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frgsinwntr wrote:what do you mean by a personal relationship? Do you get calls at night? Are there voices in your head? Are you simply attributing things to a higher power that can be explained in simpler logical ways? I'm not sure what you mean here and would like some clarification on what this relationship entails.
there can't be an attempt to disprove god. Not sure you understand Arkhams razor, but since it can't be tested, it is disregarded as a possible explanation. However, If you are so inclined, then go ahead and prove his existence in a testable way.
The proof of his/her existence is your job being the person who claims it to be true.
Actually it's not really my job to "prove" anything. It's my job to bring the good news (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. God is the one that reveals himself. It's your job to accept or reject him. I think I have testafied that at one time in my life I was much like you frigs, an athiest and a sceptic.
As far as me describing my relationship with God it would be like trying to explain to you what it feels like to fly an airplane or to perform a parachute jump. If you haven't really experianced it, you would never fully undertstand it.
I do experiance the leading of the Holy Spirit, which has been described as "the still small voice of the Holy Spirit". You could call it a quickening or a soul stirring of sorts. Those are my less than adequate attempts at tryng to explain something so profound it defies description.
The bottom line is you can "experiance" God. Christianity is not blind faith, it is faith based on fact and relationship.
As I'm reading the stuff about Horus et.al just goes to prove to me more than anything that people will make up anything to sell books (Tom Harpur) or sell movie tickets (Bill Marr).
Actually it's not really my job to "prove" anything. It's my job to bring the good news (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. God is the one that reveals himself. It's your job to accept or reject him. I think I have testafied that at one time in my life I was much like you frigs, an athiest and a sceptic.
As far as me describing my relationship with God it would be like trying to explain to you what it feels like to fly an airplane or to perform a parachute jump. If you haven't really experianced it, you would never fully undertstand it.
I do experiance the leading of the Holy Spirit, which has been described as "the still small voice of the Holy Spirit". You could call it a quickening or a soul stirring of sorts. Those are my less than adequate attempts at tryng to explain something so profound it defies description.
The bottom line is you can "experiance" God. Christianity is not blind faith, it is faith based on fact and relationship.
As I'm reading the stuff about Horus et.al just goes to prove to me more than anything that people will make up anything to sell books (Tom Harpur) or sell movie tickets (Bill Marr).
GG
If you aren't taking the stance of proving God, you can't therefore argue he exists now can you? To do so would be like saying Santa Claus exists, yet never offering evidence.
And yes, I reject a concept of God that doesn't stand up to testing. No I am not an Atheist. I prefer Agnostic, Open to the idea, but not ready to believe the first Story with out evidence : )
generalgrog wrote:
As I'm reading the stuff about Horus et.al just goes to prove to me more than anything that people will make up anything to sell books (Tom Harpur) or sell movie tickets (Bill Marr).
I'm not really sure why you consider Harpur's claims to be so offensive. He's simply arguing that the story of Jesus has a lot in common with ancient mythology. This shouldn't be surprising as mythology is ultimately a way of dressing up the human condition. Two cultures with a common heritage are quite likely to reference similar ideals using words with a common etymological heritage. That fact does nothing to delegitimize a religious claim. Unless you're stuck on the notion that only Christianity could possibly serve as the origin point for those prescriptions which it has co-opted.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
frgsinwntr wrote:If you aren't taking the stance of proving God, you can't therefore argue he exists now can you? To do so would be like saying Santa Claus exists, yet never offering evidence.
And yes, I reject a concept of God that doesn't stand up to testing. No I am not an Atheist. I prefer Agnostic, Open to the idea, but not ready to believe the first Story with out evidence : )
generalgrog wrote:
As I'm reading the stuff about Horus et.al just goes to prove to me more than anything that people will make up anything to sell books (Tom Harpur) or sell movie tickets (Bill Marr).
I'm not really sure why you consider Harpur's claims to be so offensive. He's simply arguing that the story of Jesus has a lot in common with ancient mythology. .
