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I’ve come up with a 2000 pt balanced comp list that has the units I’ve wanted for my play style. It’s a core of 9” Imagifier covering Exos and SB squads, 3 Seraphim in reserve, and 2 units of 4 Mortiifers-
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
More Mortifiers to add to the weight of HB dice and attacks with the other 2 Morty units;
OR
Zephyrim to keep the opponent on defense which can also come in when the surviving Morts make contact for reroll synergies.
I don’t know which would be better? I like Mortifiers since they can be shooting their HBs from turn one and charging with the other 8 Morts, but they Zephyrim keep the opponent guessing and can also lend a hand to Morts when they come on.
Your opinions pls
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 05:03:02
Grundz wrote: And everyone knows 30 boy ork squads are the gold standard of durability
kay smart guy. they also nuclear strike an entire Primaris Squad.
They do the same when they get the jump on Zephyrim squads too.
Yeah? So? that's a complete non sequitur, but sure?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve come up with a 2000 pt balanced comp list that has the units I’ve wanted for my play style. It’s a core of 9” Imagifier covering Exos and SB squads, 3 Seraphim in reserve, and 2 units of 4 Mortiifers-
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
More Mortifiers to add to the weight of HB dice and attacks with the other 2 Morty units;
OR
Zephyrim to keep the opponent on defense which can also come in when the surviving Morts make contact for reroll synergies.
I don’t know which would be better? I like Mortifiers since they can be shooting their HBs from turn one and charging with the other 8 Morts, but they Zephyrim keep the opponent guessing and can also lend a hand to Morts when they come on.
Your opinions pls
Killer z's give you a very high chance of making it there so.probably Killer z's
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 05:21:33
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Thanks for the replies on the Zephyrim so far. Sounds like not that many people have run them vanilla. I'll just try it out to see how it works.
Regarding Seraphim, what's the point/purpose of 3 squads of 5 with inferno pistols? You can only Deadly Descent one of them in turn 2 and one in turn 3, leaving the third squad to do nothing upon arrival. I've found these girls to be rather pointless if they can't do anything the turn they arrive because they are very easy to kill after coming down. Sure, they might not get killed, but then what's the point really of the unit if they only perform from turn 3 onward (while being vulnerable/inflexible since turn 2)?
@ Us3less: Starting them on the board also gives you a bodyguard for Celestine if you choose to break your invuln bubble and use her more offensively; swap the infernos for flamers or run them stock to add a few more bodies. I've done this to have Celestine's aura waiting when the T2 deep strikers arrive.
If you're building a brigade and trying to leave points for a second detachment, use the 3rd Fast slot for stormbolter Dominions with extra bodies. If they give you two turns of Blessed Bolts they probably earn their points back, and if they get shot up after one turn, they might save your Celestians or Repentia from small arms fire in the process. Because of the strat, like Seraphim, your first unit of Dominions is worth way more than the second.
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
Only benefit those zephyrs would have being br is strat. In return no order bonus, no imagifier, no canoness rr, nothing. And you pay 1cp. I would just put them on det myself
If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
Jancoran wrote: Zephyrim fully buffed kill 30 boy ork squads.
Even without being bloody rose? How much do we lose when they're strength 3?
A lot, the reroll to wound with a good chance to wound is their strength, +1 to wound is big against a lot of targets.
possible considerations
-a canoness with the casket to give the other guy -1 to toughness if you can't give the zeraphim the +1 to strength due to <order>
-a supreme command detachment (bloody rose canoness is good, and a missionary gets you 2/3rds of the way there) to get those bloody rose zeraphim into your list, just save that miracle dice to guarantee the drop charge so the defensive buffs don't matter
Some math
10 zeraphim, completely unsupported:
10.5w vs T3 4+
6.5 w vs T4 3+
3.5 w vs T6+ 3+
10 zeraphim, missionary, canoness, casket (so fully-ish buffed, non bloody rose)
21.4w vs T3 4+
18w vs T4 3+
13.3 vs T6 3+
7.3 vs T8 3+
with just bloody rose + stratagem, no other support
17w vs t3 4+
13.5w vs T4 3+
9w vs T6+ 3+
with bloody rose + stratagem + missionary (not order locked bonus) and casket (not order locked bonus)
25.8w vs t3 4+
22.7w vs t4 3+
18.2w vs t6 3+
12.1 vs T8 3+
bloody rose + stratagem + missionary + canoness + triumph +1 str +casket
38.7w vs t3 4+
38.7w vs t4 3+
27.3 vs t6 3+
27.3 vs t8 3+
As you can see its a pretty sharp curve for how killy they get, to almost every swing killing with full buffs, however even with out-of-order available support, they still deliver /a lot/ of damage."
Doing 40 wounds is nice for multi assault but you're really banking a lot on one squad
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 13:58:56
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If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
He also needs hq. Strat he gets anyway but yeah no order and costs cp for strat is expensive
If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
He also needs hq. Strat he gets anyway but yeah no order and costs cp for strat is expensive
I would take an Aux Support detachment (costs me 1 CP but worth it to me) of Bloody Rose Zephyrim. So no, I don’t need HQ or any other units, and I can make them any Order I want. My object is to throw them at something without needing supporting characters, so I’m not worried about wether they have a missionary or other support nearby.
See my list for how it synergizes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:28:59
I would take an Aux Support detachment (costs me 1 CP but worth it to me) of Bloody Rose Zephyrim. So no, I don’t need HQ or any other units, and I can make them any Order I want. My object is to throw them at something without needing supporting characters, so I’m not worried about wether they have a missionary or other support nearby.
See my list for how it synergizes.
Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
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Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
I don't think AUX detachments get Order benefits either. You can't for example take an AUX detachment of Deathwing Terminators and then use the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic. So in this case you'd not get the Bloody Rose Order benefit of extra attack and AP if they are in an AUX detachment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:59:31
Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
I don't think AUX detachments get Order benefits either. You can't for example take an AUX detachment of Deathwing Terminators and then use the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic. So in this case you'd not get the Bloody Rose Order benefit of extra attack and AP if they are in an AUX detachment.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 18:53:02
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
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So then in my list I’d rather go with a unit of 4 Mortifiers in a Auxiliary Detachment, make them the frontline unit (since they won’t benefit from Strats) and have the other two units behind them. Another option then would be to use Penitent Engines in the Aux Detachment and put them in front of the Mortifiers since the PEs have a 5+++.
davidgr33n wrote: So then in my list I’d rather go with a unit of 4 Mortifiers in a Auxiliary Detachment, make them the frontline unit (since they won’t benefit from Strats) and have the other two units behind them. Another option then would be to use Penitent Engines in the Aux Detachment and put them in front of the Mortifiers since the PEs have a 5+++.
I've reviewed the rules to be sure and have concluded that the Aux Support Detachment of 10 Bloody Rose Zephyrim will have full access to Conviction and Stratagems, so don't drop them for that reason. However, you will gain no synergy from their Pennant (Order-based). You could still use the Embodied Prophecy Stratagem with them as it is not Order-based.
Makes me think of an alternative Detachment for you. If you put 11 Mortifiers/Penintent Engines and an HQ of your choice into a Spearhead detachment. I'm sure you can find a use for a 3rd Cannoness or 2nd Missionary. You'd then gain a CP rather than losing one on the Detachment.
Lammia wrote: There's always a use for a third Canoness
With artifacts being what they are, its pretty easy to justify them now. I remember when a Canoness was a tax. now I have ENTIRELY affordable wrecking balls in my list. Got one that kills like...5 Primaris on a charge! I mean you cannot beat that.
I'm really startung to look forward to crashing the party with all this unexpected melee force. People are used to overunning us and butchering us down to like 7 models by games end. I can't wait to turn those tables with my new list. alpha armies are not going to like it.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
The only problem is modeling them to look unique instead of looking the same but with different arms, damn lazy-ass monopose models. But I'm working out ways to get around that.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Double VH battalion with 6 squads of BSS with storm bolters (and the odd melta) some dominions with SB for blessed bolts. 3 excorcists, a squad of rets with 4 X MM. 2 cannonness for buffing stuff, Celestine and a missionary plus 2 imagifiers.
Then a third department of BR spear head using 3 X individual anchorites a squad of 10 X zeph and a small unit of seraphim with infero pistols. Leading them is a cannonness with righteous rage and beneficence.
Plan is for one imagifier to sit with the excorcists and help them out while the other buffs the BSS on objectives. The BR girls will then counter punch turn 2 with mortifiers and jump troops.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
If it were my list, I'd try to shift things towards a Brigade. If you peel off a few stormbolters from your BSS units to make a second Dominion squad and shift the Seraphim over you're most of the way there, and I suspect you'll be glad for the CP. I don't have any experience with Mortifiers, but three doesn't seem like a lot to build a central tactic around. I think it's probably a Canoness you want to park with your Exos, not an Imagifier, who does a lot more for Valorous Heart infantry and will probably be out of range by turn 2 or 3 if she moves up with them. I've taken to moving my auras up with the troops and letting the Exos fend for themselves unless I know I'm facing large volume mid-AP fire. That BR Canoness is an awesome choice, though.
Similarly, I'd sooner send the auras forward, even with the 9" upgrade. I'd worry about Marine armies camping in cover 29.5" away. Facing any army where you have to go close the range yourself to make the most of the shooting phase, you'll be faced with leaving the Exos behind or limiting your own range management moves. You might think about the souped up Canoness/Imagifier going up with the infantry and leaving a bare bones Canoness behind for the rerolls after Turn 1... but it's a non-issue against armies that come for you. I've had trouble making the heavy flamer Rets + Holy Trinity work consistently... when it does, it's great, but the stars really need to align for it to earn its points. I think with your extra bodies and the Cherubs you might just pull it off.
on turn 1 have repentia in a rhino for first turn charge, then cycle other units in
it looks fine, but you're entirely relying on having an opponent that isn't going to argue that he has line of sight on the imagifier overtop of the rhino(s)
I would try and spring for a 5 lady squad of celestians to babysit that warlord
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 00:24:02
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Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
Also, Canonesses are great and priests, hospitallers and dialogus are useful and order agnostic. I don't see any good reason to no invest the 200pts necessary to put together 2 Melee Canoness, an imagifier, and one more support character.
Especially considering, in my personal experience, armies tend to rush into our faces, which means you'll often be able to give zephyrim the canoness, imagifier and priest buffs, which makes them utterly terrifying against anything T7 or lower.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So having seen a live version of the battle sanctum(mine is stuck in Covid limbo atm) it's pretty obscene for only 50 points.
The thing is HUGE and has 3 full floors worth of delicious, delicious cover. You could conceivably give an exorcist, several battle sister squads, and a unit of repentia cover while staying within range of your stoic imagifier.
Or you could put ally units that benefit from cover into it and give them a commanding position on the battlefield. Ravenguard, and grey knights both get bonuses for being within terrain, all we'd need to do is figure out which units can provide the most output while camping out the structure.
The shenanigans with the statue are ultimately irrelevant simply due to how freakin big the main structure is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 15:54:54
