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Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Elbows wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Hold the phone. Primaris boys in a Rhino? What heresy is this.

Silver Templars (a pure Primaris army) have Land Raiders, so it's likely a thing we'll see on the table eventually.


I wouldn't hold your breath...


Considering it is the gw rules team.
Which had whole armies not beeing able to even access their transports
I am with Elbows on this one

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 aka_mythos wrote:
Primaris sound great on paper but if you think about it if a marine chapter is already struggling to maintain their ranks, giving them a more demanding to produce Marine or expecting them to maintain their ranks with them would tax a chapter's resources. With the stated attrition rate, every time you stand up a company of Primaris you could have instead created a whole new chapter. Do chapter's have that kind of surplus resources and man power? What's more worthwhile Primaris or double the number of Chapters?

Even if the attrition rate was true, humans are cheap. Adding a few more dead aspirants hardly changes anything (especially seeing hilariously dumb and wasteful practices of some chapters, like say Space Wolves). What is not cheap is all the power armour, bolters (and ammunition), plasma guns, tanks, dreads, etc, etc - from this perspective it makes far more sense to put limited resources into arming far better warrior, not to spam extra marines and then give them glorified guard gear, especially seeing then you have much bigger chance of geneseed being lost outright or diluted/degenerated in the increased production.

Funnily enough, that is one of the few things Phil Kelly got right recently - just look up (or better, don't) his Tau books, they are hilariously dumb and fluff-wrecking, but they do manage to show difference between squatmarine and primaris. Tau have no idea what to expect from them, tactics and weapons good against SM previously fail, primaris being more of a soldiers than chainsword waving madmen counter Tau attempts at feints and ambushes with ease, all in all, a company of primaris kills more Tau in the space of a single book than two entire battleforces of squatmarines managed in previous three (though to be fair, a lot of it was Kelly being stupid and writing SM like ogryns)...
   
Made in gb
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





It’s not that humans are cheap, it’s that progenoid glands are very much not. You get two per marine, they take ten years to mature, and if you lose them both that’s a marine you can’t replace until the next batch matures. Losing a neophyte halfway through implantation or training means losing both progenoids by default.
That said, only chapters with significant defects or stupid-high mutation rates seem to have issue with making their tithes to the Adeptus Mechanicus gene-banks. And unlike planetary governors they’re entitled to withhold that if it endangers the integrity of the chapter. Just expect an inquisitor to show up asking awkward questions if it’s withheld too long…

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mr_Rose wrote:
It’s not that humans are cheap, it’s that progenoid glands are very much not. You get two per marine, they take ten years to mature, and if you lose them both that’s a marine you can’t replace until the next batch matures. Losing a neophyte halfway through implantation or training means losing both progenoids by default.
That said, only chapters with significant defects or stupid-high mutation rates seem to have issue with making their tithes to the Adeptus Mechanicus gene-banks. And unlike planetary governors they’re entitled to withhold that if it endangers the integrity of the chapter. Just expect an inquisitor to show up asking awkward questions if it’s withheld too long…

Eh, I always had a problem with the progenoids in aspirants. If they weren't recoverable or duplicable somehow (say, by old fluff of growing extra ones in chained slaves) chapters like Space Wolves or Flesh Tearers would cease to exist after a decade. They often lose more than two aspirants per every marine that actually manages to get into black carapace stage, the numbers simply don't add up.

Even your withholding example shows this - Huron managed to produce 3500 marines out of what, a decade or two of withheld geneseed? There must be a way to accelerate production of genetic stock somehow, or Badab War would be a Badab weekend skirmish...
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

 Irbis wrote:
 aka_mythos wrote:
Primaris sound great on paper but if you think about it if a marine chapter is already struggling to maintain their ranks, giving them a more demanding to produce Marine or expecting them to maintain their ranks with them would tax a chapter's resources. With the stated attrition rate, every time you stand up a company of Primaris you could have instead created a whole new chapter. Do chapter's have that kind of surplus resources and man power? What's more worthwhile Primaris or double the number of Chapters?

