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The trope (The "Mighty Whitey" trope, actually) is named that way because western media, which has been for a long type "white" coded (I'm spanish, btw, so current USAnian biases say I'm "non-white", exactly the same way as Temuera does) made it much more common, but it's nowhere near something exclusive, and the trope acknowledges it:

As the following examples will show, the trope tends to be used pretty liberally, especially because of the historical difficulty of defining the term "white" (i.e., whether it should primarily refer to Europeans, Caucasoids, or simply light-skinned people). It's most convenient to define this trope as a "modern" character achieving mastery over "ancient" or "backward" characters, not necessary with respect to race per se.

So, to answer your question, yes, I at least mean it to be “people who use blasters and space ships”. And it being basically Lawrence of Arabia in spaaace (the train scene is almost lifted directly, FFS), it fits to a tee.

Yeah but as I already noted, that isn’t how the show works nor does that way of looking at whiteness make much sense in the context of white savior criticisms.

It sounds like you don’t care about racial issues, you just think the show is derivative.

You're ignoring that humans have always been at the forefront of Star Wars and also served as canon's primary colonizers and imperealists. They've been consistently depicted as the dominant, or at least preeminent, race in the galaxy. Even media that could easily have non-human leads has humans as primary characters and aliens are secondary. The dominance of humans was actually addressed in the EU at one point: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Diversity_Alliance. For whatever reason, Disney decided with the ST to keep making human-centric stories. Even The Mandalorian is somewhat guilty of this...outside of Grogu I can't easily recall a significant non-human character from that series.

The White Savior trope doesn't apply 1:1 to any of Star Wars. It can't. It's a different universe with different cultures and a different history. If you reduce that trope down to enlightened, privileged outsider educates and aids "primitives" than it is absolutely applicable in the case of Boba Fett. He's a perfect clone of Jango Fett, one of the best bounty hunters of his time. Jango was wealthy, well-armed, and worked directly with Count Dooku. Boba Fett worked directly for Darth Vader at least once, meaning that he, at least, temporarily served a fascist regime that has consistently been shown to be human-centric and oppressive of aliens. The rare exceptions to that are when the Empire made use of alien inquisitors out of necessity and Grand Admiral Thrawn.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah but as I already noted, that isn’t how the show works nor does that way of looking at whiteness make much sense in the context of white savior criticisms.

It sounds like you don’t care about racial issues, you just think the show is derivative.

I don't think it's racist, no, I do very much think it's derivative as hell. And it's using a trope that's not racist, per se, but it's pretty colonialist.

 Manchu wrote:

It sounds like you don’t care about racial issues, you just think the show is derivative.

It's not about real world racial issues or if the show is derivative. Everything is derivative. People have just observed that this trope is loosely applicable. I don't understand what the fuss is about.

If we reduce the trope that far then we’ve lost what is problematic about it, too. Again, unless your argument is that Book of Boba Fett is supposed to make actual white people feel better about/ignore actual racism.

trexmeyer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

It sounds like you don’t care about racial issues, you just think the show is derivative.

It's not about real world racial issues or if the show is derivative. Everything is derivative. People have just observed that this trope is loosely applicable. I don't understand what the fuss is about.

Right now it's more an issue of "I was expecting The Soprano in spaace (or something, you know what I mean ^^) and I got Lawrence of Arabia in spaace" than anything else. And I'm not sure I care for it.

I agree that this show is not really about mafia politics.

 Manchu wrote:
If we reduce the trope that far then we’ve lost what is problematic about it, too. Again, unless your argument is that Book of Boba Fett is supposed to make actual white people feel better about/ignore actual racism.

I don't think that it reduces what's problematic: it's still a mighty, technologically advanced outsider telling the "savages" how it's done. Pretty much how most american media depicts Conquistadores.

But anyways. So far, not enough crimelording, too much sandmucking.

 Manchu wrote:
If we reduce the trope that far the we’ve lost what is problematic about it, too. Again, unless your argument is that Book of Boba Fett is supposed to make actual white people feel better about/ignore actual racism.

1) I don't understand how you can interpret that anyone is making that argument.

2) Are you saying that you are okay with an enlightened outsider "raising" up the primitives so long as they are not white? Why is that specifically okay? Isn't the core issue of that trope the idea of cultural and intellectual superiority being revealed via a lone individual mastering the primitive native's ways in a short amount of time and then suddenly guiding them on a generational leap forward that they could not achieve on their own? It's a very self-congratulatory concept.

(1) I explicitly said I didn’t see anyone making that argument. I think this is why “white savior” criticisms are red herrings.

(2) I have not seen Boba “raising up” the Tuskens. I don’t think what we have seen in the show makes sense as a white savior narrative.

 Manchu wrote:
(1) I explicitly said I didn’t see anyone making that argument. I think this is why “white savior” criticisms are red herrings.

