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 Inigo Montoya wrote:
Spidey0804 - playing bad players with a bad list doesn't make your list good.

Squads of 20 sisters are indeed just silly to run competitively, and saying " I do it and I beat everyone " doesn't make it a good choice. lollollollollol (in your own words..)

At a competitive level, I see Russ' and griffons everywhere, and I see the griffon/basalisk squadron (which will kill the bulk of one of those 20 sister squads in a single turn) at least once. Grey knights own them - lots of things own them, and putting 20 on the board is a clear sign that your grasp on competitive list building is tenuous at best.

I'm not a big fan of Sister blobs, but to be fair ordinance heavy IG is going to do serious damage to pretty much any pure Sisters build. It's just not a good match up to begin with. Since I usually kill GK with weight of fire, I'm not too certain they'd be happy with 40 bolter shots coming their way, either. I prefer the flexibility of smaller units, but I'm sure a lot of lists are intimidated by 20 strong fearless power armor blobs. Bringing a little variety into the game is never a bad thing.

All I know is that as a foot IG player, having something whose armor save isn't ignored by literally almost every small arm in the game is very appealing. Plus, they'd make a good defensive/ screening unit for me, and if I feel like being aggressive, they can pull that off as well. I can grab one of their priest guys for my blobs if I choose (mainly because our priests are terrible and need to be fixed). And we're battle brothers so things like leadership auras are more helpful.

Plus, they're still a lot cheaper than marines, and since I hate space marines, they're really my only choice. I'd rather have 20 sisters than be yet another IG with SW allies.

Simply put, they can bring more bodies cheaper, which is the whole point of my foot IG list to begin with. Their vehicles can be handy if I want them (immolator especially would be fun to try) and their support units fill gaps in the IG codex that we can't fill well on our own. Plus, I think it'll look awesome on the table, not to mention that it's fluffy.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Am I the only one who dosent play with allies? I think it just takes the fun out of sisters. I mean, if I wanted allies I would just play a 2v2. Thoughts?

I don't run allies with my Sisters. I make do with what we have and go from there. I cannot think of a time where I honestly felt I needed allies to do well. We have our shortcomings, but so do all codexes. There is also a matter of pride with me and fielding Sisters and nothing but. I don't hate on allies, but I don't take them myself either.

I have to agree with Agusto on some points. Point for point Sisters will be putting out more shots then most other armies. I've been playing quite a bit since 6th(and about 6 months before the 5th/6th switch).

I play with the mentality of 2 to 1. I will almost always have twice as many bodies as my opponants (orks excluded). There is almost never a time I haven't faced down better stated armies by pushing more bolters into their face.
Here are a few tips I've found useful:

- Never get out of your rhino. Make them work to get to the soft center. Till they get there just pop out and special weapon the living hell out of them. Which brings me to.
- Melta, melta, melta. We get it on the cheap and have more of it then anybody. Melta puts just about anything in the ground and weaken whatevers left.
- Your heavy slots are very important. You will out range many armies with either your exorcists or rending heavy bolters. This forces most armies to come to you or else they will get cut down before they can get in an optimal range.
- Pick your targets carefully. Sisters are all about priority targeting and picking out the things that can take advantage of the fact that we are a bit squishy. We only have a turn or 2 to soften them up and make them managable for clean up.
- Load up on troops. I know our BSS are pretty bad compared to some of the other troop choices everyone else has. But most games are objective based, so when they are taking 3 troops on average while you are taking 4 or 5. If you kill them 1 for 1, you will sill have troops while they can not score at all. I've won so many games because of this alone.
- Last one. USE YOUR FAITH. I've seen so many game go south when a simple die roll could've changed everything. You get to have rerolls, twinlinking, rending. Use them to your advantage. There is nothing worse then having extra faith points at the end of your turn when they could've affected something important.

These aren't hard and fast rules to playing Sisters, but more what I've found to work best for my playstyle.

