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So who's gonna be the first to take Uriah, max priests and max battle conclaves?

I find it amusing for a army to be without "men at arms" can be completely built against the grain like this.

Although that clocks at 1420 bare bones models only that still leaves a lot of room for other toys and fleshing out more troop choices.

6 Battle Conclaves......6 of them....

Leaving the conclave unlocking aside I'm astounded that priests are useful.

 Ovion wrote:
Question - how badly have Retributors really been nerfed?

They still have rending, and they can use it 1-2 times.

But how often did they actually get their Act of Faith anyway?
With the random 1-6pts, and the often 50/50 odds of it working - how many times a game did it actually work?

The answer is a bit complex actually, once you remember that there are actually non-HB options for rets.

The HB rets squad-nerfed. but they should have been as they were the single best HB platform in the game even before taking the AoF into account. and they are probably still the best platform overall, just no longer annoyingly undercosted. and honestly-using the act that one time it count with relative reliability strikes me as better then getting it more often, but randomly. I'd say its an overall loss, but they are still handy.

MM rets never needed the act, so they got a tiny bit cheaper as you don't have to take more then minimum squad with no other upgrades for them to do their thing.

HF rets got ALOT cheaper-and the ability to make the rending happen right on time is great with their point-blank shooting. I'd say they became a great addition to "template spam" AS army. (who is, along a few melta dominos, totally viable on paper.)


Their main problem, is that the pretty good piano got even cheaper. so competition is though.


SisterSydney-Imagifer? what's that?


GW-why did AS not get any skyfire you fool?!

My current 1500 list is as follows (trying to include the Cannoness)

HQ
St Celestine......................... 135
Cannoness , Roasrius, Mantle, Melta Gun ...115
Command Squad, Hospitilar, 2 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers, Rhino,....155
Priest, Combi-Flamer, Book of St L .......40

Troops
5 BattleSisters, Meltagun, Flamer, Immolator with MM...140
5 BattleSisters, Meltagun, Flamer, Immolator with MM...140
5 BattleSisters, Meltagun, Flamer, Immolatorwith MM...140

Fast Attack
5 Serpahim, 1 Sister Superior, Power sword, Hand Flamers ...........115
5 Dominons, 2 Meltas, 2 Flamers, Immolator with MM ............155
5 Dominions, 3 Meltas, Flamer, Immolator with Laud Hailer, MM.........180

Heavy Support
Exorcist with Laud Hailer..........135
Exorcist...........125

quiestdeus wrote:

tiber55 wrote:
can anyone please explain exactly what the wording is on the new anti psyker gun.

How does it allocate the perils if it hits.

Units with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Psychic Pilot special rules hit by [the Condemnor] suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

So, at least for now, the entire unit suffers Perils.

Shandara wrote:Units aren't affected by it though, individual models are. Well that's more for YMDC I guess.

I have absolutely no desire to split hairs over GW's precisely imprecise language, so by all means rile some people up in YMDC. People who run psykers, especially units of them, will want it to affect one model. People who play against said units will want it to affect the entire unit. I think that will sum up the future thread nicely

If it is errata'd back to say "models" hit then Condemnors will go back to being almost useless. For now I am more than happy to play it as "the entire unit" means "each model in the unit" and gently guide people at my FLGS away from the deathstar lists that are both rampant and absolutely boring to play against at this point.

Regarding the Canoness usefulness... Under Ecclesiarchy Relics its written: "Amodel can take one of the following." - does this mean that she can have multiple relics? If so, I think then Canoness tooled up with Cloak of St. Aspia, Mantle of Ophelia and Book of St. Lucius is pretty good (with SCS).

ECCLESIARCHY RELICS
A model can take one of the following. Only one of each Ecclesiarchy Relic can be taken per army.

Just switched my book to the Priest as I think it means they can only have one each?

So I'm looking at Privateer Press stuff for a lot of this... the Daughters of the Flame will make excellent DCA, and the Thyra, Nica and Feora special characters all strike me as excellent counts as priests.

Just played my first game with the new Sisters. I didn't have my old Codex Witch Hunters models with me, so ran a pure Sisters list, which I think will end up being less viable than a mixed Sisters / Priest / Conclave list. I played against Marines and ran a list like this...

Saint Celestine
3x6 Battle Sisters w/ 2 Melta Guns, Vet, in Rhino
2x5 Dominions w/ 4 Melta Guns, Vet, in Multi-Melta Immolators
10 Seraphim w/ 2x Dual Hand Flamers, Vet w/ Power Sword (my Evisorator... What should I count it as now?)
3 Exorcists.

I played against a (blue) Imperial Fist list which, from memory, is something like this.

