Tau 8th Edition Tactics

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**Kdash**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
I don't see it as a downgrade, but all the hype around Skyrays is bunk, in my estimation. Under ideal conditions (5 markers), you're getting a devastating alpha strike that causes around 9 wounds to a T7/3+ platform. Awesome. So you ALMOST killed that Razorback with your 150pt model which is now a really expensive and durable Pathfinder unit.

I think there's something to be said for a 150 point model that really effectively does damage to another roughly equivalent model all at once on one turn. It's a tempo unit, giving up the sustained damage of the competition (ionhead) for turn one "burst" damage.

I don't think it works in every list, or in every meta, but if we start to see for example something like a Stormraven meta again, or deathstars reliant on psychic powers to boost up their defenses, I can see tossing in a skyray or two as a dedicated not too expensive counter.

When it comes to rando marker lights you slap on Devilfish or whatever, I see it as a straight upgrade from before. I often see hunter killers included on imperial vehicles just to add a bit of threat to an otherwise innocuous transport, and the same principle applies here. A nice one turn punch at a long range.

One of the things that, to me, makes it interesting is that it opens up like you said: a nice one turn punch at a long range.

It definitely might be able to counter the Alaitoc Flyer nonsense though. Do Skyrays have the Velocity Tracker on them or the option to take one?
They have a VT stock, I believe. Chopping down flyers is really the only particularly good use I see for them, whether it's directly through their seekers or indirectly by added marker support.

To the above, yes, I expect the twin HBC Hammerheads to stay unchanged, points-wise. They're 70pts in IA: Xenos when the HBC was 55. Now that the HBC is 35, 70 for 2 HBCs seems pretty appropriate, right? I've been chirping about the HBC Hammerhead, but it doesn't seem to have gotten much notice. 24 S6, ap1 dmg2 shots is absolutely brutal. The 2 SMS (or drones or whatever) are just butter. It's 200pts for a serious buttload of firepower that probably hits on 2s if Longstrike is hanging out. That all assumes the points stay the same, of course, but I still think it'd be worthwhile for 30-40pts more.

PPD = Points per damage (Useful for multi-wound)
PPU = Points per unsaved (Useful for single wound)

Assuming 200 pt cost;

T7-9/3+ 50 PPD/100PPU
T6/2+/4++ 50 PPD/100PPU
T4-5/3+ 25PPD/50PPU

HRR Broadside w/ SMS
T8/3+ 51PPD/107PPU
T7/3+ 38PPD/80PPU
T6/2+/4+ 77PPD/160PPU
T4/3+ 41PPD/100PPU

Numbers are really comparable, HBC has range and volume advantage. I think it sits pretty firmly in the viable, and possibly competitive group that a good amount of Tau stuff is sitting at right now.

One thing to note in regards to the Twin Heavy Burst Cannon.

It is a FW unit entry and weapon. Unless it is FAQd as part of the T’au FAQ 2 weeks after the codex release, it will still remain with its current FW profile and points cost.

This needs to be taken into account when calculating current expected damage and PPW etc.

**Mandragola**

Noctem wrote:
FirePainter wrote:
Had my first game with new Tau tonight. Opponent was gracious to let me use the leaked point and rules. I took the following:

Spoiler:

Bork'an Battalion
Coldstar w/ 3 ion & relic plasma
Fireblade w/ puretide chip
3x8 fire warriors
Burstide w/ ats & tl
2x missilesides 2/ ats

Bork'an Battalion
Coldstar w/ quad fusion
Fireblade
3x8 fire warriors
ghostkeel w/ ion &burst ats & tl
2x5 pathfinders w/ pulse drone

Vior'la Vanguard
Coldstar w/ 4 ion
2x3 stealth teams
2 firesight marksmen

My opponent had a gunline tyranid army running jormungdr and kronus

Spoiler:

Battalion
Malenthrope
Nuerothrope
Prime w/ BS and deathspitter
2x 20 guants
3x3 warriors w/ deathspitter BS and 1 venom cannon each

Spearhead
2x flyrant w/ rending claws and devourers
2x exocrine
2 biovores
2x 3 hive guard ( 1 with impalers the other with shock cannons)

I won roll off for first turn. I aggressively ( too aggressively in hindsight)moved the coldstars up behind the stealthsuits. First round shooting was less then stellar. Half killed one exocrine, killed one unit of hive guard, a bunch of guants, and 2 warriors.