I would try nothing but sisters, but there's no way I can afford them, especially as I'm still building up orks and IG.

So until then, they're allies. I'm sure they do great standing on their own, but unless somebody gives me a box full of models, they're backing up my guardsmen indefinitely.

To Inari82. Thanks for agreeing, on some points I had a game this very evening against a young female (yes, they do exist) Dark Eldar player who had a tough time dealing with the sheer amount of units I had. If she stayed in long range, Exorcists and Auto cannons would grind her transports down and if she went closer, well then it was the wall of bolter and flame we are so famous for. We had a long talk after the game about the chess metaphor I mentioned earlier and why it hindered her movement the way it did. I won the game because I could force her to move in a certain way, mostly due to the fact that she is a relative new player. Don't get me wrong, she is a good player and a damn lot better than I was after only a handful of games and as she plays more games she will become more and dangerous! But what sealed her fate in the end was a situation where I moved my Penitent engine to my left flank. Spearheading her army on that flank was a Raider with Lelith and her unit of Wyches. By putting the engine as a cover for my softer targets of Seraphims and allied HQ farther behind I more or less forced her to charge the Penitent because she feared the double heavy flamers would burn her to a crisp is she charged the other units. Of course the engine got Haywired into oblivion but then my retaliation wiped out her close combat squad and secured the flank. I sacrificed a few points and killed much more!

Why I mention this is because I am more and more leaning towards including an element or two of close combat units to act as “pawns” in my own half of the table. Right now my Repentias and my Penitent are excellent in this way. Both units are monsters in CC, they wont run away and best of all are really, really cheep! So now my army is more or less like a world war one trench system with three lines. My first line, simply there to break the enemy up and force him (or her) to spend time and fire power is my Sentinel and my Dominions. Yes, a Sentinel may fall even to small arms fire BUT will you disembark and waste a unit that only MIGHT take it down? Or will you waste a valuable anti-tank shot taking out such a soft target instead of firing at my Exorcists? Either way is a win for me! The second line are my BSS, Seraphims AND my close combat pawns. Now I force my opponent to focus on one or the other. Target my shooters and I will charge you or take out the “pawns” and taste bolter! And this is before they even reach my third line of Exorcists, Auto cannons and Russ. The threat to my opponent of being killed, decimated or simply tied up by a CC unit is invaluable for me as I can more or less create a bubble around my pawns where the opposing army don't dare to tread. And by that we are back to making your opponent move the way YOU want In my case, a rather lucky string of actions from my Repentias has given them a fear factor far greater than their actual worth. They have killed terminator squads, Dreadnoughts and Special Characters and boy do I love pointing out that they don't even cost a hundred points!

I have to say that I don't agree with melta, melta, melta! There are more and more occasions where I realize that I would rather have had more flamers than more meltas. As transports have been nerfed I see fewer and fewer such and as the FAQs have made Shaken and Stunned results worse, there are more foot sloggers or equivalents out there. And with bastions, defence lines and such as well flamers are really useful. Right now I run one BSS with two flamers (possibly combi-flamer as well) and one BSS with two meltas (combi-melta if points allow) and this works for me. Positioning and manoeuvre makes sure that the right girls get to the right place. But I do agree with not getting out of the Rhino until you can be sure to wipe out your target. Target priority and wolf pack tactics! Don't fire one unit and hope to take out a few models. Pour so much fire into the unit that there will be no retaliation of any kind.

Lastly, you mention Faith. This is the one area where our army is unique and yes, the rerolls and the twin linking can be game changers but it is also the one area where the WD-codex is such a disappointment. Because Faith can be so fickle. One turn you roll a “6” and no units to use your faith on and the next you roll a “1” and now you have three or four units who all could benefit from a prayer. I sorely miss the old scaling system (including the item where you could get a one-use automatic successful prayer) that allowed us to make our prayers count and we could tactically plan for them to be as effective as possible. Now it is down to pure luck and the roll of a dice instead of skill! I would even go as far as saying that if they could make a new prayer system with some defensive prayers or at least make prayers last for the ENTIRE TURN (I hate not being able to give my Canoness preferred enemy in the shooting phase or reroll wounds for my Seraphims in close combat) I could actually live comfortably with the WD-codex until our book finally comes out. Prayers and martyrs was what made C:WH what it was, this system is... bland :(

Agusto

pretre wrote:The problem with Eldar is that we get no scoring / denial from the equation. Sisters need something to buff their light scoring otherwise they shouldn't take the ally. That means a minimum of allies of convenience.