Master of Forge w/ Thunderfire Cannon
2x Tactical Squads (1 in Rhino)
5 Sternguard w/ Combi-Meltas in Drop Pod
Devastator Squad w/ 4 Missile Launchers
Vindicator

Allied White Scar Bike combat character (with the fancy shield, sword, combi-grav) with a squad of blikes with all the Grav Guns & Multi-Melta attack bike.

I got utterly steam rolled. I am not sure if it's because this book is weaker than my old list, or because the new Marine book is so much stronger than the old one (my first game against new Marines, believe it or not). It just seemed like there was nothing I could do to bring the game in my favour, or even kill much of anything. Nothing much learned from this game, more games required. However I am interested in trying cheap as chips Conclaves with all the Arcos.

I am thinking something like this, as soon as I can get the models.

Uriah Jacobus + naked Priest in a 20 strong Sisters squad
2 10 Strong Sisters squads in Rhinos
2 6 strong Dominion squads with 4 Meltas in Immolators
2 Priests with a 10 strong Conclave (not sure of exact setup)
3 Exorcists

Not sure how many points that is, but it's probably around about 1500-1600 points.

Bought the dex on my iPad. Might give it a spin.

I will be ordering 3 more immolators today...

I'm disappointed with the new codex. It's not that it's bad, people will do well with it. It just seems to have further narrowed an already narrow selection of units.

I really don't see Rets competing with Exorcists at this point. PE are mostly a wash, but they lost a fun rule and gained nothing - and they needed a little something. Repentia got a really nasty nerf.

It doesn't really help that those are all units my current list depends on, but even beyond that, one of the things I feel we needed is a way to broaden the number of viable units. On the plus side, Celestians and Priests got a little love.

The new codex is amazing. So much stuff that's going to shake up the meta, especially the perils guns. It might not be the best pure list codex, but in combination with other dexes, this new update is incredible.

The Perils gun was always there, so how can it shake up the meta?

 Still Standing wrote:
The Perils gun was always there, so how can it shake up the meta?

Before, it needed to specifically cause a wound to the Psyker to cause Perils.
Now it just needs to HIT the squad.

 BoomWolf wrote:
SisterSydney-Imagifer? what's that?

A Sister carrying a Simulacrum Imperialis -- it's in the books here and there.

Derived from the Roman Imperial rank of imaginifer -- note the extra "in" in the middle of the Latin word -- which was a standard-bearer (signifer) specifically assigned to carry the image of the semi-divine Emperor. Very appropriate.

 Dervos wrote:
To be quite honest I never used AoF myself, I follow the nicety of rolling for faith points but never really used them.

If they worked they worked, but usually they didn't. I didn't bother with it, which seems like a waste of a potential benefit but it was so unreliable I personally felt like it wasn't worth my time, but I know it probably would have been better to have at least tried sometimes.(at least on the dom's anyway)

What game were you playing? Faith tests were never worse than 4+, and often 3+. How is that unreliable?

Most of the time Seraphim would have a rerollable 3+ or 2+ for their Act of Faith. Sounds really unreliable.

 Hollowman wrote:
I really don't see Rets competing with Exorcists at this point. PE are mostly a wash, but they lost a fun rule and gained nothing - and they needed a little something. Repentia got a really nasty nerf.

It doesn't really help that those are all units my current list depends on, but even beyond that, one of the things I feel we needed is a way to broaden the number of viable units. On the plus side, Celestians and Priests got a little love.

Rets actually are about even, if you think about it but cost more. 2 almost guaranteed acts (Ld9 test vs 5+ or 4+, that's better than 50% for 2 times per game). Also, Rets can do easy bake oven again, which is awesome.

PE are a wash they've pretty much always sucked, so that's still true.

Repentia got a nerf to FNP (lost 5+ out of assault) but gained a dedicated transport and priests so that they can get a 3+ FNP, reroll 6+ save, reroll wounds, etc in hand to hand (where they belong). They still lack an assault vehicle which they did before, which is why no one takes them.

There are way more viable units now. Celestians? Viable. Command Squad and Canoness? Viable. Priests? Viable. Doms and Seraphim? Viable. The only non-viable units in the book now is Penitent Engines and, arguably, Repentia. And they've always been like that since 6th dropped.

 pretre wrote:

 Hollowman wrote:
I really don't see Rets competing with Exorcists at this point. PE are mostly a wash, but they lost a fun rule and gained nothing - and they needed a little something. Repentia got a really nasty nerf.

It doesn't really help that those are all units my current list depends on, but even beyond that, one of the things I feel we needed is a way to broaden the number of viable units. On the plus side, Celestians and Priests got a little love.

