Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

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**Dynas**

So i play nids mainly, have SM, a bunch of old stuff from 5th, so no primaris or anything.

Is it viable to run a SM list without primaris and still be compettitve?

I was thinking of Sternguard, dev, Tac squads, Razorbacks, maybe some stormtalons (here they suck now), snipers, and a few elite/lt/capts.
I did cave and buy Guilliman, but i think i just want him for display or Apoc games.

Also, i have Pedro, now we can blend chapters, so I was thinking of repainting him as a LT or captain with POwerfist and storm bolter model. Thoughts on that?

**GangstaMuffin24**

Dynas wrote:
So i play nids mainly, have SM, a bunch of old stuff from 5th, so no primaris or anything.

Is it viable to run a SM list without primaris and still be compettitve?

I was thinking of Sternguard, dev, Tac squads, Razorbacks, maybe some stormtalons (here they suck now), snipers, and a few elite/lt/capts.
I did cave and buy Guilliman, but i think i just want him for display or Apoc games.

Also, i have Pedro, now we can blend chapters, so I was thinking of repainting him as a LT or captain with POwerfist and storm bolter model. Thoughts on that?

Yes, most people are of the mind that the Primaris stuff is not that great, except maybe Hellblasters.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I don't think Intercessors are too bad, especially at the new price point.

**ronjamin1022**

Was hoping this thread could help someone just starting with Space Marines. I'm not sure on a chapter yet (torn between Ultramarines and Salamanders), but I have the Start Collecting Box as a jumping off point. I've reached a roadblock in regards to how I'm going to equip the units in this box for optimal performance, at least starting out in smaller games.

So far, I've put together 6 Tactical Space Marines, with 4 more waiting in the wings. From what I've read around various forums, it seems like two 5-man tactical squads is the way to go. With that in mind, 2 of my remaining will be Sergeants and the other 2 will be heavy/special weapons. Assuming I only use the weapons available to me in the Tactical Space Marine part of my box, what is the best way to arm these figures. I was thinking one squad with a combi-plasma/plasma cannon, and the other with a standard Sergeant/missile launcher, but I wanted to see if there were better options.

With the Captain in Terminator Armor, what is the best weapon set-up for him?

Finally, with the Venerable Dreadnought, again, what is the best weapon set-up?

Thanks! I'm really excited to be back into this game after so many years.

**Stavkat**

I am by no means an expert, but for the Ven Dread, the twin las and missile option is quite solid

**casvalremdeikun**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't think Intercessors are too bad, especially at the new price point.

They have better shooting and are more survivable than Tacticals. There are certainly worse things in the Troops slot for Space Marines.

**Perth**

For building the SC, I'd recommend Combi-plas, Plasmagun, Missile Launcher.

I'm not really sure what options the Termi captain has in the box, but a combi-plas and Thunder Hammer would be useful and versitile. Or Storm Bolter and power sword to be cheap.

The Venerable kit doesn't come with any left arm guns, and the right arm guns just slide in without glue, so try them all. I'd build your fist with a storm bolter and start with a Lascannon.

**casvalremdeikun**

What is the opinion on the Plasma Pistol on Hellblaster Sergeants? Waste of points?

**Slayer-Fan123**

It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.

**casvalremdeikun**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.

Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.

**Slayer-Fan123**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.
Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.

If you like the pose, make it another Plasma Gun for the sheer sake of coolness. Since there's no option for that, it falls under Rule Of Cool and you'll get a pass.

Otherwise it's only 7 points right?

**casvalremdeikun**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It won't help them get out of melee quicker. Definitely a waste.
Damnit. The pose looks so good. I was hoping I was missing something. I suppose I will just put the Bolt Pistol in that hand. Need a way to distinguish the base Marines from the Sergeant. Crimson Fists don't do different colored helmets.

If you like the pose, make it another Plasma Gun for the sheer sake of coolness. Since there's no option for that, it falls under Rule Of Cool and you'll get a pass.

Otherwise it's only 7 points right?

Naw, I just found that there is a Bolt Pistol arm too. So I will just do that instead. Still looks pretty awesome and helps distinguish my Sergeant.

So the verdict on Hellblasters is still that the Heavy version is garbage, correct?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yep. Heavy is still terrible.

**Vulkan_I'tres**

Hey there, longtime lurker here just enjoying the thread. I have about 3 companies of the Salamanders and thought we could talk about CT specific combinations for a bit.