I've been cooking up ally combos for a little while. Need a good 1850 list. I may create some horrible fluff abomination for a tournament next month. SW plus Sisters? Muhahaha.

Yeah that is a pain to deal with, im only putting up with it though because i wanna try them as allies in both combinations. I have 3-4 sister squads in my list usually so I'm ok on troops, it's a lot of points bringing a 5man d squad with a ws with a starcannon but I can pick up cheap physic defense, more melta guns and a wraithlord.

It's definitely not a optimal choice but worth exploring to me since it's the only ally I can currently try out.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Eldar actually have one of the nastiest scoring units in rangers with the pathfinder upgrade. that 2+ cover is some rediculousness to work through.

Rangers are horrid in my experience, they roll-over whenever they so much as see a template weapons. Even placing them in great cover they get focused really hard and die incredibly fast, and are very very expensive for a unit that just camps. I wouldn't take them as allies or in a main army :/ but that's just my experience I know other people do amazing things with them.

Yeah, My eldar are based off of them. I love my 2+ cover, not to mention if someone does close the distance with templates, either your vehicle killers havent done their job, or your ranges havent done theirs. With the new sniper rules it should become impossiable to close the distance with foot infantry templates (snipe them out of the unit and all), and if you have good target priority with your tank hunters then they should be reduced to walking to hit the rangers. Its all about how you target.

Does everyone just use Celestine to bolt pistol in the shooting phase or has anyone though about grenading with her?

Celestine has a heavy flamer not a bolt pistol.

 pretre wrote:
Celestine has a heavy flamer not a bolt pistol.

Duh.....
The sword. Wow, sorry guys. Another early morning it seems.

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
Spidey0804 - playing bad players with a bad list doesn't make your list good.

Squads of 20 sisters are indeed just silly to run competitively, and saying " I do it and I beat everyone " doesn't make it a good choice. lollollollollol (in your own words..)

At a competitive level, I see Russ' and griffons everywhere, and I see the griffon/basalisk squadron (which will kill the bulk of one of those 20 sister squads in a single turn) at least once. Grey knights own them - lots of things own them, and putting 20 on the board is a clear sign that your grasp on competitive list building is tenuous at best.

Yeah sorry if I take some offence to this... The guys that play here in the local Meta are GT players and Ardboyz winners. I have played in multiply GTs and know my girls inside and out. Next question do you play them? As for your Squadrons they tend not to last that long against this list. Seeing as Im going to be hitting them with 4 Las Cannons turn 1, that have the ability to re-roll hits and if I'm really lucky they ignore cover also. You think I'm just put 20 girls on the table in a huge clump... Really... Dont get me wrong I have played some bad lists but all and all you bring 2k and I bring 2k and we let the dice do the talking. FYI this type of list too 3rd best general at Nova this year I just modified to make it even more broken...

 Spidey0804 wrote:
FYI this type of list too 3rd best general at Nova this year I just modified to make it even more broken...

Okay, we should probably take the personal potshots and wang waving into another thread. Just wanted to correct something... Your list only vaguely resembles the Nova list at this point since he didn't use foot blobs, penitents or repentia. (Assuming your list is what you commonly talk about.)

Either way, take it to PMs gents.

Sorry I just cant stand someone coming in and saying that I club baby seals for a living... just is completely aggravating to me. Aside from that no I have re done my list at least for the next year. It stands as such...

