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Lance845 wrote: So I think I figured out why this one is on the bottom of my Disney+ list.
Spoiler:
Everything is resolved WAY too quickly. There is no actual threat or challenge that is the through line of the show. She meets the Clandestines and they are resolved in 2 episodes. She meets the Red Dagger and they are allies within 15 minutes. She is fighting with her mom and then by the end of next episode 3 generations of women are hugging each other with all their past miscommunications wrapped up. Yes, her story was more about her personal journey and discovering who she is and what she can do. Thats great. But usually that kind of journey of self discovery is mirrored and tied to another plot that follows along with them. And this show throws problem after problem at our hero that gets resolved almost instantly. There are like... 5 "threats" that get resolved in 6 episodes. It doesn't give me time to care or settle into the stakes. Even her high school bully is only a bully for a single scene.
I guess she's closer to her hero, Captain Marvel, than expected then. Since that's arguably the same problem that happens in CM's movie too, where she doesn't have any actual threat or challenge by any of the Kree and it's all about her "self-discovery" as a superhero, but really its just a set-up movie for why Nick Fury called for her on his pager at the end of Infinity War (that frankly could have been skipped altogether given how small her contribution to the story in Endgame was besides blowing up a ship).
The movie Captain Marvel very much has a through line through the entire 2 hour movie. The through line is about control. While she is being held back both physically by her implant and mentally by her brain washing removing her ability to recognize her previous relationships and her past. The Skrulls likewise are fighting to take back control of their lives and looking for a place to escape their being hunted to extinction and looking for a new home.
The Kree are consistently the enemies of both and Yon Rogg is the consistent personal threat to Captain Marvel by being the tool the Kree used to try to keep her in line and held back and under their control. The movie is about her regaining her freedom and her self.
Carol Danvers doesn't solve a new problem for it to never be seen again every 15-30 minutes.
I am not super interested in listening to disingenuous interpretations of the Captain Marvel movie. That horse has been well and truly beaten. If you didn't like it thats fine. But making up nonsense about it just shows how little you paid any attention.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora. What if...? juggled a Black Widow (though even that doesn't actually matter since the What if...? reality inherently doesn't matter).
In the shows/movies that just ignore the Multiverse, its largely fine. But then you've got stuff like Spiderman Homecoming, where if the illusion were true, they could have played it straight and gotten a perfectly serviceable and not-all-that different movie out of it.
As far as the Ms Marvel finale goes...
Spoiler:
The complete reversal of her parents just baffles me. It was odd enough that she had more freedom in Pakistan after having already extremely hacked off her mother, and yeah, they eventually reconciled, but... multiple people died, some extremely gruesomely (there were skeletons in that clothier shop by the time her mother showed up). And they dealt with absolutely none of that.
And then instead went for a bit of extreme flip flopping between farce and brutality instead.
Damage Control desperately needed development. They're functionally just crazy people willing to shoot children in the back, in public, on video. Yes, I get the obvious parallels. But, seriously. Bad lady is just bad, and that's both boring and stupid.
The series felt like it wrapped up in episode 5, and someone decided there really needed to be 6 because it was a 'better number.'
Bought the only thing that was interesting was the return of the subtext from episode 1 (Kamala rather panic-crushes at Zoe's introduction), and in this Zoe makes a crack about 'her choice about coming out.' Yes, about being powered, but also... well. Most of the stuff that matters in this series (ie, the family stuff) works just as well as a gay awakening (or in this case bisexual) and coming out as it does for super powers).
Voss wrote: Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora. What if...? juggled a Black Widow (though even that doesn't actually matter since the What if...? reality inherently doesn't matter).
But they haven't done that. The MCU has a problem with not killing people - that much is true - but it's not anything to do with multiverse shenanigans, and I disagree with the notion that multiverse = no stakes.
It's not as if they've gone over and grabbed a multiversal Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap to fill in the for the dead ones in the main universe. The only really returned characters we have are due to time travel, but that doesn't reduce the stakes. If Loki dies in Season 2 of Loki, they're not just going to grab a multiverse Loki and carry on as though nothing has changed, then maybe, but I just don't buy the core argument.