Even if the attrition rate was true, humans are cheap. Adding a few more dead aspirants hardly changes anything (especially seeing hilariously dumb and wasteful practices of some chapters, like say Space Wolves). What is not cheap is all the power armour, bolters (and ammunition), plasma guns, tanks, dreads, etc, etc - from this perspective it makes far more sense to put limited resources into arming far better warrior, not to spam extra marines and then give them glorified guard gear, especially seeing then you have much bigger chance of geneseed being lost outright or diluted/degenerated in the increased production.

Funnily enough, that is one of the few things Phil Kelly got right recently - just look up (or better, don't) his Tau books, they are hilariously dumb and fluff-wrecking, but they do manage to show difference between squatmarine and primaris. Tau have no idea what to expect from them, tactics and weapons good against SM previously fail, primaris being more of a soldiers than chainsword waving madmen counter Tau attempts at feints and ambushes with ease, all in all, a company of primaris kills more Tau in the space of a single book than two entire battleforces of squatmarines managed in previous three (though to be fair, a lot of it was Kelly being stupid and writing SM like ogryns)...


I read Dark Imperium and the Primaris in that book were nothing but glorified giant guardsmen. I dislike when 40k writers talk about "tactics and strategy" and then just have their super soldiers stand there in the open and shoot until they win. I haven't read the Phil Kelly books (sorry you did lol) but I can only assume the Primaris's unpredictable tactics and strategy mostly amounts to having mountains of plot armor and an opponent who learned military tactics from the inside of a blank cardboard box.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



East Tennessee

ClockworkZion wrote:
 Redemption wrote:
Coldfyre at B&C caught this bit in the fluff of the Ultramarines Supplement:



Another likely upcoming Primaris unit called the Hellfury. From the progression shown it looks to be fire support infantry squad, possibly in Gravis armour.

A lot of theory crafting seems to be melta or flamer based, though I have seen some mention a desire for Volkite.


Nah Man Pichu wrote:Hellfury to me sounds like an extension conceptually for Hellblasters. So maybe Primaris Devastator equivalents? Regular Mk X armor with heavy weapons? Would probably pair nicely with the Impulsor.


I thought there was a fluff bit the SM codex 1.0 about Salamander Hellblasters armed with flamers. I can’t find it right now and I have to go to work, but I’ll try to look for it tomorrow.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





that was agressors

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BrotherGecko wrote:
I read Dark Imperium and the Primaris in that book were nothing but glorified giant guardsmen. I dislike when 40k writers talk about "tactics and strategy" and then just have their super soldiers stand there in the open and shoot until they win. I haven't read the Phil Kelly books (sorry you did lol) but I can only assume the Primaris's unpredictable tactics and strategy mostly amounts to having mountains of plot armor and an opponent who learned military tactics from the inside of a blank cardboard box.

You don't want to know

Spoiler:
The writing is so bad that in not one, but two books Tau combatants are being shown mercy (!!!) by space marines and one of the protagonists survives only because marine has no idea how to kill a wounded Tau without using his gun (despite PK describing killing enemies with fists and kicks a few chapters back). Oh, and a sidekick psychic inquisitor apparently has no idea what a daemon is and can hide full size SM combi-grav gun down tight pants. No, this is not a joke.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





wow and I thought war of secrets was bad

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Irbis wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
I read Dark Imperium and the Primaris in that book were nothing but glorified giant guardsmen. I dislike when 40k writers talk about "tactics and strategy" and then just have their super soldiers stand there in the open and shoot until they win. I haven't read the Phil Kelly books (sorry you did lol) but I can only assume the Primaris's unpredictable tactics and strategy mostly amounts to having mountains of plot armor and an opponent who learned military tactics from the inside of a blank cardboard box.

