Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Despite all the time travel and powers he can never go back and prevent the destruction of Krypton/The fall.

Despite all his powers he can't destroy kryptonite/evil.

It can alter people in many ways, even good people... and yet the staunch everyday man or woman is capable of resisting it in a way that Superman can't, its mere presence often an anathema to him.

.. well... maybe anyway

sometimes a plot device is just a plot device after all.

Ahtman wrote:Siegel and Shuster weren't thinking of Jesus when they wrote Action Comics #1.

I'm not so sure. And anyway, the emphasis is on Christ rather than Jesus; on the Messiah rather than on the particular, literal elements of an individual biography. But even in that case, it's difficult to ignore the stark similarities in those particular terms between the story of Jesus and the myth of Superman.

reds8n wrote:sometimes a plot device is just a plot device after all.

This is the great mystery of storytelling -- that things tie back into narratives that have always existed and forward into ones that don't yet exist. It's hard to believe in coincidence once you've had a taste of literary criticism.

You can relate anything back to the Bible for better or for worse.

The truth is Superman and almost all Superheroes have a much simplier origin: They are Mary Sues. I don't consider Mary Sue to be an automatic pejorative like everyone because of the fact it basically spawned the superhero genre, which I like.

Superman is an awkward outsider that is actually an incredible godlike being. If only he could show the girl he's been pining over for years (also not bibllical) the real him she would love him back. But he can't because he is a noble yet tragic figure.

Batman is millionaire who can make whatever he wants and has unlimited resources. He has a tragic past but just that drives but him to get the things down us regular folk can't.

Spider-Man is an actual geek high-schooler who has a super powered secret identity.


That's all it is. "I wish I had a secret identity and superpowers, cuz that would be figgin' awesome". Comic creators tend to be geeks themselves so its only natural but if these characters where created today the internets would have called them Sues. Fortunately, they weren't and a cool genre was spawned by Superman. There's nothing wrong with a little wish fulfillment in a picture book.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You can relate anything back to the Bible for better or for worse.

Sure, if you don't know much about the Bible or the thing you are relating it to ...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The truth is Superman and almost all Superheroes have a much simplier origin: They are Mary Sues.

Okay, now I'm just at the point of wondering why you even read comics.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You can relate anything back to the Bible for better or for worse.

Sure, if you don't know much about the Bible or the thing you are relating it to ...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The truth is Superman and almost all Superheroes have a much simplier origin: They are Mary Sues.

Okay, now I'm just at the point of wondering why you even read comics.

Manchu, God hates gay people. Actually people have been taking parts of the bible to make their arguement whatever it may be forever. It's a big book and you can make any arguement you want with it.

As for the second part: if you quote the entire post you get some context there. You reaction is so visceral you are totally being an "internet person".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:God hates gay people.

Good example of how not everything can actually be related back ... no matter how hard some people want it to be the case.

As for the second part: if you quote the entire post you get some context there. You reaction is so visceral you are totally being an "internet person".

I don't know KC: in the great debate over whether things are complex and meaningful versus things being superficial and facile, it seems to me the former will always win over the latter. In fact, it's hardly a debate.

EDIT: Also, just because I didn't re-post your entire post doesn't mean I didn't read it and react to it.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:God hates gay people.

Good example of how not everything can actually be related back ... no matter how hard some people want it to be the case.

As for the second part: if you quote the entire post you get some context there. You reaction is so visceral you are totally being an "internet person".

I don't know KC: in the great debate over whether things are complex and meaningful versus things being superficial and facile, it seems to me the former will always win over the latter. In fact, it's hardly a debate.

EDIT: Also, just because I didn't re-post your entire post doesn't mean I didn't read it and react to it.

Actually you didn't. I was basically saying stay calm and let me explain and then did. All you said was "I don't even know why you read comics". That's not a fair reaction

You said that comic book characters are Mary Sues. To emphasize this point, after giving a few examples, you said "That's all it is is." That's pretty clear. But you clarified further: "wish fulfillment in a picture book." So I'm just addressing what you wrote, clarified, then re-clarified. And that's my honest reaction: if you think so very, very little of super hero comics, if they mean so little to you, if they're just "wish fulfillment in a picture book" then why bother with them?

He might just like seeing Hulk smash. Certainly there are plenty of books for people with that desire. But obviously, it doesn't mean that represents the entire medium just because it's the component of said medium that one enjoys most.