(2) I have seen Boba raising up the Tuskens. I don’t think what we have seen in the show makes sense as a white savior narrative.

But is it because Temuera is not white? Would it be different if he was Pedro Pascal? How about Josh Brolin?

Or is it because you don't think that being a technologically advanced character from a "modern" society teaching "ancient" or "backward" tribal people merits the inclusion into the "Mighty Whitey" trope, with the caveats the trope does about race?

I mean, I don't really feel like just race swapping Lawrence of Arabia (which is the main inspiration for this one), Dancing with Wolves or The Last Samurai for black or hispanic characters (for example) would change the underlying narrative one bit.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If we reduce the trope that far then we’ve lost what is problematic about it, too. Again, unless your argument is that Book of Boba Fett is supposed to make actual white people feel better about/ignore actual racism.

I don't think that it reduces what's problematic: it's still a mighty, technologically advanced outsider telling the "savages" how it's done. Pretty much how most american media depicts Conquistadores.

But anyways. So far, not enough crimelording, too much sandmucking.

Both of these

Its hitting all the stops of 'Civilized man fixes the Savages,' which is something I expect from the 1980s, not 2020s. Its a step back, regardless of the actor's personal heritage. Which doesn't stop the writers and director from being problematic anyway.

And yeah, I signed up for Underworld Booglaoo, not the really problematic bits of Dances with Arabia.

Boba and the Tusken’s.

This is him sort of finding a home and acceptance he’s not had since the first battle of Geonosis. Despite having the Galaxy’s all time record for little brothers, even Clone Wars shows him to have been kind of singular.

Yes Aurra Sing and Co kept him company, but it felt a very much working relationship.

Tattooine? The Tusken’s did save his life, albeit for reasons which are unclear (later sport? Slave labour? Both? Arguments can be made).

He saves the kid seeing a potential opportunity for freedom. Something to trade his life for.

He’s also still recovering from his trip to the Sarlacc. With no other captives to assist him in escape (such as being able to get off world, mentioned in Chapter 1).

I think we’re seeing a kind of mutual respect thing. He owes the Tusken’s his life - but they hadn’t granted him his freedom.

So yes, there are elements of outside bonding with natives. But I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily Mighty Whitey stuff going on. Boba is self interested. That’s what I’m seeing as his current driving force.

ASFAIK, it's the only trope that fits that description despite it being a reoccuring plot point across science fiction and fantasy, to include instances where no "white" people are involved. For some reason The Matrix is accused of being a white savior film even though Keanu Reeves has Chinese and Hawaiian ancestry.

Ok... how would you have equipped and trained a bunch of technologically backward people to be able to conduct a successful raid on a high tech target? At some point they have to get more advanced at fighting to fulfil that particular mission, so what is the way of doing that that doesn't fit that trope?

Anyways...

I have actually thought the tusken stuff was more interesting, overall, or at least the pacing and narration was better. The crimelording stuff so far has been kind of... not very good.

As I'm not really that interested on the tusken stuff, even if it's better, so far the show is failing to grip me.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Ok... how would you have equipped and trained a bunch of technologically backward people to be able to conduct a successful raid on a high tech target? At some point they have to get more advanced at fighting to fulfil that particular mission, so what is the way of doing that that doesn't fit that trope?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyUplift

Might Whitey/White Savior doesn't necessarily involve a technological uplift. In The Last Samurai, Tom Cruises' character conforms to samurai's level of technology, not the other way around. I believe the same is true of Avatar, but I never watched it, I've only read the plot points.

I’m not even really mad or hate that Fett is leaning hard on the tropes, I’m just pointing them out. Mandelorian also was quite trope-y with a whole lot of western cliches, and I still enjoyed that one a good bit. I do hope they resolve the flashbacks soon though because I prefer the current storyline.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Ok... how would you have equipped and trained a bunch of technologically backward people to be able to conduct a successful raid on a high tech target? At some point they have to get more advanced at fighting to fulfil that particular mission, so what is the way of doing that that doesn't fit that trope?

Yeah... that's the trope, when the one that does it is a "modern" outsider, so pretty much you can't. So either you don't use "a bunch of technologically backward people to conduct a successful raid on a high tech target" or the main character is one of the above, and it's the one that devises the way to do it.

Or you do it anyways, fit the trope and hope it doesn't offend anyone.

For the record, I'm not offended, I'm just pointing it out.

For the record, I'm not offended, I'm just pointing it out.

yeah, the bigger problem is the show so far is tropes all the way down, and its spelled out exactly where they're from.

If/when it does go back to doing something substantial with the 'current' plot, I fully expect a severed bantha head to materialize on his bacta tank.

