Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**rhinoceraids**

For sure! For me I like them. But you're right. 190pts is a lot.

Though they one shotted a necron overlord netting me 1st blood and warlord on more than just one game.

190 pts could do a lot else, Thats for sure. Something to mull over.

**vipoid**

scommy wrote:
With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?

Table the opponent?

If that's not possible, just play the game and have a laugh. Perhaps discuss with your opponent why the lives of guardsmen are suddenly being valued to highly. At the end, nod politely when your opponent says that he won and don't bother pointing out that his Space Marines have lost about half their gene seed or that his Eldar have lost yet more of their dwindling race, while you've only lost some of the most expendable troops in the universe.

All according to plan.

**MinscS2**

I've played 2 KP-games with my IG in 8th, and won both.

Granted, I "only" had about ~25 KP, but still.
It's amazing how easy it is to win if you table your opponent.

**RogueApiary**

scommy wrote:
With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?

Table them. Failing that, see if they'd be ok with PL value = KP. You'll still likely have more potential KP on the board, but it'll be a lot closer and it makes things like Knights actually meaningful to kill.

**pismakron**

Or better yet: Don't play killpoints. Killpoints suck.

**vipoid**

pismakron wrote:
Or better yet: Don't play killpoints. Killpoints suck.

Yeah, I never liked them. Back in 7th they were basically an auto-lose for my DE, and in spite of being a 1/6 chance we seemed to end up playing them about 9 times out of 10.

**rhinoceraids**

The ITC style of using power points is pretty reasonable.

Other than that yes. Table your opponent.

**CplPunishment**

RogueApiary wrote:
scommy wrote:
With no more combined squads, how can foot guard avoid getting rekt in kill point games?

Table them. Failing that, see if they'd be ok with PL value = KP. You'll still likely have more potential KP on the board, but it'll be a lot closer and it makes things like Knights actually meaningful to kill.

This should be a rule.

**CaptainO**

Has anyone tried running 3 x 10 ratlings? 210 points and they'd average 5 mortal wounds on characters per turn (no matter the characters toughness) with 2/3 more wounds on a MEQ (even more on a GEQ ) . I don't know Bobby Gs stats currently but that firepower would certainly kill any of our characters in a turn. There is a lot of talk of basing a list around Harker or Straken. Hell if someone took out my commissar then my conscripts are going to suffer a lot more wounds after a bit of close combat.

I get that due to their terrible Ld there is a good chance they're going to get wiped, especially if (as AM tend to ) go second. Alternatively just embrace it and take 6 x 5 ratlings and force the en to waste an entire turn shooting. (4+ save if they are in cover)

**RogueApiary**

CaptainO wrote:
Has anyone tried running 3 x 10 ratlings? 210 points and they'd average 5 mortal wounds on characters per turn (no matter the characters toughness) with 2/3 more wounds on a MEQ (even more on a GEQ ) . I don't know Bobby Gs stats currently but that firepower would certainly kill any of our characters in a turn. There is a lot of talk of basing a list around Harker or Straken. Hell if someone took out my commissar then my conscripts are going to suffer a lot more wounds after a bit of close combat.

I get that due to their terrible Ld there is a good chance they're going to get wiped, especially if (as AM tend to ) go second. Alternatively just embrace it and take 6 x 5 ratlings and force the en to waste an entire turn shooting. (4+ save if they are in cover)

I've really soured on Ratlings lately. My opponents have been singling them out with their 'loose change' firepower and utterly wrecking them. A 4+ save that is likely a 5+ or worse after AP doesn't do much when almost every gun in the game wounds them on 2's. The worst are Imperial Fists Intercessors. Hit on 3's, wound on 2's, no save. My only recourse is to have them out of LOS and move-shoot-move with them. But at that point, they're hitting on 4's.

**CaptainO**

Ya I thought that might be the case. With their low toughness and Ld they have the staying power of an absent father.

If you managed to have a low drop count army (shadow sword packed with dudes or lots of deep strike scions) then the 3 x 10 might actually get the first turn. The ability to take out a key character is really appealing .Taking out an ork weirdboy(z/s) would definitely cause havoc with greenskins and I'm sure the nids have something similar (characters with less than 10 wounds that buff a large number of units)

With "find the best spot" do ratlings count towards "who finished putting down the last unit first"?

**rhinoceraids**

Ratlings are easily killed. And disappointing.

I tried bringing them. They always die first. Unless I want to hide them far far away and out of range. But at that point.....why even bring them.

Now I've been using 2x vindicares.

**necron99**

tabling in a kill point game isn't always going to win you the game. The book mission, yes, NOVA and other tournaments where you can accumulate points it won't. But if you can manage to accumulate more than your opponent and do a final charge into his lines and die a glorious death that might work.

