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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
would really like to see more tau auxilleries, sadly Tau have been flanderized into "MOAR SUITS!" everytime a new tau model comes out. which is a shame. TBH if I was a mini designer I'd love the subject race aspect of the Tau, a chance to design some wild and batty new aliens in a single "one and done" box? sounds like a paradise for creativity


Yep I feel the same way - sad really that they jst keep making biger and more stupid looking suits - the Stromsurge being the depths - only matched by Grey Knights Baby carriers and Centurions.


I must be strange, but I love the new Tau suits, the Stormsurge being my second favorite (best one being the Ghostkeel) and generally enjoy the Tau aesthetic as being one of the best in 40K. I don't think that treating the Tau as a repository for all the half baked unit concept of xenos a design team could come up with would be any sort of success. Should Kroot be further developed, Probably. Should human auxiliaries be added, probably too. Could Vespid have some unit diversity, that could be good. Should three more "one unit of one race" be added, definitely not.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I think the most deserving of "diversity" is in order:

SoB - no real diversity to speak of, only one type of sister, paint is only difference
Nids - Paint is only difference, but there should be divergent traits just by evolution alone, make Behemoth have an extra arm, or Leviathan somehow bigger?
Tau - Lock away types of suits to specific septs, done. Sort of how Elesian Drop Troops are only allowed to a certain part of the IG.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/16/gen-con-tau-pathfinders-rumble-with-all-new-novitiate-sisters-in-the-first-kill-team-expansion/

   
Made in us
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I am not entirely sure this counts either. It's still obviously the same Fluer De Lis power armor ladies running around with ridiculously over compensating boob plate. Are we seriously supposed to believe that boob plate enhances battle efficiency?
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






It's not about efficiency it's to make it abundantly clear that the Sororitas are women so as to not break the Decree Passive. It's weird and could be construed as sexist but it's not exaggerated to the point of x rated and there are quite a few models in the range that are covered by cloaks, hoods, and shawls so there is no breastplate. Considering some of the model's GW has put out in the past *cough*Dark Eldar Slaves*cough*, SoB are very low on the horny scale.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 21:20:07


 
   
Made in us
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I'm sorry if you don't think their boob armor is exaggerated, I don't know how to prove to you that it is. Maybe ask a woman you trust if she thinks the size of their boobs is realistic?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry if you don't think their boob armor is exaggerated, I don't know how to prove to you that it is. Maybe ask a woman you trust if she thinks the size of their boobs is realistic?


he didn't say it's exaggerated, he said it's "not exaggerated to the point of being x rated"

Maybe try and understand the nuance of whats being said rather then attack strawmen.





Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry if you don't think their boob armor is exaggerated, I don't know how to prove to you that it is. Maybe ask a woman you trust if she thinks the size of their boobs is realistic?

I mean women have breasts, like what do you want me to say here? The models have noticeable breastplate protrusions but they aren't obscene or dominating the design space. But again the point of the styling of the armour is to make it abundantly clear that the Sororitas are women and therefore not "men" under-arms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 21:51:40


 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Armor is not always made for efficiency, sometimes it's designed for style, no matter if it's dumb or not.

Here's some genuine male boobplate from ancient Greece, complete with nipples:
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gert wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry if you don't think their boob armor is exaggerated, I don't know how to prove to you that it is. Maybe ask a woman you trust if she thinks the size of their boobs is realistic?

I mean women have breasts, like what do you want me to say here? The models have noticeable breastplate protrusions but they aren't obscene or dominating the design space. But again the point of the styling of the armour is to make it abundantly clear that the Sororitas are women and therefore not "men" under-arms.


he's shifting the goalposts and trying to argue that the breasts are oversized. He'smissing the fact that 40k isn't perfectly scale. that means extremities such as hands, feet, heads, and yes breasts, are over sized

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/16/gen-con-tau-pathfinders-rumble-with-all-new-novitiate-sisters-in-the-first-kill-team-expansion/

Yes? Visibly the same aesthetic design, leaning *even further* into the "stereotypically Catholic" aesthetic.

Are you trying to prove the point that the Sisters of Battle only seem to have one aesthetic design? Because that's just what you've done.


They/them

 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Is it bad that Sisters have a specific aesthetic to them? I mean, doesn't everything in 40k (other than differing Guard regiments) work that way?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

I think the argument is supposed to be, Sisters of Battle as an all female counterpart to Space Marines as an all male force is not sufficient, because space marines have wolf marines and monk marines and Templar marines and sisters of battle are all Catholics.

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
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When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






That would only be a problem if you insisted on viewing Sisters of Battle as the female equivalent to Space Marines.