The white savior narrative appears to presume that the non-white people are inferior to their white savior. The technological aspect is just a symbol for deeper moral superiority. To me, Book of Boba Fett does not presume this, which makes sense considering this presumption was already explicitly rejected in The Mandalorian. The show does not presume the moral superiority of the Tusken people, either, as noble savages. Evoking these tropes seems useless and, for lack of a better term, “clickbaity.”

I think the real issue the show is working with is that offworlders trivialize and underestimate the Sand People. This is also how his rivals view Boba Fett: as just a gun for hire, not a real player. Boba is a man who sees possibilities that others overlook. This is what the whole contrast with the Rodian prisoner showed us.

Another thing I have noticed is the way offworlders assume they understand Tatooine but don’t, at all. They have a literally superficial view inasmuch as they only see the surface of the sand. But we are beginning to see that there is a dynamic, vibrant ecosystem beneath the wave-like dunes, just like there is a multitude of flora and fauna within the ocean.

This is really a show about hidden depths.

 Manchu wrote:
The white savior narrative appears to presume that the non-white people are inferior to their white savior. The technological aspect is just a symbol for deeper moral superiority. To me, Book of Boba Fett does not presume this, which makes sense considering this presumption was already explicitly rejected in The Mandalorian. The show does not presume the moral superiority of the Tusken people, either, as noble savages. Evoking these tropes seems useless and, for lack of a better term, “clickbaity.”

I think the real issue the show is working with is that offworlders trivialize and underestimate the Sand People. This is also how his rivals view Boba Fett: as just a gun for hire, not a real player. Boba is a man who sees possibilities that others overlook. This is what the whole contrast with the Rodian prisoner showed us.

Another thing I have noticed is the way offworlders assume they understand Tatooine but don’t, at all. They have a literally superficial view inasmuch as they only see the surface of the sand. But we are beginning to see that there is a dynamic, vibrant ecosystem beneath the wave-like dunes, just like there is a multitude of flora and fauna within the ocean.

This is really a show about hidden depths.

Not really, depends on the exact expression of the trope; for example, The Last Samurai or Avatar tend to go the other way around, depicting them usually as more spiritually enlightened (usually by way of drugs, mescal or whatever) but technologically stuck in the past, or "in tune with nature" or whatever the specifics are, which then the "mighty foreigner" adopts as their own, as only the mighty foreigner can bridge the new and old.

But I believe this is enough from me already, and it doesn't really matter.

I’m not really interested in processing media into neatly sorted wiki categories. The white savior criticism is directed at racism. It’s not just a category of trope for the sake of being cataloged. As I posted earlier:

 Manchu wrote:
For those who say that Boba Fett is a white savior, what exactly are you getting at? When we say Kevin Costner played a white savior in Dances With Wolves, the point is to criticize the film for fictionalizing the historical plight of non-white people for the purpose of emotionally reassuring, in the face of ongoing racism, actual white people in the audience. Are people arguing that the point of Book of Boba Fett is to comfort white people about real racism?

 Manchu wrote:
The white savior narrative appears to presume that the non-white people are inferior to their white savior. The technological aspect is just a symbol for deeper moral superiority. To me, Book of Boba Fett does not presume this, which makes sense considering this presumption was already explicitly rejected in The Mandalorian. The show does not presume the moral superiority of the Tusken people, either, as noble savages. Evoking these tropes seems useless and, for lack of a better term, “clickbaity.”

Nonsense. They're the tropes the show is deliberately trying to evoke, or the writers/director are utterly incompetent and lazy. They may, in the end, try to subvert them, but they're highlighting Civilized Man/Noble Savage dichotomy over and over and over again with familiar scenes from familiar movies.

I think the real issue the show is working with is that offworlders trivialize and underestimate the Sand People. This is also how his rivals view Boba Fett: as just a gun for hire, not a real player. Boba is a man who sees possibilities that others overlook. This is what the whole contrast with the Rodian prisoner showed us.

That's... um. That's a leap. The Rodian had at best, resigned himself to being a slave, because the alternative was death. It was day one from Boba, and he was still trying to fight his way out. Its just not that deep.

Another thing I have noticed is the way offworlders assume they understand Tatooine but don’t, at all. They have a literally superficial view inasmuch as they only see the surface of the sand. But we are beginning to see that there is a dynamic, vibrant ecosystem beneath the wave-like dunes, just like there is a multitude of flora and fauna within the ocean.

I don't really think offworlders give a damp fart about Tatooine. Its a convenient rock outside any government's control, perfect for crime. Its ecosystem never needs to matter to them.
If anything, the only metaphorical crap we have about depths and oceans and underneath the sand is its something to desperately break out of, because subsurface be-tentacled ocean-trees are evil, and will pull you down. (Whether it be your past on an ocean planet or all-devouring tentacle monsters trying to eat you. Break out and use technology to forge the broken remains into something better.