HQ

Uriah
Kyrnof

Priest detachment(x2)
Eviscerator, Combi-Plasma,Melta bombs


Troops
BBS (20) Melta, Multi-Melta
VBS Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Melta bombs

BBS (20) Melta, Multi Melta
VBS Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Melta bombs

Fast
Domnion(10) Flamer x4, Simulacrum
VDS Combi Melta
Rhino (SL, DB, SBx2,HK)

Heavy
Excorsist (SL)

Retibutors(6) Heavy Bolter (x4) Simulacrum
VRS plain.

Fortification
Bastion w Las Cannon

Allies
HQ Coteaz

Troop
Henchman Squad Jokeros(3) Crusaders(3) Servitor w Plasma Cannon(1)

Heavy
Dread Knight w Sword and Heavy Incinerator

How it Plays-----

Bastion is set on the edge of your deployment zone with Coteaz and HS manning the gun. Rets inside. 1 BSS will always be on the field for screen the Bastion, Also if playing against guard I find a nice big plot of area terrain to disperse into so I can Go to Ground if I have to. 1 BSS may or may not be in reserves. Exorcist is placed on the fringe of deployment behind ruins or hills FA 13 4+ cover save is what I'm looking for most games. Dominions go in outflanking mode for Line breaker and rooting stuff off of back field objective. DK is placed in deep strike to drop into back fields and harass what ever it can get its hands onto. So this is very similar to Jeremy's list but at the same time very different. I'm still putting 68 models on the table 50 of which are scoring depending on the mission it could be 60. A reduced amount of over all kill points compared to normal sisters lists and 2 very resilient BSS squads, A Retributor squad that cant even be targeted. The Henchman squad with its variable armor and 3+ invul saves in it and a AV 13 vehicle with a 4+ cover save.... 4 of my KPs get placed inside the BSS so you will have to chew threw that to even start touching the other KPs in it. in essence I have a 7 KP list for most of the game. Putting the Doms in Outflank and the DK in deepstrike makes that a 5 KP list, Rets inside the bastion make it a 4 KP list.... Coteaz in the HS makes it a 3 KP list.... on turn 1 the total list has 13 and that's if you table me. I can make 10 of those KPs very hard to get.

Yikes. Those Sisters squads are huge.
Why no teleporter on the DK? Shunting is a bit better than deep strike.

Yeah i though about it, the DK is used more for harassment and so the DS allows me to get him in the back field and I'm just cool with that . I can fail 2+ saves( I do it all the time with Celestine) LOL only have to fail 4 to makes it a huge Pnts sink that could disappear as soon as it hits.

With the shunt, you can get him there Turn 1 for instant pressure.

Either way, no biggie.

As always, you could fit in another squad just off of vehicle upgrades.

LOL of what? I only have 27 points in vehicle up grades...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Runtz.....

I was mostly kidding since you only have a couple vehicles this time.

I posted this question in the Army list forum, but didn't have any takers. So I figured I would take it straight to the experts.

I'm building a 1750 list.

I am building up a Sister's force and for the time being I wanted to add them to my existing guard. So I made up a list with two Sister options. Both include two squads of Sisters with meltas in rhinos. The two toss ups are to take Uriah and plop him into a 30 man blob for stubborn, righteous rage, FNP. Or bring Celestine with a 10 woman strong seraphim squad.

Let me know what you guys think:

HQ

ccs
4x plasma
chimera

FAST ATTACK

vulture
lascannon

vulture
punisher cannon

HEAVY SUPPORT

medusa

manticore

TROOPS

2x BSS
MM, melta
rhino

2x veteran squad
3 plasma
chimera

ALLIES
Celestine

seraphim
hand flamers
eviscerator


OR
Uriah

PCS

3x infantry squad
autocannon
flamer

Not so sure on the Vultures, since I haven't seen the rules for them, but...

That list seems really light. How many points?

I think you'll need the scoring and Uriah is probably a good choice in that regard, although Celestine is more of a heavy hitter and will get you linebreaker more often.