**More Dakka**

As noted, don't play KPs, treat them as power level for points calculation.

Also, Big Guns is an almost auto-loss for most reasonable and competitive IG builds

**CakesPicasso**

I have a recast Vulture on the way and will potentially be buying a second from Forge World this week and didn't see a lot of discussion on them, is anyone modeling/playing with them that could answer a few questions?

1. Do any of their weapon options compete favorably with the TL Punisher? At least one of them will be equipped with it but kitting one out as anti-armor would shore up a lot of holes in my lists.

2. People who have built them, it looks like it ships with Hellstrike missiles and multiple rocket pods and nothing else. I see that Punishers are sold separately, but what are you using to represent twin autocannon/lascannon/multi-laser? Twin las seemed like a good replacement if not going with Punishers.

3. What are reasonable alternatives/proxies or conversions people are using to represent Vultures, and would they look good alongside 1-2 regular Vultures?

**More Dakka**

I don't think you'll get more bang for your buck than the dual punishers. 43 S5 shots with strafing run sub 150pts is hard to top. The other weapon options can easily be fitted into the rest of your army (Hydras, LR Annihilator tanks)

**Jkbulldogg**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

So would you suggest using Scions with plasma weapons in exchange of guardsman? Or would you say they are better served reinforcing and supporting standard infantry guardsmen?

**KestrelM1**

CakesPicasso wrote:

1. Do any of their weapon options compete favorably with the TL Punisher? At least one of them will be equipped with it but kitting one out as anti-armor would shore up a lot of holes in my lists.

Not at the price. I think the next-best option is probably twin lascannon and either 2 hellstrikes or 6 hunter-killer missiles, depending on whether you want to alpha or sustain. That or just fielding the Vendetta. Those gun options are ~40 points more than the twin punishers, and the Vendetta is 70 more, so it's pretty hard to make a case for them.

I used leftover HWT Lascannons to convert my Valkyries into Vendettas way back in 5th, I'm sure you could do the same for yours. Just use a bit of sprue as a rail, and glue the weapons to either side. Then attach to the hull, preferably with magnets.

**More Dakka**

Vendettas are way overpriced without any Heavy Weapon rules mitigation. You're most things on 5's and you're hitting supersonic flyers on 6's

**KestrelM1**

More Dakka wrote:
Vendettas are way overpriced without any Heavy Weapon rules mitigation. You're most things on 5's and you're hitting supersonic flyers on 6's

You can always just hover, and treat Supersonic like a short "bonus" before your first turn. I don't disagree that they're overpiced, though, and if they're just going to be static shooting you should probably just take Lascannon HWT instead. Or, you know, a super-heavy, since just two of them is already pushing Shadowsword-level cost.

**More Dakka**

But at that point you're better off just taking 2x LR Annihilators, which at least have some staying power and can move a considerable distance with orders.

**Unit1126PLL**

BY THE WAY EVERYONE,

on the topic of annihilators/anti tank, what does everyone think of the Valdor. I have two, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that they're better at killing infantry than a Leman Russ battle tank is.

Are valdors... actually good now?

**Aenarian**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
BY THE WAY EVERYONE,

on the topic of annihilators/anti tank, what does everyone think of the Valdor. I have two, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that they're better at killing infantry than a Leman Russ battle tank is.

Are valdors... actually good now?

Well, a Valdor is a 374 pts LoW choice... Two Leman Russes are better against infantry and cheaper.

Is it worth taking? It's basically a poor man's Shadowsword. Very high strength, a tad more shots but less damage along with a nice bonus -hit if the enemy is wounded. It'll kill a vehicle every other turn or so instead of one more or less every turn. I think a Shadowsword is a better choice but the Valdor can be usable, although it requires some good targets.

**Razerous**

Roughly when is the new codex being released?

**MaxT**

Razerous wrote:
Roughly when is the new codex being released?

Unknown, but likely this side of Christmas

**rhinoceraids**

People talk up a big game with the shadowsword. Dont forget youre getting 1-6 shots. And on top of that youre hitting on 4's. If you didnt move.

Still needing 2's to wound. and sure its 2d6. But youre needing very few dice to roll average. And when they don't it hurts big.

Roll more dice.

**Colonel Cross**

Probably better off getting a bunch of Laser Rapier Destroyers!

**zedsdead**

Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.

**KestrelM1**

Er... why? They both have the Astra Militarum keyword.

**Zuri Prime**

zedsdead wrote:
Looks like with the upcoming "Chapter Approved " mission book. Mixing Astra Militarium and Scions will lose you Objective secured on your troops.

Fortunately 'Militarum Tempestus' is the regiment, not faction so we're not affected by it.

Also, is running a Vulture pretty cheesy? Thinking about converting a Valkyrie to one but I don't want to be 'That Guy'.