His turn the flyrants came in, the guants and warriors moved up. He smited/screamed my stealth suits away and then blasted my three commanders. Killed one in shooting, then failed to do much else ghostkeels took 2 wounds lost 3 Pathfinders, and a broadside survived one of the exocrine shooting twice with 2 wounds left ( bad rolls on his part). Flyrant double charged my two remaining exposed commanders and a warrior squad supported as well. Killed both (definitely too aggressive).

Turn 2 I opened up with everything. Five marked one tyrant and the broadsides did 9 damage each. Dead flyrant. Fire warriors killed all but the prime and 2 warriors as well as the guants. Riptide finished off the wounded exocrine and that ended my shooting phase. At this point my opponent conceded feeling that he didn't have the ability to get through my line.

Overall a good game but I feel that Tau should be able to out shoot nids. I need to not throw my commanders out right away and wait until better targets are available. -1 to hit is a problem but with the malenthope small bubble it didn't impact things to much.

I thought it was found out that Coldstars can't take Ion?

Indeed they can’t, but it’s not at all obvious from the rumours and isn’t covered in the main dump on 3++ that a lot of people have been going by. It’s only shown on the equipment list at the beginning of the army list section. Hopefully people aren’t out there converting coldstars with ion.

In any case, this is a useful batrep. Thanks for posting.

**Razerous**

Isn't the Tau Bor'kan specific strategem entirely useless.

You can spend 1CP to re-roll one die that determines the random no. of shots

or..

You can use the main rulebooks re-roll 1 dice strategem to re-roll one die, using that to re-roll one of your random-shot die.

Or am I missing something basic?

**Eihnlazer**

if you use the bor"kan strat you can also use the reroll a dice strat in the same phase.

**Ice_can**

Which given your playing tau is probably the phase your going to be wanting to reroll the most dice.

**FirePainter**

I had seen the nonion rumor for coldstars. None if the reviews I saw mentioned it. If it is true I will have to apologize to my opponent but to be fair all my commanders died turn 1 and only did a little damage anyway.

**A Town Called Malus**

Mandragola wrote:
Noctem wrote:

I thought it was found out that Coldstars can't take Ion?

Indeed they can’t, but it’s not at all obvious from the rumours and isn’t covered in the main dump on 3++ that a lot of people have been going by. It’s only shown on the equipment list at the beginning of the army list section. Hopefully people aren’t out there converting coldstars with ion.

In any case, this is a useful batrep. Thanks for posting.

Source for this?

**Replicant253**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Noctem wrote:

I thought it was found out that Coldstars can't take Ion?

Indeed they can’t, but it’s not at all obvious from the rumours and isn’t covered in the main dump on 3++ that a lot of people have been going by. It’s only shown on the equipment list at the beginning of the army list section. Hopefully people aren’t out there converting coldstars with ion.

In any case, this is a useful batrep. Thanks for posting.

Source for this?

He cited it in an earlier post. He watched a you tube video of a guy who has the book and froze certain screens.

**Mandragola**

Replicant253 wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Noctem wrote:

I thought it was found out that Coldstars can't take Ion?

Indeed they can’t, but it’s not at all obvious from the rumours and isn’t covered in the main dump on 3++ that a lot of people have been going by. It’s only shown on the equipment list at the beginning of the army list section. Hopefully people aren’t out there converting coldstars with ion.

In any case, this is a useful batrep. Thanks for posting.

Source for this?

He cited it in an earlier post. He watched a you tube video of a guy who has the book and froze certain screens.

Yeah this video, about 22 mins in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuztP8Alo4A

To be honest I don't think it's that big an issue. Coldstar is a bigger change for a fusion blaster commander, because he can use it to get within 9". A CIB commander only needs to get within 18", which is easy enough with deep strike or normal movement.

**FirePainter**

Yeah definitely missed that when I watched. Oops, though as o said it wouldn't have changed much in the match. Maybe I'll just run normal commanders for ion and have one fusion commander.

This also makes me want to try a team of triple ion suits as farsight and see if that has potential.