No he's not. He is arguing, or I should say he is rehashing old ideas from the 19th and early 20th century which tried to claim that the story of Jesus was a myth constructed from the Horus story.
He has done a lot more than imply commonality. He is really making a claim of myth.
there are a lot that shows up GG... that are similiar in other cultures... here are some examples of virgin birth.
Christianity
Jesus: The central figure of the Christian faith was conceived, according to the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke, in the virgin Mary without a father through the Holy Spirit (see virgin birth of Jesus). This virginal conception is often confused with Mary's Immaculate Conception, a belief held by Roman Catholics as defined by the dogma in which the Blessed Virgin was conceived without 'the stain of original sin' from her parents.
Hinduism
Virgin births are a common theme in Hinduism.
It is widely believed that the avatars taken by Vishnu on earth were virgin "births".
In the Mahabharata epic, Karna was born to Queen Kunti by the god Surya, before her marriage to King Pandu.[1] Because she called him, the god of the Sun gave her a child, but took care not to breach her virginity, as she was as yet unmarried. After marriage, Kunti's husband, King Pandu, was cursed by a childless Brahmin, who declared that if the King were to embrace either of his two wives, then he would die. Kunti called upon the charm she had used to bear Karna in order to call other gods to her and her co-wife. In this way, the Pandavas were bestowed upon them by the gods. The implication, then, is that all six of these heroes (the five Pandavas and their brother Karna, the tragic antihero) were the results of pure, virgin births.
Many centuries later, the poet Kabir was also said to have been born of a virgin widow (a Brahmin), through the palm of her hand. Like Karna, Kabir was sent down the river in a basket; he was found and adopted by a family of Muslim weavers, downstream.[2] [3] Presumably, this (presumably posthumous) account—which depicts Kabir as secretly descended from Brahmins—was intended to legitimise Kabir's religious authority in the eyes of the Hindu population who venerated his works. This story is absent from Muslim and Sikh accounts of Kabir's work.
Assyrian and Babylonian mythology
Zoroaster:[1] The story of Zoroaster's Virgin Birth originates in the common era and is a much later interpretation, possibly to compete with the stories concerning Jesus[citation needed]
Greco-Roman mythology
Mars[2][3]
Perseus: Perseus was the son of Danaë. She was locked away while a young girl, to prevent her having children, but Zeus came to her in the form of a shower of gold and impregnated her. The shower of gold has from ancient times been interpreted as a reference to bribery of those in charge of keeping her. The Greek Anthology has the following: ZEUS, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity.
The flood one was interesting, especially if there was also one in the Epic of Gilgamesh (considering how bad flooding was in Mesopotamia that's not surprising).
I can see the similarities between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and Pandora's Box also.
The rest of the connections were pretty weak, though. Of course the same things were created in both stories, those things exist, they must have been created. Of course both are going to have a lot of stories about war and kings, both civilizations were monarchies for most of the time, and frequently at war. Saying that's evidence of the Jewish stories having been stolen from Greek stories was silly.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
The flood one was interesting, especially if there was also one in the Epic of Gilgamesh (considering how bad flooding was in Mesopotamia that's not surprising).
I can see the similarities between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and Pandora's Box also.
The rest of the connections were pretty weak, though. Of course the same things were created in both stories, those things exist, they must have been created. Of course both are going to have a lot of stories about war and kings, both civilizations were monarchies for most of the time, and frequently at war. Saying that's evidence of the Jewish stories having been stolen from Greek stories was silly.
Oh, I know, my criticisms were directed at the writer of the article for going on his tangent near the end.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
generalgrog wrote:
No he's not. He is arguing, or I should say he is rehashing old ideas from the 19th and early 20th century which tried to claim that the story of Jesus was a myth constructed from the Horus story.
The dismissal of Jesus' existence is at best a minimal component of the text. I took the general claim to be one of absence with regard to direct, extant evidence of that fact. This makes sense given that the book itself was written as sort of love letter to gnosticism.
generalgrog wrote:
He has done a lot more than imply commonality. He is really making a claim of myth.