I agree. Hulk does smash. But behind that extremely superficial factoid, which anyone can detect at the merest glance with no familiarity with the character or the medium or the genre, is a story about a mild scientist who turns into a rampaging brute when angry. To say in response to some analysis of the actual story " oh no, it's just a big green dude and he's awesome cuase he punches crap" is not an equally valid viewpoint.

Manchu wrote:You said that comic book characters are Mary Sues. To emphasize this point, after giving a few examples, you said "That's all it is is." That's pretty clear. But you clarified further: "wish fulfillment in a picture book." So I'm just addressing what you wrote, clarified, then re-clarified. And that's my honest reaction: if you think so very, very little of super hero comics, if they mean so little to you, if they're just "wish fulfillment in a picture book" then why bother with them?

I said " I don't consider Mary Sue to be an automatic pejorative like everyone because of the fact it basically spawned the superhero genre, which I like. "

and I'm glad their works weren't shouted down in their time because "a cool genre was spawned by Superman"

I didn't say they are unimportant to me. It seems you are misunderstanding me. I'm saying I don't even think Mary Sueness should even be a pejorative because of comics.

Manchu wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Siegel and Shuster weren't thinking of Jesus when they wrote Action Comics #1.

I'm not so sure.

It has been ahwile, but I recall an interview where one of them made specific mention of the Moses story being an influence. He wasn't supposed to be a stand in for Moses, but they were inspired by elements of the story.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm saying I don't even think Mary Sueness should even be a pejorative because of comics.

I hate the phrase "Mary Sue" because it doesn't clarify anything. For my own part, Mary Sue = bad. It's lazy story telling with the primary objective of author wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment, in turn, is also not a good thing because our wishes are base as often as noble. Wishing to be good doesn't actually help you be good if you don't know what being good means. IMO, comic characters like Superman are not primarily about wishing to be good but about what it means to be good. It's not an escape so much as a lesson. It's not getting away from your problems -- it's facing them and solving them with wisdom and nobility. So that's my position clarified and, if I understand yours, I think it should be clear why we seem to disagree.

Ahtman wrote:He wasn't supposed to be a stand in for Moses, but they were inspired by elements of the story.

Yeah, finding Kal'El in the field is extremely evocative of Moses among the reeds. And of course, they find Moses with the cloth of Levites like how they find Kal with his cape.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm saying I don't even think Mary Sueness should even be a pejorative because of comics.

I hate the phrase "Mary Sue" because it doesn't clarify anything. For my own part, Mary Sue = bad. It's lazy story telling with the primary objective of author wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment, in turn, is also not a good thing because our wishes are base as often as noble. Wishing to be good doesn't actually help you be good if you don't know what being good means. IMO, comic characters like Superman are not primarily about wishing to be good but about what it means to be good. It's not an escape so much as a lesson. It's not getting away from your problems -- it's facing them and solving them with wisdom and nobility. So that's my position clarified and, if I understand yours, I think it should be clear why we seem to disagree

That's why I'm asking you to seperate the visceral hate the internet has ingrained in you about the term. Superman is proof how Mary Sue like qualities are not automatically bad. It's not about wishing to be good it's about wishing to be powerful enough to do good for the world.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's not about wishing to be good it's about wishing to be powerful enough to do good for the world.

But that isn't simple wish fulfillment. That's a process, the ennobling process of growing and changing by reading stories and thinking about them, reflecting on them and wondering about how they apply to the world.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's not about wishing to be good it's about wishing to be powerful enough to do good for the world.

But that isn't simple wish fulfillment. That's a process, the ennobling process of growing and changing by reading stories and thinking about them, reflecting on them and wondering about how they apply to the world.

Wishing to be powerful enough to change the world is simple. How that power is actually applied and how people react to it? Well, perhaps that's the difference between a good comic and a bad one. Reading about that is what I enjoy about comics.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Reading about that is what I enjoy about comics.

Well ... that is indeed what we've been talking about all along. In fact, this is exactly my point as to why Superman is an exceptionally relevant character in the twilight of this "every man for himself" culture of libertarianism.

....must be his Canadian origin.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:....must be his Canadian origin.

I don't disagree.

That's quite a discussion you have there. And still I am torn between a deep analytical approach and... well, Hulk smash.
I'm not saying that there isn't more to the Hulk, but that's not why I want to read about him.