They're not just gender swapped Marines; they're their own thing.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 ph34r wrote:
I think the argument is supposed to be, Sisters of Battle as an all female counterpart to Space Marines as an all male force is not sufficient, because space marines have wolf marines and monk marines and Templar marines and sisters of battle are all Catholics.


Which kind of applies to every single model line except Space Marines - who are a total exception even within GW, let alone outside.
They even have an alternate 30K line of models with variety between different chapters too.


It's just abnormal and not something even GW can repeat or copy easily. Plus looking at how they handle AoS now, it doens't look like its something GW want to try again and personally I agree with that stance. I'd rather have 20 totally different armies and asthetics and lores than 15 armies that look mostly the same with minor variations and then 5 separate creative designs. Sure that means armies which "should" have near infinite variety end up just having 1 design aesthetic, but it at least means the firm can make loads of different creative ideas.

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The Shire(s)

 Overread wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
I think the argument is supposed to be, Sisters of Battle as an all female counterpart to Space Marines as an all male force is not sufficient, because space marines have wolf marines and monk marines and Templar marines and sisters of battle are all Catholics.


Which kind of applies to every single model line except Space Marines - who are a total exception even within GW, let alone outside.
They even have an alternate 30K line of models with variety between different chapters too.


It's just abnormal and not something even GW can repeat or copy easily. Plus looking at how they handle AoS now, it doens't look like its something GW want to try again and personally I agree with that stance. I'd rather have 20 totally different armies and asthetics and lores than 15 armies that look mostly the same with minor variations and then 5 separate creative designs. Sure that means armies which "should" have near infinite variety end up just having 1 design aesthetic, but it at least means the firm can make loads of different creative ideas.


The reason it is relevant is not because people reasonably expect SoB to be given as diverse a range of models as Space Marines, it is because Sisters are held up as a sort of shield against female Space Marines, when they are not close in terms of what is portrayed for Sisters vs Astartes.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
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And THERE we have it. We only needed 8 pages to weedle out the truth. SoB is GW's defense against having to create FSM.
   
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Canada

Oh nooooooooooo

Rally the troops!

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A garden grove on Citadel Station

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And THERE we have it. We only needed 8 pages to weedle out the truth. SoB is GW's defense against having to create FSM.
Or, maybe it is ok that not everything is symmetrical across whatever lines of identification you favor?

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 ph34r wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And THERE we have it. We only needed 8 pages to weedle out the truth. SoB is GW's defense against having to create FSM.
Or, maybe it is ok that not everything is symmetrical across whatever lines of identification you favor?


I don't even know what this means. Can you go into more detail about whatever this statement's intended meaning is?
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And THERE we have it. We only needed 8 pages to weedle out the truth. SoB is GW's defense against having to create FSM.


Nope. BUT the existence of SOB make FSM rebundant (lore wise and model wise) unless you really, really want FSM for some exogeneus reason (IE not for the in universe lore and not for the minis... Since apparently the consensus is that FSM should look exactly or almost exactly as the current SM line).
   
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Canada

hey GW where are my white, english speaking Zulu warriors with boobplate? I need my diversity in all forms...wat? they don't have them in official models? I don't want to paint them in different colours, they MUST be official prints in order for them to count. They have to be female as well, even though Zulu warriors where never female, nor white, nor english speaking. No, I don't want to use stand ins, they HAVE to be GW or they don't count.

Sweet lord, this and the FSM arguement is nonsensical. According to lore SM are male, the Sisters are female. What you do is your business with the models you buy. Convert and paint them as you wish and stop trying to change the world to fit YOUR ideal. Change your own stuff to fit your narrative and leave my narrative alone.

Pew, Pew! 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Wanna stop talking about a certain thing before the thread gets locked? Maybe tone down the hostility while we're at it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 21:52:11


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

SoB have one of the best model lines in 40K, it makes me jealous. It seems like they're popular and sell well, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Same goes for Space Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 22:01:01


Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:BUT the existence of SOB make FSM rebundant (lore wise and model wise)
Except evidently not, as you attempted (and failed) to disprove in this thread. Sisters do not have the same range of options, both aesthetically and in flavour, that Astartes are *encouraged* to have. This, as I have asserted many times, is but one of the many reasons that the two factions are not the same, in the same way that Custodes should (by your logic) make mono-gender Astartes redundant. In design and in concept, Sisters are closer to Custodes in terms of their identity - generally centralised, aesthetically solidified, politically influential and well armoured/trained warriors, with a small but well defined aesthetic identity set out by GW.

Do I feel that there should be more encouragement of different aesthetic designs? Yes, I do - in the same way I encourage those same player freedoms to Astartes, in exactly the way you expect.