**Replicant253**

I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

**the_scotsman**

Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

**Ragnar Blackmane**

the_scotsman wrote:
Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

This. And you can fill the Devilfish with a cheap full squad of breachers which are great for taking more remote objectives and eliminating stuff that might already be there. And if whatever is sitting on that objective isn't a troop choice as well, only one Breacher surviving means you own it thanks to obsec. T'au (if you keep a drone nearby), Vior'la and FSE Breachers are great in the codex. Devilfish with Breachers worked out for me really well so far, one more thing in my list that completely overloads my opponents target priority. If left alone the Breachers take care of one target while the Fish constantly ties down as many high value units as possible in close combat.

**topaxygouroun i**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

This. And you can fill the Devilfish with a cheap full squad of breachers which are great for taking more remote objectives and eliminating stuff that might already be there. And if whatever is sitting on that objective isn't a troop choice as well, only one Breacher surviving means you own it thanks to obsec. T'au (if you keep a drone nearby), Vior'la and FSE Breachers are great in the codex. Devilfish with Breachers worked out for me really well so far, one more thing in my list that completely overloads my opponents target priority. If left alone the Breachers take care of one target while the Fish constantly ties down as many high value units as possible in close combat.

But then you can have 2 piranhas for the price of 1 devilfish? 42 pts is a lot of points actually.

**the_scotsman**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

This. And you can fill the Devilfish with a cheap full squad of breachers which are great for taking more remote objectives and eliminating stuff that might already be there. And if whatever is sitting on that objective isn't a troop choice as well, only one Breacher surviving means you own it thanks to obsec. T'au (if you keep a drone nearby), Vior'la and FSE Breachers are great in the codex. Devilfish with Breachers worked out for me really well so far, one more thing in my list that completely overloads my opponents target priority. If left alone the Breachers take care of one target while the Fish constantly ties down as many high value units as possible in close combat.

But then you can have 2 piranhas for the price of 1 devilfish? 42 pts is a lot of points actually.

No, unless I'm doing the math wrong, burst cannon+2 gun drone Piranha is 74pts, burst cannon+2 gun drone Devilfish is 116. 36% more expensive gets you more than double the durability and a generous transport capacity.

my point is not that 42pts is not a lot, just that it's worthwhile for what you get in almost all instances, and if you're just looking at the piranha as a gun platform putting out S5 shots, there's wayyyyyyy more efficient options for doing that. See stealth suits. Fire Warriors. etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primarily, they just got smacked really hard by the gun drone nerf. The devilfish got a nice -21 point reduction to make it still a good option, but the Piranha effectively went down only 1 point when it was not good before. If you had that 7 point reduction on the body and the 2 point reduction on the BC they'd probably be quite good, but the +8 from the gun drone nerf basically eliminated those gains.

**topaxygouroun i**

the_scotsman wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

This. And you can fill the Devilfish with a cheap full squad of breachers which are great for taking more remote objectives and eliminating stuff that might already be there. And if whatever is sitting on that objective isn't a troop choice as well, only one Breacher surviving means you own it thanks to obsec. T'au (if you keep a drone nearby), Vior'la and FSE Breachers are great in the codex. Devilfish with Breachers worked out for me really well so far, one more thing in my list that completely overloads my opponents target priority. If left alone the Breachers take care of one target while the Fish constantly ties down as many high value units as possible in close combat.

But then you can have 2 piranhas for the price of 1 devilfish? 42 pts is a lot of points actually.

No, unless I'm doing the math wrong, burst cannon+2 gun drone Piranha is 74pts, burst cannon+2 gun drone Devilfish is 116. 36% more expensive gets you more than double the durability and a generous transport capacity.

my point is not that 42pts is not a lot, just that it's worthwhile for what you get in almost all instances, and if you're just looking at the piranha as a gun platform putting out S5 shots, there's wayyyyyyy more efficient options for doing that. See stealth suits. Fire Warriors. etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primarily, they just got smacked really hard by the gun drone nerf. The devilfish got a nice -21 point reduction to make it still a good option, but the Piranha effectively went down only 1 point when it was not good before. If you had that 7 point reduction on the body and the 2 point reduction on the BC they'd probably be quite good, but the +8 from the gun drone nerf basically eliminated those gains.

What about if we leave the gun drones at home and just take the single fusion? Could be an alternative quick and cheap way to deliver fusion shots now that the commanders are limited. Plus the devilfish can't take fusion blasters so there's that.