You don't want to know

Spoiler:
The writing is so bad that in not one, but two books Tau combatants are being shown mercy (!!!) by space marines and one of the protagonists survives only because marine has no idea how to kill a wounded Tau without using his gun (despite PK describing killing enemies with fists and kicks a few chapters back). Oh, and a sidekick psychic inquisitor apparently has no idea what a daemon is and can hide full size SM combi-grav gun down tight pants. No, this is not a joke.


Those books were pretty bad.

I hate war of secrets because of how the protrayed both the dark angels and the primaris. They are so childish. I hate those books that show primaris marines as complete and utter foolish children.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 aka_mythos wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

Breaking it downt hat way does seem to make it make more sense. The 10th basically is a sort of battle company of new recruits then with Reivers being the veterans of those recruits.

Yes...and no.

Per p19:
The Chapter's 10th Company is its Scout Company. The majority of its members are neophytes--those whose combat training, physical transformation and cultural initiation is still incomplete--but the company also contains a standing force of ten Vanguard Space Marine squads. These warriors can be called upon to conduct a variety of stealth operations behind enemy lines. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not fixed, meaning that some Chapters will be able to field comparatively large 10th Company formations while others must husband their limited resources carefully.


The only set thing we have is the ten Vanguard Space Marine Squads...which are mentioned as distinct from the neophytes/recruits. There's a popout on top of p19 that suggests that once the Neophytes/Recruits undergo the Primaris treatments, they then are assigned to the Vanguard Squads to take all the different roles on--but it seems that Reivers might be the start of the path if you go by page 14-15. Gaius Pollandus, after his body had accepted his gene-seed and all of his organs, he joined Reiver Squad Agamnus. From there, he later got assigned to an Infiltrator Squad and advanced to the 9th to join an Eliminator Squad.

Highly suggest reading p14-15 though.

There's also a mention on p18 that talks about the Battle Companies and how squads break up if they're not being broken up by 5s.
...for example, were six battle-brothers to take to the field as Aggressors, the remaining four warriors of their squad might find roles piloting Invictor Warsuits, driving the strike force's Rhino APCs and the like.

The 10th company is a bit confusing now, but okay.

I've got a bit of a theory regarding Primaris vehicles though, after the blurb about the Executioner being inspired by the Razorback: The Repulsor is the Rhino Equiv, the Executioner is a Razorback equiv, and the Impulsor is actually a Landspeeder Storm equiv.
It really makes me wonder why GW hasn't just done away with the previously established Chapter size and composition. In lore Roboute admits the Codex Astartes was flawed and has since made changes. It would make far more sense for Roboute to say "Chapters should be 11 or 12 companies, and here are the 1 or 2 companies of primaris to fill out those ranks" or even if he said "Scouts/Neophytes they don't count towards your 1000"... rather than to try to shoe horn Primaris into random places through out the Chapters. With Guillimans in lore reforms where he introduced the Primaris into the Astartes ranks, it would make sense if he made other changes besides "take these Primaris". There are also practical reasons too... in lore the attrition rate for producing Primaris is suppose to be 10 times higher... you'd need more than just 1 company of scouts or neophytes to maintain a chapter now... in fact you'd need just about as many neophytes to maintain one company of Primaris as you would to maintain the rest of the chapter.

Primaris sound great on paper but if you think about it if a marine chapter is already struggling to maintain their ranks, giving them a more demanding to produce Marine or expecting them to maintain their ranks with them would tax a chapter's resources. With the stated attrition rate, every time you stand up a company of Primaris you could have instead created a whole new chapter. Do chapter's have that kind of surplus resources and man power? What's more worthwhile Primaris or double the number of Chapters?



Well, the thing is, Scouts already didn't count towards the 1000 marine limit. Every instance I can recall said that there was no set number of Scout Squads, as they are recruits in training. The idea there being that a good applicant doesn't get frozen out because the scouts are full.