This is really a show about hidden depths.

Eh. The private conversations between the characters suggest otherwise. They're just lost at sea and in over their heads.

LOL Voss, I get it, you are too cool for this show. Opinion noted.

I’ll drill down a bit more on the Rodian contrast for posters who care about the show.

For the Rodian, everything is clear because he thinks he already knows it all. Sand People are brutal savages. If you try to escape, they’ll kill you. If you don’t do what they say, they’ll kill you. They are incomprehensible otherwise.

This is all wrong. They did not kill Boba when he tried to escape. The things they do don’t make sense if they are simply murderous. Why have a child and a dog take them out to dig black melons? Enslaving prisoners to obtain water does not seem to be their culture at all.

Furthermore, why do they want the prisoners to see the swoop gangers brutalizing moisture farmers? They are trying to communicate something. It seems to me that message is, we don’t do that. We can live alongside moisture farmers, in the normal course of things. It’s offworlders like the swoop gangers that are the savages, not us.

I think the child was given the task of teaching the prisoners a survival skill. Again, what’s the message? Tatooine isn’t barren. If you know where to look, you can find everything you need to survive. Again, the message seems to be, we are not ignorant brutes. We are not necessarily even hostile.

The theme here shows us how Boba begins to conceive of the ecosystem of not only the Dune Seas but the whole planet, not excluding the offworlders. There is a lesson here, too, about Mos Espa and its relation to the wider planetary system. This world need not be ruled by violence, mistrust, and selfishness. There is a natural harmony here in which everyone can participate and cooperate. The obstacle is narrow-mindedness.

I don't know why people dislike the Tusken Raiders. They're fascinating. My favorite parts of KotOR and SWTOR were interacting with them. I could watch a whole series about them.

 Manchu wrote:
LOL Voss, I get it, you are too cool for this show. Opinion noted.

Yep, definitely exactly that. I wasn't disagreeing of your assessment, I'm just too cool for the show.

I’ll drill down a bit more on the Rodian contrast for posters who care about the show.
For the Rodian, everything is clear because he thinks he already knows it all. Sand People are brutal savages. If you try to escape, they’ll kill you. If you don’t do what they say, they’ll kill you. They are incomprehensible otherwise.
This is all wrong. They did not kill Boba when he tried to escape. The things they do don’t make sense if they are simply murderous. Why have a child and a dog take them out to dig black melons? Enslaving prisoners to obtain water does not seem to be their culture at all.

Or dead slaves don't do work. Living slaves do go dig magically appearing water gourds. Like I said the first time, you're overcomplicating things. Filling in a LOT for the show, which isn't doing the heavy lifting on the work you're ascribing to it.

Furthermore, why do they want the prisoners to see the swoop gangers brutalizing moisture farmers? They are trying to communicate something. It seems to me that message is, we don’t do that. We can live alongside moisture farmers, in the normal course of things. It’s offworlders like the swoop gangers that are the savages, not us.

It seemed to me that wasn't intended by the Tuskens. Just the writers needed to show it in episode 1 so that in episode 2, he could go beat up the bikers in the 'Memberberries Bar and Grill' so that the train plot could happen.

I think the child was given the task of teaching the prisoners a survival skill. Again, what’s the message? Tatooine isn’t barren. If you know where to look, you can find everything you need to survive. Again, the message seems to be, we are not ignorant brutes. We are not necessarily even hostile.

He taught them how to find the magic water gourds? He just ordered the slaves to dig in the sand. He didn't teach them anything about it, how to spot likely locations, or provide the tools they were using in the next episode, nothing. Just dig or be punished.

The theme here shows us how Boba begins to conceive of the ecosystem of not only the Dune Seas but the whole planet, not excluding the offworlders. There is a lesson here, too, about Mos Espa and its relation to the wider planetary system. This world need not be ruled by violence, mistrust, and selfishness. There is a natural harmony here in which everyone can participate and cooperate. The obstacle is narrow-mindedness.

Yeah... we'll see how the show shakes out. He wants to head a criminal empire. That's his actual goal- not a free a harmonious planet. Doing that without violence or selfishness seems, honestly, ludicrous. And again, not the show they advertised.

The criticsm of white saviour isn't about the uplifting of the white guy. Its the back seat an entire race of "lessers" take to the outsider.

A japanese man who dances with wolves his way through a south american tribe would be just as fethed a piece of narrative. No white people involved. The japanese is still playing the white saviour because the trope namer being white doesn't prevent the application of the trope with a recast.

Likewise a first nation shaman guiding a white guy is still a magical black man. Because he serves the same narrative function. His blackness isn't necessary to fufill the tropes role.


Its really not that complicated.

trexmeyer wrote:
I could watch a whole series about them.

Me too. And it looks like we’re going to have that, to some degree.