Marvel's fear of killing off characters is a far bigger problem, only exacerbated in Thor: Dumb & Dumber when we see characters die and then find out that they're also kinda not dead anyway.
Voss wrote: In the shows/movies that just ignore the Multiverse, its largely fine. But then you've got stuff like Spiderman Homecoming, where if the illusion were true, they could have played it straight and gotten a perfectly serviceable and not-all-that different movie out of it.
What wasn't serviceable about Homecoming?
Voss wrote: Damage Control desperately needed development. They're functionally just crazy people willing to shoot children in the back, in public, on video. Yes, I get the obvious parallels. But, seriously. Bad lady is just bad, and that's both boring and stupid.
It was better than the end of Wandavision, where the dude just up and opens fire on a pair of pre-teens without warning because the show suddenly needed a villain for all the secondary characters to fight.
At least with Bad Lady she was set up as Bad Lady right from the start.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/15 04:39:52
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora
you mean the Gamora who didn't remember Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians of the galaxy? yeah thats hardly "No concequences"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora
you mean the Gamora who didn't remember Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians of the galaxy? yeah thats hardly "No concequences"
Depends how they do GotG3. If they just slot her in as antagonistic Gamora from GotG1, then... yeah. No real consequences.
HBMC wrote:It's not as if they've gone over and grabbed a multiversal Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap to fill in the for the dead ones in the main universe. The only really returned characters we have are due to time travel, but that doesn't reduce the stakes. If Loki dies in Season 2 of Loki, they're not just going to grab a multiverse Loki and carry on as though nothing has changed, then maybe, but I just don't buy the core argument.
Uh...Loki from Loki the series IS a multiverse Loki replacement and he slotted into the originals 'redemption arc' without ever experiencing it. Loki is the _perfect example_ of the core argument, especially since you don't even seem to remember he is a replacement!
What wasn't serviceable about Homecoming?
Not what I meant.... oh. Also I got the name wrong. I meant the Europe one (Far From Home?) My bad.
What I was saying is that the movie would have been fine with prime universe Mysterio as is, multiverse Mysterio as a hero or multiverse Mysterio as a villian. They message would have been a little different in some of those cases, but the movie as a whole would have worked with any of those scenarios, and real universe or multiverse characters didn't actually matter.
It was better than the end of Wandavision, where the dude just up and opens fire on a pair of pre-teens without warning because the show suddenly needed a villain for all the secondary characters to fight.
At least with Bad Lady she was set up as Bad Lady right from the start
'It was slightly less worse than utterly terrible' is not much of a statement.
There were some many ways that could have been done well- such as actual covert surveillance and appealing to the mosque for help based on the fact that he was involved in the attack on the wedding (being deceptively bad but potentially effective and intelligent). If she has to be Bad and Stupid, she at least needs some motivations for it . Not just ignoring her boss to go with (in episode 6) the worst possible approach to the situation against orders.
The Loki in Loki didn't just slot into the others redemption arc. He spent the vast majority of the show trying to steal power for himself until he recognized the stakes and cared about the one person a loki pre the end of Ragnarok cares about. Himself.
That Loki, without having to stave off a multversal war, who ran into thor would manipulate the gak out of him and try to take power. He learned nothing the other loki did.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 14:48:16
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
The universe that they get the Mind and Time Stone from gets ported to the end of time when the TSA purges it because Loki didn't stay on course. Steve presumably returns the Space Stone last and stays with Peggy from that point on.
It was a fun ride, and nice to see Egyptian stuff.
I enjoyed the "black-outs"/DID and the idea of Avatars. It was also fun to see a Kaiju battle.
That said, I still liked the subtext and larger messaging of Falcon and Winter Soldier better. Granted, I prefer Cap style stories over a lot of other Superhero fare.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
Easy. The Space Stone? One from the Drawer of Spares. Take that back, in a Tesseract, and no-one need be any the wiser.
