Our Codex is da biggest an da best! - Orks 10th Edition Tactics

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**Forceride**

I have seen some of the reports, the mobility and alpha potential is real. But so is the glass bodies and cost. The scary stuff will be expensive, but will fold to something as simple as bolt fire. I know their showcasing but all reports i saw were losses for Eldar.

This does not mean squat though. Let's be patient and see point costs.

Amazing stompa report btw.

**gungo**

Jidmah wrote:
Auto-takes for any faction tend to get a nerf under the new balancing approach. If something pops up in every list irrespective of that list's strategy, that unit is overperforming.

In my games, it's completely obvious that tankbustas are the game changer that makes me steamroll my enemies - the taktiks, the Badrukk enhancement and the stratagems are nice, but none of that would matter if I had to work with lootas or mek guns instead of tankbustas.

I agree it’s getting a points increase but the main reason tankbustas are in every list is because they are the only unit with decent AP outside dual saw meganobs. Our codex lacks AP -3 it was our biggest drawback and it’s partly why tankbustas exploded… I mean the mortal wounds also help the cause as well but ya they need to cost 140pts like breaks boys.

**Afrodactyl**

140 points would be an appropriate points adjustment IMO.

As Gungo said, if you nerf them too hard then people just go back to spamming Nobz and MANz and then people moan about that. And then if that gets nerfed I guess it goes to Snagga and Flash Git spam for AT.

**Grimskul**

Afrodactyl wrote:
140 points would be an appropriate points adjustment IMO.

As Gungo said, if you nerf them too hard then people just go back to spamming Nobz and MANz and then people moan about that. And then if that gets nerfed I guess it goes to Snagga and Flash Git spam for AT.

Yeah, it becomes cyclical and it's kinda hard to complain about it when we have minimal options for ranged anti-tank. We're not like marines, tau or guard where they have a huge selection of ranged attack profiles.

**Jidmah**

If only we had five ranged units with unique guns on fast moving platforms... then a dataslate could easily update those to be worth a damn.

**Grimskul**

Jidmah wrote:
If only we had five ranged units with unique guns on fast moving platforms... then a dataslate could easily update those to be worth a damn.

Don't remind me haha, we're paying for the supposed sins of 8th and 9th for SpeedWAAAGH! buggies actually being relevant firing platforms. I feel we'll have to wait till 11th ed to see if they get proper dataslates that can do a damn lol.

Make Buggies Great Again! (ideally with a Wazdakka model being our next SC release alongside Badrukk and Zagstruk...)

**Tomsug**

Make Buggies Great Again! Yesss!

**Tomsug**

Anyway - CI with some succesfull warbosses:

Rose City Rampage - Jonathan Sebert 1st place with the old school coassic War Horde … with some tankbustas and BreakaBoyz of course

Spoiler:

The same event - Lukas Troller - the name we already knew - 3rd with the Tactical with tons of flashgitz, tankbustas and breakaboyz in 5 trukks. Dakka dakka dakka!

Spoiler:

Winchester 40K GT – January 2025 - another known warboss Joshua Cowlard was 3rd with War Hord also with 5 trukks. Gosh I need more trukks…

Spoiler:

**Forceride**

Yeah i am also considering more trucks.. so far even with defensive buffs i am finding difficulty playing bustas into gunline heavy armies.

Maybe it's me.

I also agree with buggies needing a glow up it's sad.

**gungo**

Buggies need complete profile change to weapons to be viable. Points reductions won’t help. The kult of speed detachment rule isn’t even bad.. just buggies have no threat in a large unit with movement restrictions.

Da big hunt needs squig riders to have a slight points reduction… and really at least a strat to target a second unit with the detachment rule.

I think dreadmob is detachment much closer to being a competitively viable army. Tankbustas w shok atk bigmek or flashgitz with kaptain big Mek make the detachment viable… I just would like to see killakans special ability not be useless garbage and instead be +1 atk for hazardous and maybe make gork/Morkanaut (and stompa) to be effected by most of the detachment rules.

**Jidmah**

You can't have a kaptin in dread mob unless you are playing crusade.

Honestly, dreadmob kanz don't really have an issue with damage output, they have an issue with staying alive. Bump them to 7 wounds like scout sentinels and they will start to stick around long enough to bring those guns to bear.

Buggies are a whole different set of issues. Yes, the guns are terrible, but those buggies also die way too fast. At the very least they need more wounds and toughness, or the ability to join warbikers. Even the best gun doesn't help when a buggy just implodes to anything that remotely looks like a multi-melta.

