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I don't get it. You're saying that a girl you knew complained about a girl she knew at work who ussually got her way at work. And you told her that she was getting what she wanted? Are you talking to the rommie or the girl at work here?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't get it. You're saying that a girl you knew complained about a girl she knew at work who ussually got her way at work. And you told her that she was getting what she wanted? Are you talking to the rommie or the girl at work here?

No the girl (1) was moaning that another girl (2) was getting whatever she wanted so cannerus told girl 1 that if she actually did something about it instead of moaning she could probably get what girl 2 got.

So he's advocating being a whiny bitch? S'all good then.

Emperors Faithful wrote:So he's advocating being a whiny bitch? S'all good then.

Advocating action of some kind, whether it comes in the form of whiny bitchery or working harder to earn days off.

What he said. The one girl sold off people liking her but got what she wanted. The other girl didn't and complained.

But you said that they both complained.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you said that they both complained.

Girl 2 complained to the manager and got what she wanted, whereas girl 1 just complained to everyone else and refused to do anything about getting what she wanted.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you said that they both complained.

Girl 2 complained to the manager and got what she wanted, whereas girl 1 just complained to everyone else and refused to do anything about getting what she wanted.

Ah.

Melissia wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not really. Currently (that is, as of one and a half years ago, in a late 2009 study), women are earning on average eighty cents for every dollar men are earning.

If you correct for age and occupation, they're the same.

I assume you have a source for that? (for my own, there's half a dozen sites in easy google search I could link to if you wanted).

I would like links that state men make more than women do providing the links are by a researcher of some type (as good of a secondary source as possible, primary would be preferred though likely impossible), show time the individual has at the company, performance reviews, prior experience outside the company, and education of the individuals. There are possibly other factors factoring in for pay as well. Leadership experience depending on the type of job, etc. Also, if its total pay in a year then any overtime or hazard pay needs to be taken into consideration.

My sociology professor regarded saying something along the lines of how much money women make, but she's an absolute moron, so I wouldn't go by that.

In most cultured countries, it is illegal for a woman to make less money than a man for the same job. It's grounds to sue. And if women aren't going to raise the issue in court, then they deserve to earn less. You don't get social change by complaining, you get it by actually moving to get something done. In a perfect world, people wouldn't discriminate between employees, but that's not always the case. If I were unjustly getting compensated less for my work then another individual for whatever reason, it should raise a serious red flag. Workplace inequality is a very serious issue, and you can't solve it by just parading a random statistic around.

It could be a reference to how men tend to take higher paying jobs. But that's a matter of the male gender being more inclined towards competition (the entire job of the male sex is to compete in order to carry on its genes, in other words, it's in our blood).

JohnHwangDD wrote:[long post that did not cite a source]

Sourrrrrrrce.

Grabbing information from the cargo holds of the USS Make gak Up does not make a convicning argument.

What quote does this remind me of?

Fafnir wrote:In most cultured countries, it is illegal for a woman to make less money than a man for the same job. It's grounds to sue. And if women aren't going to raise the issue in court, then they deserve to earn less. You don't get social change by complaining, you get it by actually moving to get something done. In a perfect world, people wouldn't discriminate between employees, but that's not always the case. If I were unjustly getting compensated less for my work then another individual for whatever reason, it should raise a serious red flag. Workplace inequality is a very serious issue, and you can't solve it by just parading a random statistic around.

What are you, 19? Probably not been in employment long if at all. Whatever the injustice a lot of people are rightly cautious about rocking the boat in their workplace. Suing employers and taking them to tribunals can damage your career in a very permanent way. It can be costly or result in you being ostracised by colleagues or make it incredibly difficult to get work again. Action against your employer is not to be taken lightly, it's no wonder a lot keep their heads down.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Fafnir wrote:In most cultured countries, it is illegal for a woman to make less money than a man for the same job. It's grounds to sue. And if women aren't going to raise the issue in court, then they deserve to earn less. You don't get social change by complaining, you get it by actually moving to get something done. In a perfect world, people wouldn't discriminate between employees, but that's not always the case. If I were unjustly getting compensated less for my work then another individual for whatever reason, it should raise a serious red flag. Workplace inequality is a very serious issue, and you can't solve it by just parading a random statistic around.

What are you, 19? Probably not been in employment long if at all. Whatever the injustice a lot of people are rightly cautious about rocking the boat in their workplace. Suing employers and taking them to tribunals can damage your career in a very permanent way. It can be costly or result in you being ostracised by colleagues or make it incredibly difficult to get work again. Action against your employer is not to be taken lightly, it's no wonder a lot keep their heads down.

I know how that is, but that also means as people they still "don't want it enough." If it's important enough to accomplish, you'll risk lots; if it's less important than other things, you won't risk anything. Neither is more right than the other, it's just a value judgment.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Fafnir wrote:In most cultured countries, it is illegal for a woman to make less money than a man for the same job. It's grounds to sue. And if women aren't going to raise the issue in court, then they deserve to earn less. You don't get social change by complaining, you get it by actually moving to get something done. In a perfect world, people wouldn't discriminate between employees, but that's not always the case. If I were unjustly getting compensated less for my work then another individual for whatever reason, it should raise a serious red flag. Workplace inequality is a very serious issue, and you can't solve it by just parading a random statistic around.