Besides, I thought you said this had nothing to do with women Astartes, after I suspected such a motivation from you in the creation of this thread. Or was that yet another case of wilful bad faith?
steelhead177th wrote:hey GW where are my white, english speaking Zulu warriors with boobplate? I need my diversity in all forms...wat? they don't have them in official models? I don't want to paint them in different colours, they MUST be official prints in order for them to count. They have to be female as well, even though Zulu warriors where never female, nor white, nor english speaking. No, I don't want to use stand ins, they HAVE to be GW or they don't count.
See, the issue here is that the Zulu are a real tangible thing that existed/exists. Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are neither - their entire existence is a fabrication.

Demanding reality to change/be representative is very different to wanting some different options for your fictional made up toy soldiers. Nice false equivalence though.

What you do is your business with the models you buy. Convert and paint them as you wish and stop trying to change the world to fit YOUR ideal. Change your own stuff to fit your narrative and leave my narrative alone.
That's exactly what I want - me having women Astartes, or more customisable Sisters doesn't affect your narrative at all, so why would adding that option be a problem for you?

In what way does a broader range of options hurt you? There's no quota for you, no requirement for you to repaint or rebuild or redesign your army. The existence of Space Wolves doesn't mean I need to add pelts to my homebrew Chapter. The existence of the Farsight Enclaves doesn't affect my own cadre of Tau. The existence of the Silent King doesn't mean squat for my own Necron dynasty. So why would this be an affront to you?


But, as said, this isn't the topic, is it? Is it, OP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gert wrote:Wanna stop talking about a certain thing before the thread gets locked? Maybe tone down the hostility while we're at it?
Aye - that topic was supposed to be locked down - but, as I fear, I think the OP was trying to circumnavigate that from the start.

Goose LeChance wrote:SoB have one of the best model lines in 40K, it makes me jealous.
Oh, absolutely - their new plastic incarnation is very good, if aesthetically one-note and inflexible to customisation - but very good no less.
It seems like they're popular and sell well, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Same goes for Space Marines.
However, in counterpoint to that sentiment, people said that before Primaris existed, and look how well they've sold. Maybe the market is ready for some slight divergences from the previous designs - after all, if Primaris are anything to go by, it seems like a great success!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 22:07:37



They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

I would bet my life that Primaris sold well because they're properly sized Marines, and upscaling the vanilla Marines would have sold even better. Everything that sucks about Primaris is the new stuff, including the lore.

Ok, not everything, the Outriders are an improvement.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/18 03:35:13


Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:hey GW where are my white, english speaking Zulu warriors with boobplate? I need my diversity in all forms...wat? they don't have them in official models? I don't want to paint them in different colours, they MUST be official prints in order for them to count. They have to be female as well, even though Zulu warriors where never female, nor white, nor english speaking. No, I don't want to use stand ins, they HAVE to be GW or they don't count.
See, the issue here is that the Zulu are a real tangible thing that existed/exists. Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are neither - their entire existence is a fabrication.

Demanding reality to change/be representative is very different to wanting some different options for your fictional made up toy soldiers. Nice false equivalence though.
Nuns are a real thing right? Monks are a real thing right? Are sisters of battle basically warrior nuns? Yes. Are space marines basically warrior monks? Yes. Seems like a pretty fair and not false equivalent to me. Like, there is no army of soccer hooligan elves, just soccer hooligan orcs. There is no army of mechanical locusts from another galaxy, just biological locusts from another galaxy. There is no army of biological ancient humanoids dwelling beneath the surface of tomb worlds, just mechanical ones. There are no boy warrior nuns, just girls. There are no girl warrior monks, just boys.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That's exactly what I want - me having women Astartes, or more customisable Sisters doesn't affect your narrative at all, so why would adding that option be a problem for you?
That would be awesome if Sisters of Battle got more variety, I'm all for it. They have one of the best model lines there is, and it had been a long time coming too.

Can't you just have "Daughters of Erda" if sisters of battle aren't space marine-y enough? Why change something old when you can just add something new with no conflict? Everyone wins right? If someone showed up with an army of space marines with all the bare heads being women, and said "oh yeah they're not adeptus astartes, they're <something else>", that would be totally cool.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/17 23:07:55


ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ph34r wrote:
Nuns are a real thing right? Monks are a real thing right? Are sisters of battle basically warrior nuns? Yes. Are space marines basically warrior monks? Yes. Seems like a pretty fair and not false equivalent to me.


