Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.

I'm expecting Experimental Creations to be nerfed to only apply to melee weapons but we'll see.

It would make sense but that means the second half would only apply to wracks and haemies, right? Talos and Grots dont have poisoned melee weapons. But honestly, after the marines supplement, GW nerfing it would be a big slap in the face.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.

I'm expecting Experimental Creations to be nerfed to only apply to melee weapons but we'll see.

It would make sense but that means the second half would only apply to wracks and haemies, right? Talos and Grots dont have poisoned melee weapons.

Yeah, they'd only get the +1S.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
But honestly, after the marines supplement, GW nerfing it would be a big slap in the face.

Giving DE absolutely nothing besides the Obsessions was also a slap in the face.

If they slap you once they'll slap you twice.

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.

I'm expecting Experimental Creations to be nerfed to only apply to melee weapons but we'll see.

It would make sense but that means the second half would only apply to wracks and haemies, right? Talos and Grots dont have poisoned melee weapons.

Yeah, they'd only get the +1S.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
But honestly, after the marines supplement, GW nerfing it would be a big slap in the face.

Giving DE absolutely nothing besides the Obsessions was also a slap in the face.

If they slap you once they'll slap you twice.

Even the obsessions were a slap in the face, if only they were all thematic and at least situationally playable. But no, they just had to give kabals like 4/6 melee-focused obsessions

Grots have poison melee weapons as well. Their flesh gauntlets.

Drager wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.

I would rather have DT/Master of Mutagens for competition. It just works out better in most ways, especially against things like Demon Princes and Primarchs. The damage drop off compared to EC is tiny even against EC compliant targets and the reduction in wounds taken is significant.

Maths to back up the claim of tiny damage change.

Master of Mutagens (MoM) 1/6 + 1/2*2/3 = 1/6 + 1/3 = 9/18

Experimental Creations (EC) 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/18

So that's one more failed wound per shot against <T5. Against T6+ opponents the MoM coven will do more damage than EC obviously.

Maths to back up the reduction in mortals taken

MoM 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/12

EC 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9

Probability of taking a wound is down ~10% per volley from a venom and probability of taking 2 wounds is down even more. If you need the prob calcs let me know.

Masters is only on vehicles/titans tho, so you need to keep that in mind, where the other combo works on everything for the most part.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Grots have poison melee weapons as well. Their flesh gauntlets.

Gauntlets arent poison, theyre S:user Ap 0 D1 with mortal wound on 6+ to wound

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Drager wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.

I would rather have DT/Master of Mutagens for competition. It just works out better in most ways, especially against things like Demon Princes and Primarchs. The damage drop off compared to EC is tiny even against EC compliant targets and the reduction in wounds taken is significant.

Maths to back up the claim of tiny damage change.

Master of Mutagens (MoM) 1/6 + 1/2*2/3 = 1/6 + 1/3 = 9/18

Experimental Creations (EC) 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/18

So that's one more failed wound per shot against <T5. Against T6+ opponents the MoM coven will do more damage than EC obviously.

Maths to back up the reduction in mortals taken

MoM 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/12

EC 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9

Probability of taking a wound is down ~10% per volley from a venom and probability of taking 2 wounds is down even more. If you need the prob calcs let me know.

Masters is only on vehicles/titans tho, so you need to keep that in mind, where the other combo works on everything for the most part.

I think you've got that backwards for Master of Mutagens. It works on everything EXCEPT vehicles/titans. So it works on more stuff than Experimental Creations.

AH yeah i did get it backwards.

So DT+MoM seems to be the best when not shooting vehicles.

Again, keep in mind that if you are in a vehicle meta

Just making sure everyone is thinking of all variables.

 vipoid wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I honestly think covens with dark technomancers and artists of flesh are the winning traits.

You can't combine Artisans of Flesh with any other traits, so this combination isn't possible unfortunately.

I thought I made it clear you can't combine them. I'm saying taking two covens. Take one with artists of flesh and the other with dark technomancers. AoF is better with grotesques but for the other coven use DT and some other obsession.