What are you, 19? Probably not been in employment long if at all. Whatever the injustice a lot of people are rightly cautious about rocking the boat in their workplace. Suing employers and taking them to tribunals can damage your career in a very permanent way. It can be costly or result in you being ostracised by colleagues or make it incredibly difficult to get work again. Action against your employer is not to be taken lightly, it's no wonder a lot keep their heads down.

Awwwww, you read my profile.

Yes, I am aware that it will cause you to have to give things up. You may end up having to lose your job. But sometimes, you have to give up a lot to get something changed. Cannerus sums it up perfectly.

Yes, it's pretty scary when you have to take care of a family and you have your job opressing you and you might end up losing it if you fight back, but if you don't do it, who will?

Bringing your boss to a tribunal is a sure way of ending your career path in that workplace. Sure you can try again at another job, but this is exactly why Howard is right. People will rather keep their heads down than lose their job or make working there impossible.

Now, if you work at a Supermarket or some area where you have plenty of alternative jobs then sure, you can do this. But the same can't be said for many jobs that you're looking to make a career out of.

I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

tearing your heart out?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear. -Rosa Parks

What did she have to gain? Discrimination and the fight against it are just as much the discriminatees problem as anyone else's.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear. -Rosa Parks

What did she have to gain? Discrimination and the fight against it are just as much the discriminatees problem as anyone else's.

Option A) Keep your head down, deal with not getting promoted fairly and you'll likely get it in a couple of years anyway.

Option B) Make an issue of it, bring it up as a formal complaint or even a tribunal. At best you get the promotion/fair pay, but endure a deep sense of mistrust from both your boss and co-workers. At worst you fail and either get thrown out or never get a promotion at all in a hostile workplace.

You should be able to see why this is a problem.

Asherian Command wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

tearing your heart out?

What?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear. -Rosa Parks

What did she have to gain? Discrimination and the fight against it are just as much the discriminatees problem as anyone else's.

Option A) Keep your head down, deal with not getting promoted fairly and you'll likely get it in a couple of years anyway.

Option B) Make an issue of it, bring it up as a formal complaint or even a tribunal. At best you get the promotion/fair pay, but endure a deep sense of mistrust from both your boss and co-workers. At worst you fail and either get thrown out or never get a promotion at all in a hostile workplace.

You should be able to see why this is a problem.

Asherian Command wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

tearing your heart out?

What?

Usually a girl at the end of the realtionship sometimes likes feeling like they had just torn someones heart out in a way. Happened to one of my friends. Poor lad.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I never said it was a good thing.

But nothing ever tends to change until people are willing to lose things to change them. That's society for you.

What does a woman gain in said situation?

I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear. -Rosa Parks

What did she have to gain? Discrimination and the fight against it are just as much the discriminatees problem as anyone else's.

Option A) Keep your head down, deal with not getting promoted fairly and you'll likely get it in a couple of years anyway.

Option B) Make an issue of it, bring it up as a formal complaint or even a tribunal. At best you get the promotion/fair pay, but endure a deep sense of mistrust from both your boss and co-workers. At worst you fail and either get thrown out or never get a promotion at all in a hostile workplace.

You should be able to see why this is a problem.

There's no doubt that it's a problem, but who's going to care to listen if no one's going to actually do anything about it? Nobody will care unless someone actually makes a big deal about it. And so far, the exact opposite is happening.

I didn't even mention a relationship. If you were following track of the conversation at all, it's kind of drifted off into Workplace inequality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fafnir wrote:
There's no doubt that it's a problem, but who's going to care to listen if no one's going to actually do anything about it? Nobody will care unless someone actually makes a big deal about it. And so far, the exact opposite is happening.

Making a deal out of it often doesn't get a women in this situation anywhere, that's the problem.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Making a deal out of it often doesn't get a women in this situation anywhere, that's the problem.

Then they should have made a bigger stink, or been more effectual. I never said I couldn't see the problem, I was just saying that if someone who has a family/career to risk doesn't do anything, and someone else with the same situation does neither is the better or worse for it, but one has a reason to expect change while the other doesn't. One wants it more and is more willing to risk to get it.

Actually, one has reason to expect change sooner or later (probably later) if they work hard and prove themselves to be dedicated to the job (more so than a man probably would have to). The other has reason to expect rapid change, but then endure a hostile enviroment for the rest of their career and even less chance of a further advancement.

...or perhaps start a societal revolution. Who knows. That's why it's a risk.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:...or perhaps start a societal revolution. Who knows. That's why it's a risk.

Perhaps a risk is risky because you risk something for said risk?

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:...or perhaps start a societal revolution. Who knows. That's why it's a risk.

Is this the part where I say "You are so edgy and cool"?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:...or perhaps start a societal revolution. Who knows. That's why it's a risk.

Is this the part where I say "You are so edgy and cool"?

Do you deny that change is only brought about by action?