.

Doesn't the Eccleisarchy pretty much do the same thing anyway, where they take a local planet's religion and say its an aspect of the Emperor?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 20:08:26


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UK

Vatsetis wrote:
But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?

Again the actual church In which the SoB are inspired shows you can have great diversity in appareance under one strict dogma.


Sure they've gone native. The Imperium plays out over the whole Galaxy - millions of worlds - trillions upon trillions of people. The scale actually defies our capacity to really fully comprehend easily. It's a vast setting. Within that there is limitless opportunity for individual creativity.

It's just that GW keeps things focused on a core design for each faction because that's practical and possible with their production.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, don't underestimate the effect local beliefs can have on a centralized religion.
Hell, some very important Catholic religions are the product of local influences.

Doesn't the Eccleisarchy pretty much do the same anything, where they take a local planet's religion and say its an aspect of the Emperor?
They absolutely do, but that isn't the same as their commanderies or preceptories - that's more what they do to ensure compliance, and is a tactic most used by their preachers and missionaries. Sisters of Battle, because they are drawn from the Schola, and therefore from a fairly standardised recruitment base, don't need to try and combine that with existing regional beliefs - their recruits only know the core tenets of the Imperial Creed, and nothing else.

Basically, because of how Sisters are recruited, you don't *need* to create these hybrid religious systems, whereas Space Marines, because they recruit from the direct populace, often tie into the cultures and practices of the people they came from.

Again - if *your* Sisters recruit from the local populace, or do something otherwise unseen, you do that! However, because such customisability is not presented by GW, Sisters are not a faction that is so defined by their diversity as other factions are.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 20:10:15



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 Overread wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?

Again the actual church In which the SoB are inspired shows you can have great diversity in appareance under one strict dogma.


Sure they've gone native. The Imperium plays out over the whole Galaxy - millions of worlds - trillions upon trillions of people. The scale actually defies our capacity to really fully comprehend easily. It's a vast setting. Within that there is limitless opportunity for individual creativity.

It's just that GW keeps things focused on a core design for each faction because that's practical and possible with their production.


Thanks, this sounds reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, don't underestimate the effect local beliefs can have on a centralized religion.
Hell, some very important Catholic religions are the product of local influences.

Doesn't the Eccleisarchy pretty much do the same anything, where they take a local planet's religion and say its an aspect of the Emperor?
They absolutely do, but that isn't the same as their commanderies or preceptories - that's more what they do to ensure compliance, and is a tactic most used by their preachers and missionaries. Sisters of Battle, because they are drawn from the Schola, and therefore from a fairly standardised recruitment base, don't need to try and combine that with existing regional beliefs - their recruits only know the core tenets of the Imperial Creed, and nothing else.

Basically, because of how Sisters are recruited, you don't *need* to create these hybrid religious systems, whereas Space Marines, because they recruit from the direct populace, often tie into the cultures and practices of the people they came from.

Again - if *your* Sisters recruit from the local populace, or do something otherwise unseen, you do that! However, because such customisability is not presented by GW, Sisters are not a faction that is so defined by their diversity as other factions are.


For someone so hellbent on introducing FSM you seem very rigid towards how other factions can be depicted.

Anyway this thread is not about comparing SOB to Adeptus Astartes "Kustum boyz"... Its about the Sorotitas and how they could be depicted outside their main aesthetic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 20:43:42


 
   
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I believe that there is at least one minor order where the Sisters seems to have the appearance of people from Central Asia, while at least two lean towards a more African ethnic aesthetic.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






I don't know if it's ever been specifically stated, but I could see Sisters deliberately being stationed on worlds away from their homeworlds - like the Arbites and Commissariat - specifically so that they don't have much of a connection to the local culture(s), so that they're less likely to hesitate if some purging needs doing.
   
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Vatsetis wrote:
But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?
The militant sisters exist to enforce the dogma.

Priests do 'go native' to appeal to the masses and move them towards the imperial creed, the sisters are more about setting the masses on fire if they rise up against it. Their whole lives are spent in strict adherence to their creed and more often than not as a symbolic representation of the Ecclesiarchys power - they aren't about making themselves more relatable or individual.
   
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Vatsetis wrote:
But that dogma implies aesthethic? Have never the SOB gone "native"?