Rets actually are about even, if you think about it but cost more. 2 almost guaranteed acts (Ld9 test vs 5+ or 4+, that's better than 50% for 2 times per game). Also, Rets can do easy bake oven again, which is awesome.

PE are a wash they've pretty much always sucked, so that's still true.

Repentia got a nerf to FNP (lost 5+ out of assault) but gained a dedicated transport and priests so that they can get a 3+ FNP, reroll 6+ save, reroll wounds, etc in hand to hand (where they belong). They still lack an assault vehicle which they did before, which is why no one takes them.

There are way more viable units now. Celestians? Viable. Command Squad and Canoness? Viable. Priests? Viable. Doms and Seraphim? Viable. The only non-viable units in the book now is Penitent Engines and, arguably, Repentia. And they've always been like that since 6th dropped.

Penitent Engines did, and should do, alright, so long as you take 9+ of them....

I've come to the conclusion that Priests are not a great idea for Repentia, and putting them in a not-assault-vehicle transport is also a bad plan.

Priests will lose them fleet, and only bring a benefit in CC, where they don't need a huge amount of help anyway, unless taking a Canoness to tank hits for them, which is pricey.

Taking a Transport to go with them, or in front of them to walk up behind is fine, but otherwise they'd be getting out of their Rhino/Immolator and have to stand there in murder-range for a turn with their grand total of 0 weapons, likely getting wiped out).

Debating a 2k list at this point along the lines of:
HQ: Celestine?
Elites: 3+ x10 Repentia
Troops: 4+ x5 BSS
Fast Attack: Seraphim?
Heavy Support: 6x3 Penitent Engines
Pos. Immolators / Repressors to provide moving cover for the stabby units.

Feh, lost all I wrote. Awesome. First it was a double post, then I cleaned up my double post and it was reduced to a single post.

Anyway, I'm a little disappointed at the Canoness' Act of Faith. Priests get what she can do active all the time. (I read it from the change list as Hatred). Seems like Celestian's act should've been on the Canoness, so she could join up with a Priest and a Command Squad, pass out power weapons, and then get stuck in with Furious Charge and rerollable To Hit/To Wound. Canoness tanking anyone she pleases while the unit cuts into the enemy.

 pretre wrote:
Rets actually are about even, if you think about it but cost more. 2 almost guaranteed acts (Ld9 test vs 5+ or 4+, that's better than 50% for 2 times per game). Also, Rets can do easy bake oven again, which is awesome.

Just to set the record straight, the Command Squad was the only unit in the army that would ever test for faith on a 5+. Rets got their act on a 4+ or 3+. Ld 9 check is equivalent to a 2+.

I'll probably try to run a HB squad, but I'll be running only 7 women instead of the full 10 for the same price. E-Z Bake will happen at least once or twice, just because we can.

 pretre wrote:
There are way more viable units now. Celestians? Viable. Command Squad and Canoness? Viable. Priests? Viable. Doms and Seraphim? Viable. The only non-viable units in the book now is Penitent Engines and, arguably, Repentia. And they've always been like that since 6th dropped.

Are Celestians really viable? I think they got worse. Now that you can get a 5 woman BSS, the only role that Celestians had (small special weapons squad) is gone because the Battle Sisters do it better.

Celestians' AoF is much worse too. They lost Fearless and got Furious Charge instead of the blanket +1 S. Celestians went from bad to worse. If they could score of had 2+ armor or something to differentiate them they might be worth a look.

Amerikon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
There are way more viable units now. Celestians? Viable. Command Squad and Canoness? Viable. Priests? Viable. Doms and Seraphim? Viable. The only non-viable units in the book now is Penitent Engines and, arguably, Repentia. And they've always been like that since 6th dropped.

Are Celestians really viable? I think they got worse. Now that you can get a 5 woman BSS, the only role that Celestians had (small special weapons squad) is gone because the Battle Sisters do it better.

Celestians' AoF is much worse too. They lost Fearless and got Furious Charge instead of the blanket +1 S. Celestians went from bad to worse. If they could score of had 2+ armor or something to differentiate them they might be worth a look.

I agree with this... Celestians are still far from worth it. If they could each take a special weapon they would be super interesting, but as-is they are outclassed.

meh_ wrote:
Regarding the Canoness usefulness... Under Ecclesiarchy Relics its written: "Amodel can take one of the following." - does this mean that she can have multiple relics? If so, I think then Canoness tooled up with Cloak of St. Aspia, Mantle of Ophelia and Book of St. Lucius is pretty good (with SCS).

How can you interpret 'one' as 'multiple'? She can have one, that's it.

Furious charge with a priest on Celestians will be interesting. Hymns of war for rerolls. Actually might be okay at charging.

 pretre wrote:
PE are a wash they've pretty much always sucked, so that's still true.