**Grimskul**

Jidmah wrote:
You can't have a kaptin in dread mob unless you are playing crusade.

Honestly, dreadmob kanz don't really have an issue with damage output, they have an issue with staying alive. Bump them to 7 wounds like scout sentinels and they will start to stick around long enough to bring those guns to bear.

Buggies are a whole different set of issues. Yes, the guns are terrible, but those buggies also die way too fast. At the very least they need more wounds and toughness, or the ability to join warbikers. Even the best gun doesn't help when a buggy just implodes to anything that remotely looks like a multi-melta.

Letting them join warbikers is an interesting concept, it makes me think of how the heavy weapon platforms can now join guardian defenders, it would make them our bigger, scarier equivalent of wolfquads in jackal atlan squads and give them ablative wounds and a different way of interacting with our army, particularly stratagems and making it more efficient for them. Would be cool if they did this.

Outside of that, yeah, they basically need a complete datasheet overhaul for each one, the fact that they have less utility than trukks who are cheaper and more relevant across several lists showcases how badly designed they are.

**Jidmah**

Exactly my thoughts. Buggies are inferior to a shooty unit riding a trukk in every way, when it should be the other way around.

**Forceride**

I am in complete agreement, i would go as far as say that anything done to buggies would be great what ever it is.

But we have to deal with the probability that this might only happen on next edition.

**Grimskul**

Forceride wrote:
I am in complete agreement, i would go as far as say that anything done to buggies would be great what ever it is.

But we have to deal with the probability that this might only happen on next edition.

I think the fact that each datasheet for the buggies needs a complete overhaul means that it won't be touched on meaningfully in the balance dataslates. Usually GW might tweak and make an errata for an ability here and there, touch up the stats slightly like they did for DW Knights and Inner Circle Companions, but not for how much effort they would need to do for all the buggies in their entirety. So yeah, definitely a next edition thing. We might get a band-aid boost from a detachment or overall buggy rule, but it won't be nuanced the way we want it to be.

**Tomsug**

Agree. There is no chance to be competitive for Buggies any time soon.

Except the mentioned (uterly useless unfixeable datasheets + not so interesting and buggies problems solving detach rules) there are few other problems I see:

1. No characters. Warboss / Big Mek on Warbike in Legends and just the Wartrike remains. You cannot build an army around it.

2. Nob bikers or their equivalent are missing = not enough “troop” options.

3. Recent history of long and succesful competitive Speedwaagh epoche spanning over couple of rule books. Buggies was a think over most of the 9th. Due the business reasons and due the “make the game interesting” reasons, I seriously doubt about any chance for buggies in next 2 years.

As I said already couple of times, I see some patterns that repeats. Infantry and transports works now. My guess is the rise on Snagga units during 2025 Killrigs+Riders. They was not a big stars yet and they are a new models.

After that comes either some kind of a new army (tanks and grots?) or the refresh of walkers incl some new Meks and maybe some Mega Dread refurbish. And maybe after that come the refresh of the buggies.

However, we' ve got so much new models in last few years, I 'm seriously surprised we are getting more and more again and again. I don' t think other armies have so much attention.

**Grimskul**

Tomsug wrote:
Agree. There is no chance to be competitive for Buggies any time soon.

Except the mentioned (uterly useless unfixeable datasheets + not so interesting and buggies problems solving detach rules) there are few other problems I see:

1. No characters. Warboss / Big Mek on Warbike in Legends and just the Wartrike remains. You cannot build an army around it.

2. Nob bikers or their equivalent are missing = not enough “troop” options.

3. Recent history of long and succesful competitive Speedwaagh epoche spanning over couple of rule books. Buggies was a think over most of the 9th. Due the business reasons and due the “make the game interesting” reasons, I seriously doubt about any chance for buggies in next 2 years.

As I said already couple of times, I see some patterns that repeats. Infantry and transports works now. My guess is the rise on Snagga units during 2025 Killrigs+Riders. They was not a big stars yet and they are a new models.

After that comes either some kind of a new army (tanks and grots?) or the refresh of walkers incl some new Meks and maybe some Mega Dread refurbish. And maybe after that come the refresh of the buggies.

However, we' ve got so much new models in last few years, I 'm seriously surprised we are getting more and more again and again. I don' t think other armies have so much attention.