Again the actual church In which the SoB are inspired shows you can have great diversity in appareance under one strict dogma.


Well the point of having SoB being the defender of orthodoxy would prevent them from ''going native''. Their very purpose is to weed out unorthodox and heretical doctrines. Plus, their equipment is centrally produced and distributed which means since its build at the same place they are pretty uniform in terms of design. In the same fashion, all their recruits are centrally trained and indoctrinated. Their non-combat clothing might be more diverse, but we don't see those on the tabletop. Technically, SoB do have some diversity when it comes to aesthetic if only due to their armor colors, battle doctrines, favored patron Saints, etc. You could even attempt an easy conversion for more iconoclast or ''icono-sober'' SoB by stripping most the artwork from their tanks (you can try to find older, far less decorated SoB tanks) and avoiding to add all the seals markers on their units. SoB are a bit odd in the Imperium, with maybe the Mechanicus and its armies, for being very centralized and homogenous unlike Guards which are the pure product of their homeworld or Space Marines who have of course a ridiculous amount of diversity if only due to their abundant support in terms of models that allows to show cultural diversity in greater depth than words in Codex and books and a different color scheme.
   
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Look at the schola progenium, the more direct military aspects of it all have a uniform that is fairly rigidly kept.

Scions, Commisars and Sisters... They all have a specific look that is maintained other than colour and specific livery found on banners.

The only candidates in the solar that don't have a rigid appearance upon leaving are those where their role requires them not to so they can blend in, Inquisitors for example.

Marines have more autonomy and patterns of power armour, they can be a bit more flexible in their appearance, but at the end of the day, they all share a core aspect in terms of uniform... They wear power armour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 21:19:30


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The BL novel Requiem Infernal features a Adepta Soriatas minor order who have gone pretty majority native in following an (approved) local variation of the Imperial creed.

In this particular case, while their beliefs were pretty non-standard, their aesthetics were fairly normal (aside from the colour schemes of some sub-orders) as can be seen by the cover.

It’s just as possible that you could have a minor order with some major aesthetic differences as well. It’d be a pain to convert though given the level of standard iconography on all the models.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 21:23:54


 
   
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EDIT:
Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, don't underestimate the effect local beliefs can have on a centralized religion.
Hell, some very important Catholic religions are the product of local influences.

Doesn't the Eccleisarchy pretty much do the same anything, where they take a local planet's religion and say its an aspect of the Emperor?
They absolutely do, but that isn't the same as their commanderies or preceptories - that's more what they do to ensure compliance, and is a tactic most used by their preachers and missionaries. Sisters of Battle, because they are drawn from the Schola, and therefore from a fairly standardised recruitment base, don't need to try and combine that with existing regional beliefs - their recruits only know the core tenets of the Imperial Creed, and nothing else.

Basically, because of how Sisters are recruited, you don't *need* to create these hybrid religious systems, whereas Space Marines, because they recruit from the direct populace, often tie into the cultures and practices of the people they came from.

Again - if *your* Sisters recruit from the local populace, or do something otherwise unseen, you do that! However, because such customisability is not presented by GW, Sisters are not a faction that is so defined by their diversity as other factions are.


For someone so hellbent on introducing FSM you seem very rigid towards how other factions can be depicted.
I'm sorry? You must have missed where I've repeatedly said that you can and should make your Sisters as varied as you like - I've even bolded it now on the quote above. You asked for what the lore and aesthetic design stated, not for how much value I placed on it.

Other examples of the above are:
"This isn't to say that creativity is impossible..."
"Is it *possible*? Yes!"
"If you want to forgo that design and aesthetic yourself, you are free to..."
That doesn't sound very rigid, does it?

Did you actually want an answer to your question, or are you hinting at something else?
Anyway this thread is not about comparing SOB to Adeptus Astartes "Kustum boyz"...
Sure it's not. It just so happens that this thread popped up when I commented in your previously closed thread about how Sisters shouldn't be compared to Astartes because Sisters (by GW's own design philosophy) aren't as customisable.

Definitely not related though, are they?
Its about the Sorotitas and how they could be depicted outside their main aesthetic.
They can be. But is it encouraged as a hallmark of their factional design? No.

Are you asking if that design aspect should be changed?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 21:51:04



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