**the_scotsman**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Replicant253 wrote:
I would be interested to read views on piranhas. I haven't seen them feature in the discussion so far.

For 42 points more I can have a Devilfish with identical guns, +2T, +6W, +1Sv, and 12 transport capacity.

I'm generally unimpressed by Piranha at current prices.

This. And you can fill the Devilfish with a cheap full squad of breachers which are great for taking more remote objectives and eliminating stuff that might already be there. And if whatever is sitting on that objective isn't a troop choice as well, only one Breacher surviving means you own it thanks to obsec. T'au (if you keep a drone nearby), Vior'la and FSE Breachers are great in the codex. Devilfish with Breachers worked out for me really well so far, one more thing in my list that completely overloads my opponents target priority. If left alone the Breachers take care of one target while the Fish constantly ties down as many high value units as possible in close combat.

But then you can have 2 piranhas for the price of 1 devilfish? 42 pts is a lot of points actually.

No, unless I'm doing the math wrong, burst cannon+2 gun drone Piranha is 74pts, burst cannon+2 gun drone Devilfish is 116. 36% more expensive gets you more than double the durability and a generous transport capacity.

my point is not that 42pts is not a lot, just that it's worthwhile for what you get in almost all instances, and if you're just looking at the piranha as a gun platform putting out S5 shots, there's wayyyyyyy more efficient options for doing that. See stealth suits. Fire Warriors. etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primarily, they just got smacked really hard by the gun drone nerf. The devilfish got a nice -21 point reduction to make it still a good option, but the Piranha effectively went down only 1 point when it was not good before. If you had that 7 point reduction on the body and the 2 point reduction on the BC they'd probably be quite good, but the +8 from the gun drone nerf basically eliminated those gains.

What about if we leave the gun drones at home and just take the single fusion? Could be an alternative quick and cheap way to deliver fusion shots now that the commanders are limited. Plus the devilfish can't take fusion blasters so there's that.

You can't. "A piranha is a model with a burst cannon and two gun drones." The only option listed is swapping the burst cannon for fusion, you are hard locked into those two gun drones.

**ryzouken**

the_scotsman wrote:
You can't. "A piranha is a model with a burst cannon and two gun drones." The only option listed is swapping the burst cannon for fusion, you are hard locked into those two gun drones.

If memory serves, the FW piranha variants replace gun drones with guns.

**Da-Rock**

Yeah, I am looking at more FW stuff for the things in the codex that have less value. The FW one has a much better gun selection, but at a point cost of course.

I am using Tetras for my speeder bikes I converted. I shouldn't have an issue with Markers.

**Bryan01**

TerminusEst wrote:
Since the drones have the sept keyword in the index (and I am assuming they do in the codex), they will get the benefits of the tenets.

Cheers

I suppose that makes Sa'cea the premier drone tenet as the +1 LD helps them more then most. Re-roll for marker drones is good as well.

Shame that kroot and vespid did not get the sept tenets. Obvious why they did not from a fluff perspective, but cultists for example get legion traits and access to stratagems such as veterans of the long war despite the fluff. Not too much of a mift as I think kroot at 5pts a pop is a good deal.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

I just started getting into Tau this year and am trying to decide on a Sept. From the codex reviews that show the different Sept Tenets it seems like the Tau Sept is the most flexible in terms of being able to throw a bunch of different units together and having them work okay, while each other Sept is better for a specific type of build. Am I right about that?

**Ice_can**

Kind of to get the most from the codex you would need to mix and match septs based upon what unit are in a detatchment. Unfortunately most of the name charictors are tau sept.
I'm currently planning tau borkan and farsight as my detachment septs

**Fenris-77**

I ike the Tau Sept for the ability to stack Darkstrider and the +1 TW strat. The overwatch is also pretty dandy against a lot of armies. Mixing in Vior'la for your mobile elements and probably the warlord (buffs and CP), sounds like a good mix. The downside is that I'd still want the extra range where possible, so that means Pathfinders and Pulse Drones, which is a lot more complicated and expensive than just taking Bork'an instead. I'll have to playtest a bunch and see how much use I get out of the +1 TW versus more reliable extra range. I do like the idea of Vior'la Breachers and Stealths, that sounds like fun.

**xmbk**

The problem with pulse drones is how easy they are to take out. If they matter, your opponent will easily remove them. If they don't, well...