Also, I wouldn't take the second BSS, just take more guard.

 pretre wrote:
Not so sure on the Vultures, since I haven't seen the rules for them, but...

That list seems really light. How many points?

I think you'll need the scoring and Uriah is probably a good choice in that regard, although Celestine is more of a heavy hitter and will get you linebreaker more often.

Also, I wouldn't take the second BSS, just take more guard.

Hmm, I was taking the the second Sister's Squad in place of a Veteran squad with melta guns. The price ends up being about the same when both units take their respective transports. I guess a chimera is better than a rhino, but I figured that would be offset by the sisters being able to survive longer while claiming objectives with their power armor. The loss of an extra melta gun would be mediated by addition of multi melta with more range.

Certainly not a bad point. I was talking cheap platoon guard, but Sisters probably edge out the Vets for a melta delivery vehicle.

It depends on your play style if anything what you see them doing... If your a camper then go with Uriah if your a striker then go with Celestine and the Searies...

Anyone disagree with that?

Very true. Although I think even people who go with a certain playstyle need elements to do a bit of both.

The only thing I would advist is picking out some unit to run interference. Your very infantry light so you might come into some isses with the new flyers zooming aorund everywhere and blowing all of your armor up. With this kind of list you win or lose at deployment more than anything else. You have to deploy safe while maintaing good range and LOS. The biggest issue I would have running this list is most of your armor is very low, you must be careful of enemy infiltrators, outflankers, and fast movers. DE is going to be the bane of this list.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The only thing I would advist is picking out some unit to run interference. Your very infantry light so you might come into some isses with the new flyers zooming aorund everywhere and blowing all of your armor up. With this kind of list you win or lose at deployment more than anything else. You have to deploy safe while maintaing good range and LOS. The biggest issue I would have running this list is most of your armor is very low, you must be careful of enemy infiltrators, outflankers, and fast movers. DE is going to be the bane of this list.

Do you mean that the armor value is low? That doesn't seem to be too much of a problem since DE weapons go through AV 14 just as easily as 12. The infiltrators and outflankers probably bring melta and AV 14 won't help there either.

One possibility was to take Russes in the place of the Medusa and Manticore.

Should I go foot and bring a defense line?

I believe he means number of armored vehicles is low. Although in 6th, 7 vehicles is quite a few.

Im more referring to the world famous "Reaver Missile" where you get rammed at S-10 form 36 inches away. On top of that their 5++ could make it so you take the pen and they walk away. I know the tactic well, Ive used it too many times to count. From there the newly disembarked unit pot-shots your other low AV models until they die too. DE are the bane of Battery guard because they always build like that (From what I've seen anyway)

I would say you should include some russes. They are good firepower while still being a beast in front armor. More infantry couldnt hurt either b/c it means people have more targets to chew through than just 10 ordnance pieces

Umm. That doesn't quite work like that anymore since flat out is a different phase and you tank shock / ram in the movement phase.

As well, you can't disembark from a ramming vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way, this is a bit beyond the sisters thread as it is now a discussion of guard theory.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Im more referring to the world famous "Reaver Missile" where you get rammed at S-10 form 36 inches away. On top of that their 5++ could make it so you take the pen and they walk away. I know the tactic well, Ive used it too many times to count. From there the newly disembarked unit pot-shots your other low AV models until they die too. DE are the bane of Battery guard because they always build like that (From what I've seen anyway)

I would say you should include some russes. They are good firepower while still being a beast in front armor. More infantry couldnt hurt either b/c it means people have more targets to chew through than just 10 ordnance pieces

I will try the russes. That makes it easier actually as those are built and painted already.

I'm also thinking of just taking vendettas instead of vultures. I want to get some more unique models for the army, but the nearly 100 dollar price tag is making it hard to justify. For the price of one vulture I can get two vendettas on the internets. And it's better anti-air. The BS 4 punisher cannon seemed nice against ground targets though.

I will try the Jacobus blob as well.