That said, right now the idea is "phasing out." Every time an Assault Marine dies, he is replaced by an Inceptor or Reiver. Every time a Devastator dies, he is replaced by a Hellblaster, Suppressor or Eliminator. Every time a Tactical Marine dies, he is replaced by an Intercessor. Maybe not within the same squad. But say, 15 Tactical Marines die in a battle company, across 9 in one squad, 6 in the other. One from the 6 might move over and make a new full squad of 10, while the 5 remain their own squad, and a new, 5 man squad of Intercessors from the Reserve companies joins the battle company. As more of the Tactical Marines perish, the remaining 5 move into the 10, and more Intercessors join the 5-man squad until its up to 10. As the 10-man Tacts die off, more Intercessors move up to replace them.



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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Deadshot wrote:

That said, right now the idea is "phasing out." Every time an Assault Marine dies, he is replaced by an Inceptor or Reiver. Every time a Devastator dies, he is replaced by a Hellblaster, Suppressor or Eliminator. Every time a Tactical Marine dies, he is replaced by an Intercessor. Maybe not within the same squad. But say, 15 Tactical Marines die in a battle company, across 9 in one squad, 6 in the other. One from the 6 might move over and make a new full squad of 10, while the 5 remain their own squad, and a new, 5 man squad of Intercessors from the Reserve companies joins the battle company. As more of the Tactical Marines perish, the remaining 5 move into the 10, and more Intercessors join the 5-man squad until its up to 10. As the 10-man Tacts die off, more Intercessors move up to replace them.


That's not what is happening. Many chapters are still making standard marines alongside primaris marines.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





I imagine it'll depend from chapter to chapter, so The Emperor's Hawks spaceMarine chapter may be going full Primaris and thus phasing them out, however the Imperial Hawks chapter may have supply issues with getting Primaris equipment and thus only be able to maintain 200 suits of the Mark X armor, and 5 repulsor tanks, and thus chooses to maintain a force of 200 primaris, (100 of which is the vanguard) and thus only the most promising canidates are selected for Primaris treatments

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

So hey, have Space Marines gotten anything to allow them to shoot twice or fight twice, excepting Aggressors?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Nurglitch wrote:
So hey, have Space Marines gotten anything to allow them to shoot twice or fight twice, excepting Aggressors?
SM have the same stratagem as before, Honour the Chapter, that lets them fight again.

WHIRLWIND and THUNDERFIRE CANNON can shoot out of LOS twice via Stratagem.

A CHARACTER can shoot when they get killed via Stratagem.


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Steady Advance stratagem also allows infantry who moved to get Bolter Discipline.

   
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BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine it'll depend from chapter to chapter, so The Emperor's Hawks spaceMarine chapter may be going full Primaris and thus phasing them out, however the Imperial Hawks chapter may have supply issues with getting Primaris equipment and thus only be able to maintain 200 suits of the Mark X armor, and 5 repulsor tanks, and thus chooses to maintain a force of 200 primaris, (100 of which is the vanguard) and thus only the most promising canidates are selected for Primaris treatments

The codex fluff section covers some of it, but I suspect that the reality is it's just GW adjusting the business strategy to the market reality not be quite inline with what the marketing department though people would accept.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine it'll depend from chapter to chapter, so The Emperor's Hawks spaceMarine chapter may be going full Primaris and thus phasing them out, however the Imperial Hawks chapter may have supply issues with getting Primaris equipment and thus only be able to maintain 200 suits of the Mark X armor, and 5 repulsor tanks, and thus chooses to maintain a force of 200 primaris, (100 of which is the vanguard) and thus only the most promising canidates are selected for Primaris treatments

The codex fluff section covers some of it, but I suspect that the reality is it's just GW adjusting the business strategy to the market reality not be quite inline with what the marketing department though people would accept.


ohh look another unsubstantiated "primaris are failing" line. I think it's just as likely both primaris and old marines are selling well and GW has no incentive to ditch the old marine line if people wanna buy em