I've found DT/EC to be an excellent combination. Having S8 on my Talos all the time means I care even less about Urien now than I did before, and that wasn't much to start with, but more importantly the +1 for poison weapons is great in keeping up the efficiency of Venoms once they drop to about 2 wounds and it becomes too dangerous to keep overcharging from DT.

One thing I did find surprising in my game against Raven Guard yesterday was how much I didn't miss Prophets 4++ on my Talos as they just kept on going. Admitedly my opponent didn't have much in the way of heavy firepower as he was relying on 3 standard Repulsers so we'll see how that goes against other opponents.

The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)

Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter

3 Bikes
1 talos

it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions

such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.

oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)

Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter

3 Bikes
1 talos

it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions

such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.

oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.

Hahahahahahaha that's amazing.

"Sorry folks, we forgot how we destroyed the rules for this faction, here have a thing you can't even use most of in one list!

That...is...an unusually stupid move. Seems designed for people who are TRULY new and don't have anyone to warn them against it.

I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

Slaul wrote:
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.

Ah okay, but as somebody who would be planning on buying more to fill out my army it seems like it would be a decent starting point (depending on cost)?

I'm still undecided on whether I want to focus on kabal or coven.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.

Technically its playable, if you either :

decide to forfeit you "chapter tactics".
play the kabals + bikes as Ynnari and pay 1 cp for an auxiliary support detachment on the talos.
play kabals as-is then pay 2cp to bring a cult aux and coven aux.

the models in it are all models a newer player will want eventually, theyre just a bad combination for a fresh start.

Slaul wrote:
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

Drukhari are essentially split into three factions that can Battle Brother ally with each other. There is a single DRUKHARI keyword, just like there is a ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword. So you can take a Deathwatch HQ, a unit of Space Wolves, a unit of Grey Knights, and a unit of Blood Angels and lump them together as an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment and it is legal, but you get no detachment bonuses.

Drukhari are like that.

You can take the following units As KABALS (which have their own traits, relics, etc)

Archon
Court of the Archon characters
Kabalite Warriors
Ravagers
Both Transports
Both Flyers

You can take the following as WYCH CULTS

Succubus
Lelith Hesperax (only as Wych Cult of Strife)
Wyches
Hellions
Reaver Jetbikes
Beastmasters
Beasts
Both Transports
Both Flyers

And you can take the following as HAEMONCULUS COVENS

Haemonculus
Urien Rakarth (only as Prophets of Flesh)
Wracks
Grotesques
Both Pain Engines
Both Transports

All the other units, Incubi Drazar Scourges and Mandrakes, can be taken in detachments as any of the three without breaking detachment bonuses, but they don't gain detachment bonuses.

This box comes with 3 Kabal-only units, 1 Wych Cult-only unit, and 1 Coven-only unit.

You could not field it as a legal detachment that gains any detachment bonus. Its like having a bundle box with a deathwatch flyer and a bunch of space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slaul wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.

DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.

Ah okay, but as somebody who would be planning on buying more to fill out my army it seems like it would be a decent starting point (depending on cost)?

I'm still undecided on whether I want to focus on kabal or coven.

Definitely not terrible. Mostly, I'm just irritated that we now have had 2 start collecting boxes, 1 campaign battle box and now 1 battleforce and we have yet to have any discount box I can use to pick up Wracks and Haemonculi. They're all plastic! Why is it always Kabalites and Reaver Bikes in every box?

Thanks all!

I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them

Slaul wrote:
Thanks all!

I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them

If there isnt an update, there are really good ways to make your own, from lots and cheap, to a good amount and slightly better looking. Age of Sigmar has 2 units that works perfect for Grots, Ogres (a box of 6) and Crypt Horrors (a box of 3) the Crypt are better looking, for you get 1/2 the models, Ogres will get you lots of bodies for super cheap. If you get 3 Talos, that can give you all the bits you need for 10 Grots with the Ogres/Crypts bodies.