Yeah, the support elements just aren't there. The Wartrike has basically no buffs or synergy with buggies or bikes to be honest, since the +1 to hit is basically irrelevant since warbikerz are not a CC unit and are basically just action monkeys at best.

Losing the regular Big Mek with KFF that actually works on vehicles as an aura (especially the Big Mek on Warbike variant from 8th ed) I think is the biggest blow, since Big Meks basically are useless (in contrast to their previously central role) for buggies, they have no abilities that either affect them since they can't join them as units, or they're far too slow to keep up. We definitely need a mobile Mek unit to keep up with buggies/bikerz that allows them to be relevant, or a revision in general to the Big Mek unit baseline rules so there's a reason to consider taking them in transports to follow along with the buggies and bikes.

Missed opportunity to be honest to have Big Mek riding a souped up Deffkopta, could be cool for it to be a lone Op near vehicles or allow them to join deffkoptas as a leader.

**Tomsug**

Actuly it is not a missed opportunidy Imho. It is a nice plan that is maybe in process already and comes to the market in few years. You cannot have everything. If you have everything, nothing new can come.

**Forceride**

I am sorry Tomsug, but we have to agree we disagree. I am not entirely sure they have the acumen to make a decision so long into the future.

Now i can be wrong but i have no factual proof of GW being capable of that amount of 3d chess and forward thinking... On the contrary, it has shown that is absolute reactionary and difficult to change course.

Also it's true GW is egregious when it comes to business decisions and missing the entire forest, maybe country for the tree's..

We have seen this repeatedly.

I will reserve my judgment as to when we have the opportunity to see what they do with them.

And don't take the wrong from me, it's just i haven't seen till today evidence of a clear direction on GW part in just about everything.

**Jidmah**

Well, GW has become quite predicable as of late, since around the time Stu Black has started taking the lead for 40k design.

The primary goal for GW is clearly reducing production costs. Killing FW, demising finecast, reducing metal to pre-orders and replacing ancient sets wie newer ones (usually with less sprues) all work towards that goal.

The second type of release is "printing money" releases. They are redoing popular models, pick up nostalgic ideas from old editions and epic, fill obvious holes in armies' arsenals and release kill team boxes to reduce risk of having a new set collect dust on the shelves.

New releases without any consideration for their business value have become quite rare and most of them are just single character releases. If something from your wish list doesn't fall into either of the above categories, it is quite unlikely to become real. I would assign the best chances for a non-character plastic kit to grot tanks/grot mega tank, but absolutely with new weapon options that the resin ones don't have.

As for balancing, there is no conspiracy to be found.
GW clamps down hard on overperforming units, regardless of the army's win percentage. If one unit is carrying the entire army to 47% winrate, GW will still nuke it.
If there are no overperforming units, GW will apply point decreases or increases across to commonly used archetypes to raise or lower their overall win percentage.
Last, for each dataslate they take a closer look at one or two armies not functioning properly and try to do something to either fix the internal balance or adapt their army/detachment rules to work better.

Of course, whether those measures archive what they are trying to do is a completely different topic.

Therefore, buggies would only have a chance to get a second pass this edition if GW would use one of their army-fixing slots. However, with 4-5 viable archetypes, I highly doubt that the ork codex is even taken into consideration for a second pass.

**Tomsug**

Forceride wrote:
I am sorry Tomsug, but we have to agree we disagree. I am not entirely sure they have the acumen to make a decision so long into the future.

Now i can be wrong but i have no factual proof of GW being capable of that amount of 3d chess and forward thinking... On the contrary, it has shown that is absolute reactionary and difficult to change course.

We will see. Actualy, based on my profesional experience this is pretty simple type of 3d business chess GW is definitely capable of.

The “oh my gosh, they are stupid” moments we face comes from mostly from “efficienty first” on one side and absolutely unefficient “print the rules on the paper” on the other side. The problem that comes form the fixation on printed stuff is, that from the moment you approved the new rules on the highes councel, it takes half a year at least if you have a free hand and do not need any further approves. The result is that the rules comming out now are rules written year ago maybe… so have one rule app for the fix month fee like a netflix with the all rules - yes, that is super cool and handy. But it ruins the business with the nice color books. Old and new business models. THIS is a 3d chess

**Forceride**

Well, it is a win-win if they actually do it. It requires listening to the consumer..

I do hope you understand my skepticism.

On another note, i am somewhat starting to prefer warhorde? For some reason the flashgitz combo is a unit my entire army depends on. Every single time i have miss played them, the game ends in a loss.