Whichever world, timeline or reality is missing that one? Was……already missing it, because it’s already at the TSA, beyond their reach. And with that there? Nobody in that reality can do a Thanos, as you need every stone to do so. It being removed doesn’t necessarily damage a timeline either, on the proviso it was always taken at that point. The Avengers had explicitly gone back to get them. If nobody is going back in time in that reality? No timeline damage. Easy peasy.
His behaviour also changes between Thor and The Dark World. We see him in his cell, depressed. Was he depressed because he’s incarcerated? Sure. At first. But….with more seasons of Loki to come, and him knowing his destiny? It’s possible the knowing of his destiny is why he’s depressed. He’s seeing sights foreseen coming true. He knows what happens next. And it’s entirely possible that by that point, he’s learned more, including how Thanos is stopped, his role in that, and potentially even “messing around with time just makes things worse”.
Still not a plot hole. Still not an Alternative Reality Loki
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 16:08:11
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
So you think
Spoiler:
Xavier, Black Bolt, Reed Richards and Captain Britain
Are gone, never to return?
Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
It was a problem with the Arrowverse, it's potentially a problem with the MCU.
It's obviously an important aspect of the comics Universe, and I'm not knocking them for introducing and exploring it. Obviously it's also a fabulous real world tool to recast or reintroduce characters with a justified in world explanation, but for the ongoing good of the MCU it needs to be resolved. Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
So you think
Spoiler:
Xavier, Black Bolt, Reed Richards and Captain Britain
Are gone, never to return?
Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
It was a problem with the Arrowverse, it's potentially a problem with the MCU.
It's obviously an important aspect of the comics Universe, and I'm not knocking them for introducing and exploring it. Obviously it's also a fabulous real world tool to recast or reintroduce characters with a justified in world explanation, but for the ongoing good of the MCU it needs to be resolved. Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
and yes aside from Garmorra (whose very pointedly not the gamora from our timeline and has "forgotten" the guardians of the galaxy) and Loki (who I'll note isn't interacting with the rest of the MCU) the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
Yes. I mean, if they were to bring back RDJ as another Universe's Tony Stark, how long do you think an audience would really care that he wasn't the original?
Recasting is a slightly different argument, of course, but that has everything to do with an audience's relationship with the previous actor and little to do with the fact the same character wears a different face now.
the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
We have a dash of No Way Home and Multiverse Of Madness so far that have explicitly explored the idea. (Is there any in the new Thor? Not seen it.)
It's not like they've really got going.
We've already seen 3 separate Stranges in one movie, so they're clearly not averse to using the concept. Even if they were, the fact that it's now been established that it's possible will undermine the fates of any character from here on out until this arc is resolved.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/15 20:56:13
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
Easy. The Space Stone? One from the Drawer of Spares. Take that back, in a Tesseract, and no-one need be any the wiser.
Whichever world, timeline or reality is missing that one? Was……already missing it, because it’s already at the TSA, beyond their reach. And with that there? Nobody in that reality can do a Thanos, as you need every stone to do so. It being removed doesn’t necessarily damage a timeline either, on the proviso it was always taken at that point. The Avengers had explicitly gone back to get them. If nobody is going back in time in that reality? No timeline damage. Easy peasy.
His behaviour also changes between Thor and The Dark World. We see him in his cell, depressed. Was he depressed because he’s incarcerated? Sure. At first. But….with more seasons of Loki to come, and him knowing his destiny? It’s possible the knowing of his destiny is why he’s depressed. He’s seeing sights foreseen coming true. He knows what happens next. And it’s entirely possible that by that point, he’s learned more, including how Thanos is stopped, his role in that, and potentially even “messing around with time just makes things worse”.
Still not a plot hole. Still not an Alternative Reality Loki
He's from a different reality. That's presented as fact. It has nothing to do with plot holes. They go to a universe NOT THEIR OWN, and accidentally set a Loki loose. And that's the starring Loki now. The original one is still dead.
As to the other stuff..