Well, Space Marines aren't warrior monks. They aren't monks at all. They don't live a monastic lifestyle and aren't a branch of the Ecclesiarchy nor subservient to its hierarchy. Sisters of Battle are warrior nuns (to some extend though they don't quite fit the bill either), but Space Marines aren't monks at all. Some of them aren't even religious in the proper sense of the term, holding on to the old "Imperial Truth" ideology (though they do have a cult of personality toward the Emperor and their Primarch). Plus, monastic or religious orders that contains members of both sex do exist. Not only is your comparison not apt, it's not even internally consistent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 00:17:30


 
   
Made in ca
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I think it's obvious that this thread was just a trojan horse for the "female marines" crowd.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





ph34r wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:hey GW where are my white, english speaking Zulu warriors with boobplate? I need my diversity in all forms...wat? they don't have them in official models? I don't want to paint them in different colours, they MUST be official prints in order for them to count. They have to be female as well, even though Zulu warriors where never female, nor white, nor english speaking. No, I don't want to use stand ins, they HAVE to be GW or they don't count.
See, the issue here is that the Zulu are a real tangible thing that existed/exists. Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are neither - their entire existence is a fabrication.

Demanding reality to change/be representative is very different to wanting some different options for your fictional made up toy soldiers. Nice false equivalence though.
Nuns are a real thing right? Monks are a real thing right? Are sisters of battle basically warrior nuns? Yes. Are space marines basically warrior monks? Yes. Seems like a pretty fair and not false equivalent to me.
Tell me when the nuns at your local convent go around wearing power armour, fighting aliens, and carry bolters.

No, this is completely ridiculous. There is a whole *universe* of difference between "I want to change the demographics of an actual real world historical/cultural organisation" and "I want to change the fictional depiction of a fictional organisation inspired by stereotypical and oftentimes inaccurate facsimiles of real cultures", namely in that one of those *does not exist and exists only as a shared figment of our imagination*.

I'm sure you know that, and I needn't dismantle this ridiculous line of logic any further.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That's exactly what I want - me having women Astartes, or more customisable Sisters doesn't affect your narrative at all, so why would adding that option be a problem for you?
That would be awesome if Sisters of Battle got more variety, I'm all for it. They have one of the best model lines there is, and it had been a long time coming too.

Can't you just have "Daughters of Erda" if sisters of battle aren't space marine-y enough?
But why invent something wholly new? What prevents us using existing assets that already fit the bill?
Why change something old when you can just add something new with no conflict?
Why create something new when something old already exists fit for purpose?
Everyone wins right?
Everyone wins anyway - unless people choose to get offended by something that has no need to affect them, that is.

If my local takeout store starts offering a new topping option for their pizzas, I don't have to buy that. No point them inventing a whole new type of flatbread and branding it something unique so that it doesn't infringe on the "pizza" section, when those who don't want that topping on their pizza can just... not have it.
If someone showed up with an army of space marines with all the bare heads being women, and said "oh yeah they're not adeptus astartes, they're <something else>", that would be totally cool.
But as you said - they're Space Marines with the bare heads being women. Why can't they just be... yanno, Space Marines, like you just described them as?

Let's put the same example to these aesthetically different Sisters you said you wanted and were all for - what if we could have these aesthetically diverse Sisters, but they had to be called the "Daughters of Erda". They use all the same resources, units, rules, and suchlike as the Sisters of Battle, but you absolutely definitively cannot call them Sisters of Battle, despite their only difference being an aesthetic one, and they *must* go by a different name, like the "Daughters of Erda". Is it not simpler to call them Sisters of Battle, and those who don't like these aesthetically different Sisters of Battle can just not use them?

You see my point?

epronovost wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
Nuns are a real thing right? Monks are a real thing right? Are sisters of battle basically warrior nuns? Yes. Are space marines basically warrior monks? Yes. Seems like a pretty fair and not false equivalent to me.


Well, Space Marines aren't warrior monks. They aren't monks at all. They don't live a monastic lifestyle and aren't a branch of the Ecclesiarchy nor subservient to its hierarchy. Sisters of Battle are warrior nuns (to some extend though they don't quite fit the bill either), but Space Marines aren't monks at all. Some of them aren't even religious in the proper sense of the term, holding on to the old "Imperial Truth" ideology (though they do have a cult of personality toward the Emperor and their Primarch). Plus, monastic or religious orders that contains members of both sex do exist. Not only is your comparison not apt, it's not even internally consistent.
I'd have said the same, but you managed it before me - but yes, I do take umbrage with "Space Marines are warrior monks", because it really doesn't fit many variants of Astartes, and that not all monastic orders are even mono-gendered. Do Chapters have their own cults and rituals, absolutely - but those could be inspired by *any* cultures, and could have any variety of traditions and expectations. After all, with Astartes, variety seems to be the spice of life - a counterpoint to Sisters, who (despite also having variety in their rituals and ceremonies) are oftentimes depicted and identified as a more homogenous grouping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's obvious that this thread was just a trojan horse for the "female marines" crowd.
But OP insisted that it wasn't! It definitely had nothing to do with the fact that this thread was created immediately after their previous thread on That Topic was locked, after many users mentioned that Sisters and Astartes could not be considered equivalent due to their divergent levels of player freedoms and encouraged creativity...

Definitely not related at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 00:48:25



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