I am now considering squigs with stealth as body guards.

Am i messing up or just fail at every level?..

**Jidmah**

Flash gits plus a MA big mek and a trukk is a huge brick of points, so it's only natural that misplaying them makes you lose the game against a good opponent. They have a very low efficient range, so you kind of need to use them like a melee unit. Therefore you need to either bring them in from reserves in place where they can threaten multiple units (and make sure those units can't just run out of range), or you deploy them as close to the center of the board as possible without exposing them.

I've had some good success with stealthy Mozrog and 3+1 squigs, the regular squigboss not so much as he doesn't hit hard enough without enhancements.

**Grimskul**

Jidmah wrote:
Flash gits plus a MA big mek and a trukk is a huge brick of points, so it's only natural that misplaying them makes you lose the game against a good opponent. They have a very low efficient range, so you kind of need to use them like a melee unit. Therefore you need to either bring them in from reserves in place where they can threaten multiple units (and make sure those units can't just run out of range), or you deploy them as close to the center of the board as possible without exposing them.

I've had some good success with stealthy Mozrog and 3+1 squigs, the regular squigboss not so much as he doesn't hit hard enough without enhancements.

Yeah, especially once your opponent has been exposed to the optimal firepower of the Flash Git Death Skwad, most players will factor their deployment of units accordingly to minimize ideal targets for you and try and make you overreach. This can also work in your favour by having your opponent constantly worry about their threat in the back of their mind if you put them in reserves and have them overcommit to killing them. As with most Ork lists, you want to do threat overload as much as possible so your opponent doesn't have an easy choice when it does arrive. Putting pressure on primaries and forcing them to split their attention is what you want to aim for.

**Jidmah**

Exactly. it's also worth keeping in mind that our units rarely get more than one or two good turns. You don't have to make a huge play with them during the first two turns if there is nothing worth doing.

Having your opponent hide from your shooty stuff might not be the most fun way to win, but it certainly is a way to win.

**Grimskul**

Not to get our hopes up too high, but we are getting a stand alone Grotsnik novel from Black Library:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/xqwu6c0l/da-mad-dok-is-in-grotsnik-puts-on-a-clinic-in-a-new-black-library-book/

BL is starting to have a pretty strong track record of releasing books tied to models in game, and given that Mad Dok Grotsnik has been purged as a resin model but is a full on OG character tied to our main faction leader, it would be interesting if we see a proppa version of him in plastic when they inevitably enter the "Psychic Awakening" or "Arks of Omen" phase for 10th edition.

**Afrodactyl**

I'd be very happy if we got a new Grotsnik mini, even if I don't use it in a list. The current one is so old it barely looks like any more than a vaguely Ork shaped blob. It would be nice if we get rules for him that aren't Legends as well.

I'd like to see Wazdakka come back as well, he's been out of the game for a long time and it could mean that we get a dual purpose Warboss on warbike kit at the same time.

The same would apply to an Old Zogwort/Weirdboy kit as well.

**Grimskul**

Afrodactyl wrote:
I'd be very happy if we got a new Grotsnik mini, even if I don't use it in a list. The current one is so old it barely looks like any more than a vaguely Ork shaped blob. It would be nice if we get rules for him that aren't Legends as well.

I'd like to see Wazdakka come back as well, he's been out of the game for a long time and it could mean that we get a dual purpose Warboss on warbike kit at the same time.

The same would apply to an Old Zogwort/Weirdboy kit as well.

That's what I'm banking on his model being a proper addition to the codex and not a Legends BL mini like Blackhawk was, given his history in the game being playable and existing in the lore for a while.

Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from dual purpose kits for a while now, barring a few rare exceptions, so as much as I would love Wazdakka and Old Zogwort as buildable kits, it seems GW wants to make bespoke models, particularly for characters, since I think that way they can make double the money out of you buying it separately for the generic HQ. The exceptions usually seem to be tied to larger models, so it depends on how big they make Wazdakka.

**Forceride**

Wait, it also mentions a "Painwagon"..

Consider myself intrigued.

**Jidmah**

Neither Wazzdakka nor Zogwort ever had official models though... Weirdboy dual built kit would be an easy win though, so maybe we get lucky.

I can absolutely see Badrukk and/or Grotznik coming back if they do a 10.5 loop this time though. Both have appeared multiple times in recent lore and novels, and are key figures to orks as a whole.