Azreal13 wrote: It's not like they've really got going.
yeah, this. We're still wrapping up IW post snap stuff. The alternate reality crap is just kicking off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 20:58:05
The really confusing part is time travel has some sort of barrier of short and long. Did Strange create hundreds of multiverse dimensions when he bargained with Dormammu? Is the TVA creating more work for themselves with their rewind devices?
How far back need one go to create a new universe? Was looking at the possible futures, and deciding on the actions to render the one with the desired outcome any different than Wanda going after her kids? Did Strange trade the MCU by letting Thanos beat the avengers in 999 others?
And if Time travel is inherently sending you into other universes.... does America Chavez have the ability to time travel as well?
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Time travel as I understand it doesn’t go to a different universe, it creates a new one. When you travel to the past, it’s your own universe’s past, but once you arrive, you’re creating a new one where you now exist there when you didn’t before. The Avengers show up, grab a stone, leave. TVA comes in after them, sets off one of their little devices, and resets/erases that new branch. You’ll note in Avengers they only freely traveled backwards in time. When they traveled forward and returned to their present it was to their set machine anchor point. Even Thanos got to their future thru that machine. Strange didn’t travel to the future with his stone, he simply observed possible futures. Infinity Stones very nature sort of warps physics so they probably get to break the rules anyways. The thing that really breaks from this is Old Cap, whose existence makes no sense given the movie’s own rules of time travel. So yeah, there’s no returning Loki to where he left, they explicitly reset that branch in the first episode. They have no place to return him to.
Except….does any of the TVA stuff work as we’re told?
We know they don’t disintegrate people, but punt them elsewhere. If the effect of that is a lie? What do the erasure devices actually do actually in reality actually?
Right now, we genuinely do not know for certain,
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
It moved the alternate branch to the void at the end of the world where the giant smoke monster eats it. They explicitly talk about it happening post revelation.
Not those ones, no. Those ones are dead, and served their purpose (another step in teaching Strange that there is more than one way to handle a situation and that it doesn't always have to be him that does it).
Azreal13 wrote: Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
I completely disagree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/16 01:47:03
Not those ones, no. Those ones are dead, and served their purpose (another step in teaching Strange that there is more than one way to handle a situation and that it doesn't always have to be him that does it).
Mind you, he already learned that lesson in Endgame, when he turned everything over to Stark and resigned himself to getting snapped out of existence. 'Course, between this and his girlfriend 'issues,' MoM was about spoonfeeding him basic life lessons that he should have picked up by his mid-20s. But hey, he's a 'genius.'
But really, if anything, the 'Illuminati' taught him they were useless obstacles (obstacles for him, useless against Wanda) and he DID need to do things himself.
Voss wrote: Mind you, he already learned that lesson in Endgame, when he turned everything over to Stark and resigned himself to getting snapped out of existence.
No, he was still on his "one way" track then. He found the one way they'd win, and did everything to ensure that it happened. When ever one came back he made sure to remind Stark that there was only one way of doing things, keeping him in the dark at first ("If I tell you, then it won't happen") and then confirming it when the time did come.
In MoM he learnt that he doesn't have to do it that way, as he let America solve the conflict at the end, rather than himself. The Illuminati were hypocrites, as they saw only one way to deal with the issue and all died as a result. That was their purpose in the film.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/18 03:37:40
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
Yes. I mean, if they were to bring back RDJ as another Universe's Tony Stark, how long do you think an audience would really care that he wasn't the original?
Recasting is a slightly different argument, of course, but that has everything to do with an audience's relationship with the previous actor and little to do with the fact the same character wears a different face now.
the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
We have a dash of No Way Home and Multiverse Of Madness so far that have explicitly explored the idea. (Is there any in the new Thor? Not seen it.)
It's not like they've really got going.
We've already seen 3 separate Stranges in one movie, so they're clearly not averse to using the concept. Even if they were, the fact that it's now been established that it's possible will undermine the fates of any character from here on out until this arc is resolved.
... yes I suppose it's possiable they could use the multi verse to cheaply remove the concequences of character death etc..
but we've not seen them doing it!
Look maybe you should judge based on what we see rather then worst case behavior you think we could hypotheticly see?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/18 09:13:45
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