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine it'll depend from chapter to chapter, so The Emperor's Hawks spaceMarine chapter may be going full Primaris and thus phasing them out, however the Imperial Hawks chapter may have supply issues with getting Primaris equipment and thus only be able to maintain 200 suits of the Mark X armor, and 5 repulsor tanks, and thus chooses to maintain a force of 200 primaris, (100 of which is the vanguard) and thus only the most promising canidates are selected for Primaris treatments

The codex fluff section covers some of it, but I suspect that the reality is it's just GW adjusting the business strategy to the market reality not be quite inline with what the marketing department though people would accept.


ohh look another unsubstantiated "primaris are failing" line. I think it's just as likely both primaris and old marines are selling well and GW has no incentive to ditch the old marine line if people wanna buy em

That's a rather massive leap from what I said to primaris are failing,
I'm told GW has been compairing Primaris sales against Stormcast sales, which I dont believe was ever a realistic measure.

They seem to have missed that AoS and 40K aren't realy that great benchmarks for each other, it feels like everyone second person who plays AoS has some stormcasts, which didn't exsist untill how long ago, while adding models to an already large line was never going to generate those kinds of sales numbers.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Having the difference between Marines and Primaris Marines be the difference between warriors and soldiers could be interesting, and parallels the difference between Thunder Warriors and Marines. There have been some lore lines that make me think ‘Did GW hype these up only to have them fail in universe?’ I suppose they aren’t reckless enough for that.

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they won't fail but it's clear tyhat Primaris marines aren't flawless

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
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UK

Ice_can wrote:
the reality is it's just GW adjusting the business strategy to the market reality not be quite inline with what the marketing department though people would accept.

I can see why the original SM codex gave people on here the impression that Primaris would be replacing regular marines, but I think with this new codex it's clear that isn't the case for the core units. The marketing strategy seems more consistent now - chapter supplements including rules for named characters being re-released as Primaris models, and also new Primaris units for different battlefield roles. It will be interesting to see if GW also handle those with a supplement now. I suppose the other option is to make a free PDF available (like they did with the Chaos Space Marine codex and Daemonkin datasheets), but somehow that doesn't seem very 'GW' - they generally like you to pay for rules as well as models. Having said that, I can't see even Primaris players being happy to buy the core codex for a third time, so I'm assuming it will be a supplement.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2019/08/23 21:39:05


   
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Reading the copes of marine players reminds me of one of those "mind of a psychopath" type shows.
   
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4th Obelisk On The Right

JSG wrote:
Reading the copes of marine players reminds me of one of those "mind of a psychopath" type shows.

That is an awfully dramatic post.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 BrotherGecko wrote:
JSG wrote:
Reading the copes of marine players reminds me of one of those "mind of a psychopath" type shows.

That is an awfully dramatic post.


Just wait until the manlet range goes last chance to buy in a few years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 11:14:23


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





JSG wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
JSG wrote:
Reading the copes of marine players reminds me of one of those "mind of a psychopath" type shows.

That is an awfully dramatic post.


Just wait until the manlet range goes last chance to buy in a few years.


I smell a troll

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
JSG wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
JSG wrote:
Reading the copes of marine players reminds me of one of those "mind of a psychopath" type shows.

That is an awfully dramatic post.


Just wait until the manlet range goes last chance to buy in a few years.


I smell a troll


No, your right. I'm sure they'll find space in store for the tactical squad next to the RTB01 beakies.
   
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Thats bait

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 12:32:35


 
   
Made in ca
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Halifax

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
So hey, have Space Marines gotten anything to allow them to shoot twice or fight twice, excepting Aggressors?
SM have the same stratagem as before, Honour the Chapter, that lets them fight again.

WHIRLWIND and THUNDERFIRE CANNON can shoot out of LOS twice via Stratagem.

A CHARACTER can shoot when they get killed via Stratagem.


Okay, cool. Thank you.
   
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For successors, if I am say a Dark Angels or Blood Angels successor, do I have to use their particular tactics?

Or can I make them using the regular 'pick 2' successor trait rules?

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