**Mandragola**

xmbk wrote:
The problem with pulse drones is how easy they are to take out. If they matter, your opponent will easily remove them. If they don't, well...

This is true. I'm considering whether to put a pathfinder squad or two into devilfish, each with a PA drone. This is also a possible way to reduce drop count. I'm a bit unsure if it'll work but it's a plan. To be honest it's probably too much effort for the fairly limited effect it would have.

The idea would be to have a pair of devilfish, containing 2x6 and 1x5 fire warriors, 5 pathfinders, a PA drone and a cadre fireblade. That plus a commander makes a battalion, or two of them is well on the way to a brigade - albeit one that can deploy a lot faster than normal. Some of the pathfinders could be given ion cannons, and you could have the commander use Montka on them as they disembarked. It ought to be possible to get triple taps on turn 1 from 30 fire warriors just by disembarking and running forwards.

I think the devilfish could be reasonably useful themselves. You can stick a recon drone in two of them, giving them 16 cover-ignoring shots. I'm not sure if it has to get out when the PA drone does though.

I've got no idea what happens to drones if the pathfinders set up on a tidewall. It doesn't seem to be able to transport drones - only infantry - so it's not clear what happens to them.

**MilkmanAl**

I read an article from FLG that included an interesting Tau list. See Here for details: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/03/15/this-week-in-the-itc-for-40k/#comment-563684

Basically, it's drone spam plus Y'Vahras with minimal screening units. As far as I can tell, its purpose is to just keep the Y'Vahras alive all game. It's a really interesting concept for a list, and now that Borkan exists, Y'Vahras are even meaner than before. Drones reportedly don't auto-shield any longer, but they're still ample protection for our big guys. If you have enough of them around, your Y'Vahras are probably in good shape.

Speaking of Y'Vahras, what support systems are you guys thinking of putting on them? I've run ATS and target locks on mine historically, but with a 14" range, an EWO strikes me as potentially very useful. That's pretty much an absolute no-drop zone for your opponent unless he's tunneling in some gaunts or dropping some cheap demons or something. Any other unit can't really tolerate losing 2/3*3d6 (average of 7) models or taking 2*3d6 wounds. If you have 2 of those running around, you can potentially prevent drops in a huge percentage of the board - about 26%. I never found the target lock THAT useful, so switching it out for an EWO wouldn't be an issue.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Ice_can wrote:
Kind of to get the most from the codex you would need to mix and match septs based upon what unit are in a detatchment. Unfortunately most of the name charictors are tau sept.
I'm currently planning tau borkan and farsight as my detachment septs

I was thinking about keeping everything with one Sept just for the unified look, but actually Tau usually paint their armor in the appropriate camouflage for the environment and then have their Sept, Unit and other various markings in their Sept colors, right?

**Kdash**

Fenris-77 wrote:
I ike the Tau Sept for the ability to stack Darkstrider and the +1 TW strat. The overwatch is also pretty dandy against a lot of armies. Mixing in Vior'la for your mobile elements and probably the warlord (buffs and CP), sounds like a good mix. The downside is that I'd still want the extra range where possible, so that means Pathfinders and Pulse Drones, which is a lot more complicated and expensive than just taking Bork'an instead. I'll have to playtest a bunch and see how much use I get out of the +1 TW versus more reliable extra range. I do like the idea of Vior'la Breachers and Stealths, that sounds like fun.

Does Darkstriders +1 to wound ability work in the same way as his -1 toughness does currently? (as in, pick 1 tau sept infantry unit and 1 enemy unit)? If so, i take it, most people are running Darkstrider alongside Stealth Suits?

**FirePainter**

I'd recommend darkstrider to be used with rail rifles pathfinders they get more mortal wounds that way.

**Kdash**

FirePainter wrote:
I'd recommend darkstrider to be used with rail rifles pathfinders they get more mortal wounds that way.

That suddenly makes the pathfinders a very squishy, high costed unit though. So far, i'm not really buying all the pathfinder (markerlight or no markerlight) hype. 82 points (technically 127) for 3 chances for a mortal wound on a 5+ to wound (4+ if you spend 3CP...), just feels a little weak in my mind. I'd just personally divert the small arms fire of a couple of units at them and just completely neuter them straight away.