I am wondering if there was a collective whinge to GW that the whole "kabals/covens/cults" split was a cool idea - but it just balkanises a range which isn't huge to begin with, and consequently results in fairly uninspiring builds. At the very least give us another HQ for each faction.

Feel the horse may have bolted sadly.

+1 for wanting Wracks and Haemi in a discount box.

But really I just want more for all the factions. And Incubi/Mandrakes/Scourge to get more special rules or chapter tactics. Or in the case of Mandrakes a whole worked-up release.

I feel DT/EC venom spam is probably viable in tournaments - although a bit fiddly due to the limits above. (Although some min units of wracks are cheap obsec). Shooting vehicles and wound on 5s, doing 2 damage if they fail a save is reasonably efficient on anything but the lowest points/wound vehicles. Wounding everything else on 3s - potentially 2s for infantry - also seems good. Okay you will likely pick up mortal wounds - but I feel this isn't exactly the end of the world.

Could be wrong though.

I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?

Harlequins are hard more.

Kabalites in raiders do work well.

Flayed skull wont ever suck, but I really dig some of the custom options

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)

Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter

3 Bikes
1 talos

it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions

such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.

oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.

I get the salt but outside of the bikes everything can be useful in a dark eldar army in that box. As you said it's bad for beginners though.

I may have to check out wych cults again. I usually just avoid them completely. Maybe if I took a small detachment of wyches but they die to a stiff breeze outside combat and as per usual most of our melee can't handle anti tank roles with all the 1 damage.

Can't remember if I told you guys but I faced guard the other day and while grotesques with artists of flesh helps vs multi damage all the single damage weapons add up so 4+ inv from prophets of flesh is still the better choice. Maybe against tau it'll be different but part of what I see is single damage weapons usually have short ranges so of all things artists of flesh might actually be great on transports or monsters with guns like talos.

Dt+ec/Mom could both work but I think there's more promise with artists of flesh still.

Some of those kabalite obsessions were pure garbage though.
The only way to work the supplements new rules is spam warrior with the webway raider ability and bring a couple and suddenly you can ds 3 full times which is technically 6 units. 120 warriors im your lines might not sound scary but where you put them is gonna throw down some nasry shooting when it gets in from ds.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slaul wrote:
Thanks all!

I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them

If there isnt an update, there are really good ways to make your own, from lots and cheap, to a good amount and slightly better looking. Age of Sigmar has 2 units that works perfect for Grots, Ogres (a box of 6) and Crypt Horrors (a box of 3) the Crypt are better looking, for you get 1/2 the models, Ogres will get you lots of bodies for super cheap. If you get 3 Talos, that can give you all the bits you need for 10 Grots with the Ogres/Crypts bodies.

Would the ogre box you refer to be the Ogor Gluttons?

How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?

I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;

1x Start Collecting
1x box of Wyches
1x Raider
2x Venom

Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?

 blood reaper wrote:
How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?

I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;

1x Start Collecting
1x box of Wyches
1x Raider
2x Venom

Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?

Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:

way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.

Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops

Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.

I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?

1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.

2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.

In terms of making the most of Dark Technomancers, a Reaper could be interesting as a Ravager alternative - 2D6 shots S6 AP0 2D@24" or D6 shots S8 AP-4 (D6+1D)@36" with the +1 to Wound.

dumb_numpty wrote:
In terms of making the most of Dark Technomancers, a Reaper could be interesting as a Ravager alternative - 2D6 shots S6 AP0 2D@24" or D6 shots S8 AP-4 (D6+1D)@36" with the +1 to Wound.

the problem is that reapers already suffer from their weapons being heavy. Putting them in a coven means that you get nothing to help them hit. And i personally am not a fan of variable shots on any weapon.

the_scotsman wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?

I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;

1x Start Collecting
1x box of Wyches
1x Raider
2x Venom

Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?

Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:

way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.

Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops

Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.

I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?

1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.

2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.

I'm already thinking two Battalions at the moment with one being Covens using Venoms and the Kabals spamming Raiders. Seems like they can totally spam some damage and objective capturing without losing firepower.

Which combos for Covens particularly stand out, or is the one special character dude worth not going custom?