Re-rolls on re-rolls: I couldn't be more pleased with how the Salamanders CT functions and encourages the fluff of lots of specialist gear, fewer bodies, and small squads. Something that really caught my eye is the minimum company veteran squad size of 2. I've run a 2k of four vanguard detachments in razors with biker techmarines (index...grr). Mildly salty that a servo arm and a PF are the same price when theservo is limited to a single attack at lower AP.

Really wish I could find a place for Grav and with the wound re-roll it's tempting but grav seems to have been priced out versus plasma.

Picked up a great little tactic here of hiding a PC or Grav in a dev squad to be the sole beneficiary of the ammo baby and servo. +1 to hit means not chance of overheat on a PC.

I was wondering if anyone has experience with the rhino primaris? The idea of carting around multi-melts devs with no to hit penalty is appealing.

Even as a Salamanders player I feel flamers aren't working as intended. Nine points is a bit steep for something that sprinkles a few str 4 hits when I could have four and a half storm bolters.
I suppose the real complaint here is that the traditional anti-horde platforms underperform (flamers, TFC, whirlwind, etc) while aggressors, inceptors and scout bikes light things up for cheaper/at better range/with power fists.

Also wondering what people take and on who for relics. Having a +1 T warlord with the Salamander's mantle is great on a Gravis or bike model, but I wonder if in practice the shield eternal is better. Usually only run the standard and teeth beyond that. Salamanders CT make them a bit less dependent on captains for the re-rolls so I'm trying to build up good tactics for LT's, Tech marines, and librarians.

Thoughts on everything?

**tpogs**

Eh, I think you're thinking about the Salamander CT the wrong way.

You want low rate of fire high strength weapons like Lascannons and maybe even Meltas (even if they're kind of gakky at the moment) for the salamander CT to shine. The rerolls just don't do as much for plasma or grav.

**Vulkan_I'tres**

tpogs wrote:
Eh, I think you're thinking about the Salamander CT the wrong way.

You want low rate of fire high strength weapons like Lascannons and maybe even Meltas (even if they're kind of gakky at the moment) for the salamander CT to shine. The rerolls just don't do as much for plasma or grav.

Oh I agree! I do run things this way, but I would contend that plasma is a very good use of the CT because it allows you to overcharge relatively safe while away from a captain.

While overcharging in this way, I've found my vet pairs output damage close to melta while remaining flexible to elite infantry. The math is something like 4.78 dmg vs 5.5 dmg both at 12" the melta wins out at 6" but the melta pairs also cost more.

Also, rules question here. Does Vulkan let me re-roll number of hits for flamers? I've gone back and forth because because of the auto-hit, the number of shots is the to-hut roll for flamers. If this isn't the case, then I'm finding it really hard to leverage vulkan as a strategem, the CT, and a lieutenant can nearly do his job for him.

**Mandragola**

No, the number of hits a flamer gets isn't a roll to hit I'm afraid. You only get the reroll to wound with them.

Salamanders CT seems better with old marines than Primaris, to me. It benefits squads with one or two special weapons far more than units like hellblasters. That's what you want the Rhino Primaris for... maybe. Or you could just buy more hellblasters.

It might be that Salamanders flamestorm aggressors are worth running. I'm not too sure though if honest. It's such a big investment, effectively just for some not-very-flexible dakka. Getting them into position probably requires a repulsor too.

Dreadnoughts seem to be the really fun option though for salamanders. Contemptors with meltas are way better for them than for anyone else. In combat you'll tend to miss with an attack and have another one or two fail to wound, so the CT very significantly improves their killing power. I haven't done the maths on whether it benefits normal dreadnoughts or contemptors more - because I don't play Salamanders and can't be bothered.

I also like the idea of the multiple units of 2 company veterans. With 4 shots you'll be unlikely to ge two 1s. You get to put 6 plasma guns in a razorback if you want. Pretty cool all round, I think.

**ultimentra**

Is anyone else having trouble justifying adding an assault element to their army now that BA is for all intents and purposes, out in terms of rules and such? I'm putting together a BT list, and I have plenty of Dakka, Plasma, Melta, and I'm running a double battalion so I have 4 HQs and six troops. 15 scouts, 10 Crusaders, 5 Intercessors. I have some transports, hell blasters, devastators (bait essentially), plasma inceptors (my new favorite unit), and I'm running Helbrecht, Emps Champ, LT, and a Jump captain.