Repentia got a nerf to FNP (lost 5+ out of assault) but gained a dedicated transport and priests so that they can get a 3+ FNP, reroll 6+ save, reroll wounds, etc in hand to hand (where they belong). They still lack an assault vehicle which they did before, which is why no one takes them.

There are way more viable units now. Celestians? Viable. Command Squad and Canoness? Viable. Priests? Viable. Doms and Seraphim? Viable. The only non-viable units in the book now is Penitent Engines and, arguably, Repentia. And they've always been like that since 6th dropped.

Penitent Engines are a lot more viable than Repentia currently. Repentia will do what they have always done - die to shooting and vehicle explosions, and rip it up in cc. They are just going to die to shooting a lot faster, and make it to cc a lot less often and rip it up slightly less without their free dead-or-alive hit. +2 FnP one turn in exchange for losing it every other turn is a trade no one would make, given the choice. As to priests, they are much worse for Repentia now - they used to give re-rolls to hit. The last thing Repentia have any use for is re-rolls to wound, and if re-rolling hits wasn't worth losing fleet over I can't imagine re-rolling a 6++ will be.

It wasn't actually that uncommon to see Repentia around, and I've made good use of them myself for a long time. They are a clear loser here though - their weaknesses were magnified and their strengths slightly nerfed. I'm going to play around with them, but they look even more dicey and they were already closer to the ropes with the changes 6th made.

My old Arco-Flagellant models are a bit more handy, though. 5 points cheaper and better at bashing hordes, TEQ's and light vehicles than the competition.

Amerikon wrote:

 Dervos wrote:
To be quite honest I never used AoF myself, I follow the nicety of rolling for faith points but never really used them.

If they worked they worked, but usually they didn't. I didn't bother with it, which seems like a waste of a potential benefit but it was so unreliable I personally felt like it wasn't worth my time, but I know it probably would have been better to have at least tried sometimes.(at least on the dom's anyway)

What game were you playing? Faith tests were never worse than 4+, and often 3+. How is that unreliable?

I think because I didn't use it I misunderstood how the AoF actually worked so I saw it as unreliable.

That's too bad on my part even if the WD codex is invalidated now so I guess it doesn't matter anymore but wow did I mess that up.

 Still Standing wrote:
Most of the time Seraphim would have a rerollable 3+ or 2+ for their Act of Faith. Sounds really unreliable.

I misunderstood AoF badly apparently, though I never used Seraphim it wouldn't have be an issue either way but still I'm appalled at what I did

 NydusTemplar wrote:

Anyway, I'm a little disappointed at the Canoness' Act of Faith. Priests get what she can do active all the time. (I read it from the change list as Hatred).

Yeah... Canoness is stubborn and can get hatred for one turn. Priests are fearless and have hatred all the time...

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are the Celestians worth taking?

I treat them like a non scoring BSS unit that is slightly more expensive. The have more attacks and fluff wise they are supposed to be in the "thick" of the battle but really don't reflect that game wise.

To me they are worth it because I don't want allies, don't want repentia and still have points to spend in my army because I've already maxed/ gotten what I wanted out of the other force slots in the particular list I am making.

Are they worth taking for you? For that list you are making?

I feel like most players could get by fine with the elite slot not** existing in this army but that just my opinion since I don't like repentia and I feel like celestian are basically a carbon copy of BSS

Canoness w/ boltgun

x3 x10 dominions w/ 4 melta guns and 1 melta bomb

x6 x10 BSS w/2 melta guns and 1 melta bomb

x3 Exorcists

x1 x10 Celestians w/ 2 melta guns and 1 melta bomb

2000 points on the dot

Using my old list I translated it into the new costs dropped saint celestine and added a canoness with left just enough room to add another unit of sisters

It seems as though 2-3 Condemnor Bolters are an auto-take. If they do force each psyker to perils (save brotherhood of psykers), then it is a hard counter to Seer Council and Screamer stars.

 JGrand wrote:
It seems as though 2-3 Condemnor Bolters are an auto-take. If they do force each psyker to perils (save brotherhood of psykers), then it is a hard counter to Seer Council and Screamer stars.

I can't imagine this being anything more than a typo, they could have easily meant to have put "model" instead of unit since it's just one shot, no complaints if they don't change it but I don't think this was intended.


(Well hey there, they just changed the ebook license, they used to let you have 1 hard copy of your ebook but it's not expressely given permission anymore, better buy a kindle or something now if I want to keep playing warhammer 40k)

Personally I would only take Celestians if I maxed out troop and FA slots.

If they could take from melee and ranged like the command squad, I'd take 3 units.