A claim of myth isn't necessarily a claim of falsehood. The story of Jesus is a legendary tale with many supernatural elements, pretty much the definition of mythic.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
generalgrog wrote:
No he's not. He is arguing, or I should say he is rehashing old ideas from the 19th and early 20th century which tried to claim that the story of Jesus was a myth constructed from the Horus story.
The dismissal of Jesus' existence is at best a minimal component of the text. I took the general claim to be one of absence with regard to direct, extant evidence of that fact. This makes sense given that the book itself was written as sort of love letter to gnosticism.
generalgrog wrote:
He has done a lot more than imply commonality. He is really making a claim of myth.
A claim of myth isn't necessarily a claim of falsehood. The story of Jesus is a legendary tale with many supernatural elements, pretty much the definition of mythic.
generalgrog wrote:Again if your talking about macro evolution and or big bang theory as "proven science" you would be wrong and "clinging" to scientific dogma.
There has been observed speciation. Groups of fruit flies were seperated and within four years had become different species, as incapable of breeding across the two populations.
Mice introduced into the Faeroe Islands speciated from the originator species over the 250 years from introduction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cryonicleech wrote:Damn it, this again.
Hopefully, I can kill this beast.
People will believe in God, people won't
My Gosh! Simple as that!
That'd be pretty dull. Talking about what people believe goes a long way to understanding how they work. As long as it's civil, it can be a really interesting topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/22 03:36:43
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Indeed. Last time I got in a Dakka religion thread, I had a lot of fun.
This one already belongs to Wrex, though... :(
I don't believe in anything I've seen no evidence of, like Necrons winning games, or God.
I won't try to disprove them - I neither have the capacity to formulate an experiment that can do so, nor indeed the desire, I firmly believe that proving, beyond reasonable doubt, that there is no god (which is more likely than the opposite) would LITERALLY mean the end of the world.
As for the Universe coming about 'by accident' - unless I missed something, it didn't. It's creation was the first thing that was. There was no BB (Before Bang)...
The Genesis Story (Bible, not the band) is strange (even if) for no other reason than the fact that God takes so LONG to do the universe. Polish [insert Mexican, Americans!] builders would have had it done in half the time - and with fewer breaks!
Mind War, ftw! - Call that a Refused Flank?
mindwar_ftw@hotmail.com
Walking that Banning tightrope, one step at a time...
Cryonicleech wrote:Don't get me wrong, it's a fine discussion.
Once.
After the 5th Thread, I honestly think I've given up.
You're right, let's have another gun control thread instead
There's, like eight topics of conversation on the internet. Death penalty. Abortion. Why don't girls like nice guys? I'm going through a complex emotional situation and need to vent so how about you guys give me nice messages until someone comes along and tells me it was all my fault. Poor people are lazy/rich people are unscrupulous bastards.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:You're right, let's have another gun control thread instead
There's, like eight topics of conversation on the internet. Death penalty. Abortion. Why don't girls like nice guys? I'm going through a complex emotional situation and need to vent so how about you guys give me nice messages until someone comes along and tells me it was all my fault. Poor people are lazy/rich people are unscrupulous bastards.
Blah blah blah ZOMBIES!
This website can help you enlarge your penis for FREE*.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
"European modernity, which dominates the world politically, economically, and intellectually, may be leading us to decline?... I noted in regard to the modern European ego and it quest to control the world through thought that we have come to the end of the West's march from the ancient to the medieval and now to the modern period. I said that today we need to vanquish the standpoint of the modern ego. Now I can add that this also means overcoming the Western view of history... if we restrict ourselves to the West's standpoint of reflection, we will not be able to find the path that leads to the vanquishing of the alienation that separates human being from nature and from God. Nor can we vanquish the self-alienation that lies within human beings. In my view, it is precisely here that the deepest roots of the whole crisis facing human beings today can be found... Today, we have reached the point where all existence has been scattered and fragmented by the rise of nihilism. Now we must bring the history of karma to an end... we must overcome the principle on which the modern ego is based. We must vanquish historical consciousness."