Just had another thought. Let me think about the characters I do like to read about and why. I've always enjoyed Spider-Man and superficially, this might be because Spidey has awesome moves and is really funny. But in the past few years I noticed something about me reading Spidey stories: I really enjoy it, when things, for once, are working out for him. Like his friendship with Tony Stark and the good he was doing right before gak hit the fan with Civil War and One More Day. And even more in USM post-Ultimatum. His life was good. He had friends, family, the city loved him.

And yet, when you think about it, Spider-Man has rarely been a character who has a good life. He deserves one, but most of the time it's one tragedy after another. When I heard that ultimate Peter was about to be killed, I was upset. Because I liked how his life was going so well.

Now, the point I'm trying to make here (I think) is, that comics are probably more than "simple fun" to me, if a character like Peter Parker can grow on me that much. This might have not much to do with the Superman vs. Moses debate, but it says, that something at some point made click with Spidey and me. And that is why I'm upset when his life is going down the drain again.


Then again, I also like Daniel Way's Deadpool...

Yep, this is what I meant a few pages ago by saying that we don't read-and-then-analyse. We analyze as we read. Reading is an act of analysis. They aren't separate things. I think you'll find it's very difficult to look at an issue of Hulk and only think "Hulk smash."

I don't want to steal Red's thunder, but here's a bit of comic related news for a change: Grant Morrison is done with monthly superheroes for a while:

The "Action Comics" run concludes with issue #16, "Batman Incorporated" wraps up my take with issue #12, and after that I don’t have any plans for monthly superhero books for a while. "Multiversity" is eight issues and I’m 30-odd pages into a Wonder Woman project but those are finite stories.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/171941-comics-grant-morrison-exiting-action-comics-batman-inc

I just read Action Comics #2 and enjoyed it, but haven't read anything from the new Batman Inc. yet.

Manchu wrote:Yep, this is what I meant a few pages ago by saying that we don't read-and-then-analyse. We analyze as we read. Reading is an act of analysis. They aren't separate things. I think you'll find it's very difficult to look at an issue of Hulk and only think "Hulk smash."

Nope, I never have trouble not thinking.

Saw the first Young Justice episode this morning, really liked it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yep, this is what I meant a few pages ago by saying that we don't read-and-then-analyse. We analyze as we read. Reading is an act of analysis. They aren't separate things. I think you'll find it's very difficult to look at an issue of Hulk and only think "Hulk smash."

Nope, I never have trouble not thinking.

....


I need someone to give me a quick update/Yes or No vote on the whole Avengers vs. X-Men series - worth reading?

Alpharius wrote:I need someone to give me a quick update/Yes or No vote on the whole Avengers vs. X-Men series - worth reading?

Here's what I know and it isn't much: My LCS accidentally put four issues of AvX titles in my box, which I duly bought without checking. I got home and found the mistake. At first, I thought I'd just let it slide and read them as part of KC's challenge that I read more Marvel (or at least less predominately DC titles). I read one of them and then immediately drove back to the store to return them. So it was just an impression but it wasn't a good one.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Saw the first Young Justice episode this morning, really liked it.

Young Justice really is the biggest reason I'm keeping Cartoon Network at this point.

It really is that good.

So does anyone here read The Manhattan Projects ?



What if Oppenheimer had an evil twin brother who devoured
his body and took over at the Manhattan Projects? What if
the Manhattan Project wasn't just developing the nuclear bomb
and was instead developing all sorts of weaponized sci-fi
concepts?

He also wrote a self-contained super hero story called
Red Mass for Mars. Great read, and it condenses a story
that would take many comic book series years to tell.

Alpharius wrote:

I need someone to give me a quick update/Yes or No vote on the whole Avengers vs. X-Men series - worth reading?

I like it. Little behind on it right now though and of course you need to pick up some titles that are not the main title to totally know what's going on.

My take on AvX is that it's *very* dumb, but can be fun at the aforementioned "Hulk smash" level. Maybe it's only because of the "Vs" books, but I feel like it's not taking itself as seriously as, say, Siege or Fear Itself did. Both of which of course felt like a ton of buildup for a predictable and flat ending.

Having said that, I've only picked up a few of the books in this latest mega-event. If I'd purchased AvX-related 20 books to this point, it's possible I'd be angry and bitter about it, I dunno. If you think a series revolving around "who would win, [insert Avenger] or [insert mutant] could be fun, it might be worth paging through an issue or two.