I have some points left that I can shuffle around, but I'm having trouble with actually going ahead with taking any kind of dedicated assault element in my army. If I had access to BA units, I would take death company and call it a day. They are the perfect Marine assault unit. 2 attacks! 2! That's the most we ever get! Sergeants for our best assault units get 3, but there's no way to increase that.

Honor the Chapter is not only expensive, but by the time I'm using it, the unit I want to use it on is depleted because of the replying blows from the opponent's unit.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'd say Black Templars are better off because the rerolls for charges is just so clutch.

**Martel732**

Only if you are relying on long range assaults.

**ultimentra**

Yes we can get in there more reliably, but the problem is actually doing something once we get there. I just don't think 2 attacks is enough on Company Vets or Vanguard, and spamming chainsword attacks isn't that great when I get strength 4 AP nothing elsewhere in spades.

Ugh.

If only Honor Guard were worth taking. And they're again another 2 wound highly elite expensive unit. I just don't know what the solution is.

**Desubot**

Well if its just chain swords dont VV get 3 attacks each?

i think VV without cool weapons though is kinda doing them a disservice though.

**ultimentra**

Exactly, and its not like I'm hurting for more strength 4 AP nothing attacks with this list. I just feel like VV lack punch to make a worthwhile dent in anything. Really, they're best used attacking things that are toughness 3, 4+ saves. They only have 2 attacks each, and when you add in close combat weapons and jump packs they get damned pricey for something that has two attacks on a marine profile.

If I had a decent way to get them another attack I would be okay with it. I have a bunch of really nice VV models, but I hardly ever use them because of the number times where I've charged in with anywhere from 5-7 of them, and didn't do a whole lot. Power fist sarge, 2-4 power swords, 2 power axes. Its just not enough damage to justify the cost.

**Slayer-Fan123**

ultimentra wrote:
Yes we can get in there more reliably, but the problem is actually doing something once we get there. I just don't think 2 attacks is enough on Company Vets or Vanguard, and spamming chainsword attacks isn't that great when I get strength 4 AP nothing elsewhere in spades.

Ugh.

If only Honor Guard were worth taking. And they're again another 2 wound highly elite expensive unit. I just don't know what the solution is.

It's also annoying they only get two dudes per squad.

**Desubot**

But not much in the game has a 2 attack profile outside of the veteran level stuff.

VV IS a point sink but that doesnt mean they cant pull weight or help remove something that is more points than it.

obvious exceptions to be expected.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Desubot wrote:
But not much in the game has a 2 attack profile outside of the veteran level stuff.

VV IS a point sink but that doesnt mean they cant pull weight or help remove something that is more points than it.

obvious exceptions to be expected.

How are Vanguard a point sink?

**Desubot**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Desubot wrote:
But not much in the game has a 2 attack profile outside of the veteran level stuff.

VV IS a point sink but that doesnt mean they cant pull weight or help remove something that is more points than it.

obvious exceptions to be expected.

How are Vanguard a point sink?

Point sink as in you can sink quite a lot of points into them with weapons. not that they are bad because of it. probably wrong terminology.

**Slayer-Fan123**

OH I see what you mean.

Yeah, Vanguard are only as expensive as you make them to be.

**Traceoftoxin**

I find 3x2 company vets with chainsword and storm bolter to be fantastic. Have used them to take down all sorts of stuff. You can scoff at "S4 ap nothing", but one of the best ways to make someone die is to make them roll dice. Ask any ork player.

Problem is for tournaments will kill X unit objectives, you give up lots of points. So, I don't reccomend investing in more than maybe one razorback of them as a counter assault unit. Where having the almost guaranteed 5-7" charge as a BT is very useful. There's nothing more crippling than failing a short range charge at a crucial point in the game, with how much a charge can dictate following movement, shooting and assault phases.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
I find 3x2 company vets with chainsword and storm bolter to be fantastic. Have used them to take down all sorts of stuff. You can scoff at "S4 ap nothing", but one of the best ways to make someone die is to make them roll dice. Ask any ork player.

Problem is for tournaments will kill X unit objectives, you give up lots of points. So, I don't reccomend investing in more than maybe one razorback of them as a counter assault unit. Where having the almost guaranteed 5-7" charge as a BT is very useful. There's nothing more crippling than failing a short range charge at a crucial point in the game, with how much a charge can dictate following movement, shooting and assault phases.

That's why Vanguard simply work. 18 points for a 12" 4 attack model ain't too bad. Yeah it's only 2 attacks if you got a Power Weapon but oh well. Hidden Power Fist is always an option, though less effective than it used to be.