From Zen and the Modern World, by Masao Abe
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I am pretty much done with this thread, as it has devolved into a, "You prove God doesn't exist!/No, YOU prove God DOES exist." I will say this though: Any of you who want to read a book about why an atheist found faith in Christ, one who in his own words went "kicking and screaming", read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." It is very good and very insightful. It is one of the books that helped to convince me about the existence of God and the veracity of Christ. Further reading would be the work of Blaise Pascal, a noted Enlightenment scientist, mathematician and philosopher. Or if you have any questions on Christianity in general, please feel free to e-mail me. Like I said, I am pretty much done with this thread, but if there is something that perks my interest I may come back. Great discussion thus far though.
DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+ How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Warhammer 40K:
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
"The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer shields or sparkle lasers."
-Illeix
JEB_Stuart wrote:I will say this though: Any of you who want to read a book about why an atheist found faith in Christ, one who in his own words went "kicking and screaming"
Can we also read books about Christians becoming athiests?
JEB_Stuart wrote:read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." It is very good and very insightful.
I liked The Great Divorce and the Screwtape Letters more.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
JEB_Stuart wrote:I will say this though: Any of you who want to read a book about why an atheist found faith in Christ, one who in his own words went "kicking and screaming"
Can we also read books about Christians becoming athiests?
You can read whatever you want, I was just providing a tip for people who expressed interest, or might have an interest, in understanding where I come from a bit better. C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton are undoubtedly some of the best Christian philosophers you can read.
Ahtman wrote:
JEB_Stuart wrote:read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." It is very good and very insightful.
I liked The Great Divorce and the Screwtape Letters more.
Both are great reads...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/09/22 10:20:47
DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+ How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Warhammer 40K:
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
"The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer shields or sparkle lasers."
-Illeix
The problem with "Mere Christianity" is that it purports to be a logical, reasonable discussion about why there must be Christ and God, but Lewis' logic falls apart very early, and he actually points it out himself but ignores it. He says that the only way that human beings could have some sort of a moral compass and tell good from evil is if there was a God who imbued that within us, and then he says something to the effect of not believing that the compass comes from any kind of natural, human instinct towards survival or some such.
In reality, that's probably where our moral compass DOES come from, because we're animals at heart like anything else, and we're social animals who form communities. The more we learn about psychology, the more it seems extremely likely. It's not actually in our nature to murder those who we consider "like us." If and when humans evolve past race and gender differences, you'll see cultural difference fade away as well, and there'll be a lot less crime and war.
None of that will have anything to do with Christ...it will have to do with humans being intelligent animals, and recognizing their own best interests.
On the earlier topic of how religion can be dangerous, here we go:
This couple already has three kids, and the mother has had some dangerous pregnancies. They use in-vitro fertilization to have their third kid, and they don't want their as-yet-used embryos to be left unused in part due to religious feelings, so they have them implanted...or so they think.
Turns out they are someone else's embryos.
I have no sympathy for these people. This is why I cannot stand so many branches of Christianity...so, if God makes it difficult for you to get pregnant, wouldn't that be a sign that God doesn't want you to have any more children? Apparently not, and so they turn to science for IVF.
Ethical and moral positions need to be ABSOLUTELY consistent to have ANY meaning whatsoever. Either you think that God speaks to you through events or you don't. If you do, then you have to listen to him ALL of the time, or you're a hypocrite and/or full of gak. Can't get pregnant? Don't have kids. God doesn't want you to.
Politics has the same problem. If you make a moral stand, it's incumbent upon you to apply those morals across the board. You don't get to pick and choose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/23 14:39:21
"Success is moving from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Cliff Bleszinski
yeah,
I feel sorry for those people. regardless if god exists or not, they wanted to give birth to their own flesh and blood. Science let them down, they didn't want to carry someone else's unborn child.
As a believer in evolution, their situation bothers me as I belive that the strongest and smartest people will provide their childern with the best chances in life.
Implanting someone with the wrong embryo works against evolution as the baby will get raised by parents whos DNA is either stronger or weaker.
. J/k, but do enjoy.
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts