There are many religions...

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**JEB_Stuart**

Panic wrote:yeah,
It's a historical fact... In your opinion.
We have people in this country with all it's record keeping that can't find out who their Great Grandfather was, or where a soldier who died 50 years ago is buried.

Historical facts have all the details of what Jesus got for his birthday, names of people he met, extensively documented discussions he held and accounts of the things he did what he had for his tea a few nights before he died? 2000 years ago....

Or is it more likely that people who make money from these gigs tell you these are facts? Finding truth for themselves and others where there is none?

in my opnion religions leaders offer no more hope of a better life than a email from a Nigerian banker.

Panic...

Maybe I will touch this with a 10 ft pole now that its on to history... So are you suggesting that all of these authors, to whom we largely owe our knowledge of a great portion of the Ancient world, as being false? Now, despite my personal beliefs, there is no way you can say a man by the name of Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist. If you claim that then Caesar really is just a salad, and Pompey is really just a name we assigned to a dead city...not to mention a fabricated general...Your conclusions on this subject are decidedly cynical and unrealistic.

**Frazzled**

Wrexasaur wrote:

DUH!!! It is waaaaay too obvious to be false.

Look out, its the Holy Reptiles!

**generalgrog**

Panic wrote:yeah,
I don't think we are approaching this from all that different a angle. I'm saying that all the evidence that indicates that Jesus ever lived is propaganda belonging/ originating from a company pushing it's product...

Panic...

You do realize that excepting the gospel accounts, the other authors I pointed out weren't Christians? They were Roman and Syrian historians.

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish Roman citizen
Pliny the Younger was a Roman provencial Governor
Tacitus was a Roman historian
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus Roman historian
Mara bar Sarapion Syrian

All the above were hardly sympathetic to Christianity, indeed somewhat critical. So they were hardly coolaid drinking Christian fanatics. So regardless of whether you believe the New testament account, you would be in the extreme minority of historians that believe that Jesus of Nazereth was a myth, or didn't really exist.

GG

**JEB_Stuart**

generalgrog wrote:
Panic wrote:yeah,
I don't think we are approaching this from all that different a angle. I'm saying that all the evidence that indicates that Jesus ever lived is propaganda belonging/ originating from a company pushing it's product...

Panic...

Pliny the Younger was a Roman provincial Governor
GG

Haha, I remember reading Pliny when I was in college. He had as much a man crush on Trajan as Cicero did on Pompey or Frazzled has on Dogma. He would write to Trajan and ask him, "Why am I killing Christians again? They haven't really done anything wrong, but I am killing still just for good measure." Remember, there was no such thing as genocide to the Romans, they would simply declare it as, "Roma Victoria!"

**Panic**

yeah,
So your historical facts are that 2000 years ago someone by the name of Jesus existed? I'd take odds on that.
I'd even bet that there was one or two Jesus's out there that were popular...

Doesn't prove that
1) god exists and made the world... space... stuff... everything...
2) the son of god existed, was called Jesus and walked amonst men doing little more than spreading love, telling a few stories and drinking free wine.

I never claimed to know any of the authors you mentioned, but I'll acknowledge the fact they arn't known widely... maybe their text contains no evidence of magical doings that would help propagate the myth, and thus only stir the accepted notion that Jesus was a common name, so are for the most part ignored by the corporation.

Panic...

**SilverMK2**

I think that what people are trying to say is that it is silly to argue that Jesus didn't exist, as there is a wealth of evidence that suggests that he did exist.

There is also a wealth of evidence, or at least writings, claiming all sorts of things about Jesus. Whether any of that is true, who knows.

**generalgrog**

Panic wrote:yeah,
So your historical facts are that 2000 years ago someone by the name of Jesus existed? I'd take odds on that.
I'd even bet that there was one or two Jesus's out there that were popular...

It's more than that, as those historians I noted mention accounts of miracles and refer to Jesus as "sorcerer". So I don't know how many Jesus' were walking around performing miracles at the same time.

Panic wrote:
Doesn't prove that
1) god exists and made the world... space... stuff... everything...
2) the son of god existed, was called Jesus and walked amonst men doing little more than spreading love, telling a few stories and drinking free wine.

Now your moving the bar...and changing your burden of proof. You exclaimed that people were making assumptions that Jesus and Buddha existed. I am just merely pointing out the historical fact that a Jesus of Nazereth did indeed exist, and in fact there are WELL KNOWN (by historians anyway) 3rd party accounts of a Jesus, that had been reported to be the "King of the Jews" and had peformed miracles. These are historcal facts that any historian in any college would be able to point to, not to mention any scholar specializing in a study of Jesus.

Panic wrote:
I never claimed to know any of the authors you mentioned, but I'll acknowledge the fact they arn't known widely... maybe their text contains no evidence of magical doings that would help propagate the myth, and thus only stir the accepted notion that Jesus was a common name, so are for the most part ignored by the corporation.
Panic...

See above...

GG

**JEB_Stuart**

Panic wrote:yeah,
So your historical facts are that 2000 years ago someone by the name of Jesus existed? I'd take odds on that.
I'd even bet that there was one or two Jesus's out there that were popular...

Doesn't prove that
1) god exists and made the world... space... stuff... everything...
2) the son of god existed, was called Jesus and walked amonst men doing little more than spreading love, telling a few stories and drinking free wine.

I never claimed to know any of the authors you mentioned, but I'll acknowledge the fact they arn't known widely... maybe their text contains no evidence of magical doings that would help propagate the myth, and thus only stir the accepted notion that Jesus was a common name, so are for the most part ignored by the corporation.

Panic...

I have not claimed, nor has anyone else on this thread, that God does in fact exist, made the world, etc. YOU made that a point not any of us. Also those of us who are debating the point of Christ's existence are not trying, at least I am not, to imply that Jesus was anything more than a significant historical figure, although I will admit my private beliefs do. This point is again something YOU brought up, most are simply pointing out that there is no way to say that a man know as Jesus of Nazareth, notice I have conveniently omitted the title of "Christ", did exist. Just because you do not know the authors that we referenced, does not mean that they are not widely known. They are all monumental figures in terms of our own modern historical knowledge of the Late Roman Republic/Early Roman Empire. I would suggest to read up on them, as they are some of the most important historians of all time. While they do not make reference to any miracles performed by Christ, they do note the man as a specific person, especially Josephus and Pliny.

**generalgrog**

Just as a clarification for JEB

Some of those historians did mention miracles

Flavius Josephus_from Testimonium Flavianum
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders"

Tacitus_from his Annals
"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14-37 at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular"

There are others but I don't have the time to write a book here.

GG

**JEB_Stuart**

generalgrog wrote:Just as a clarification for JEB

Some of those historians did mention miracles

Flavius Josephus_from Testimonium Flavianum
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders"

Tacitus_from his Annals
"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14-37 at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular"

There are others but I don't have the time to write a book here.

GG

My mistake, thanks for the correction. I am not perfect you know...unlike someone else.

**SilverMK2**

JEB_Stuart wrote:My mistake, thanks for the correction. I am not perfect you know...unlike someone else.

Thanks for noticing

**generalgrog**

SilverMK2 wrote:
JEB_Stuart wrote:My mistake, thanks for the correction. I am not perfect you know...unlike someone else.

Thanks for noticing

LOL

**reds8n**

In the eighth century, the archbishop of Crete, one Andreas Hierosolymitanus, quoted a description of Jesus Christ which (he said) could be found in a version of Josephus extant at that time. Andreas' report is startling. Jesus, he said, was a dark-skinned hobbit-sized hunchback with a big nose, thinning hair, a patchy beard, and eyebrows that joined in the center in a monstrous fashion.

**JEB_Stuart**

It is strange that he claims that Josephus makes no reference to Christ at all. I have sitting right next to me my Loeb Classical Library edition of Josephus and am staring right at a passage where he does reference Christ. And just for the record, the LCL is published by Harvard University Press, not Right Wing Fake History Publishing Incorporated. I only use those sources when I want to disprove Obama's citizenship and religious preference.

**Wraithlordmechanic**

I find it a little funny that kyoto hasn't chimed in after starting this thread.

It's like he started a bar fight then quietly left while everyone was otherwise occupied...

**Ozymandias**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:As a paladin I find myself thinking some deep thoughts lately...

Sweet, what level are you?

OT: I vote option 3.

**generalgrog**

I had heard from a friend of mine that had attended seminary that accounts of Jesus were that he would have been considered "ugly" by modern standards of the term ugly.

GG

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I find it a little funny that kyoto hasn't chimed in after starting this thread.

It's like he started a bar fight then quietly left while everyone was otherwise occupied...

Personally, I thinks it's been pretty well behaved.

GG

**dogma**

Clearly the answer is 1.

All worship our lord Ath.

**Nightwatch**

I'll just butt in now and say how happy I am that it hasn't come to a fight yet...
It usually does.
I think that there is a God (yes that's singular) and due to this I'm a practicing Catholic. It is indisputable that Jesus Christ existed, under whatever name you prefer, and it is my personal belief that the things the Bible tells us are true. Some of you might not, that's your chocie and I guess when you die you'll turn into a tree. Or something. I don't know much of what others believe, or if you believe anything at all. Oh and for you atheists out there, I'm actually honestly quite curious, what do you believe happens to you when you die? I know a few people who say "nothing", but that seems a bit of a cop out to me and also kind of depressing.
Of course, there is no hard proof of God's existence, but no one has been able to prove that God doesn't exist either.
I won't state anything about science now, because we don't need this to get any more heated.
But I would like to say, for when it is brought up, that Christianity does not oppose the theories of evolution, and in fact, supports them here or there. just because you were an ape once doesn't mean that God didn't decide that. After all, a sculpted model goes through a variety of forms before the power armour is perfect...

so I vote Yes there's a God.

**reds8n**

Oh and for you atheists out there, I'm actually honestly quite curious, what do you believe happens to you when you die? I know a few people who say "nothing", but that seems a bit of a cop out to me and also kind of depressing.

I don't think anything happens to you when you die, at least not with regards with some continuing form of existence like a soul or similar.

I don't quite see how this is anymore of a "cop out" than people believing that they'll go to some wonderful afterlife where everything will be perfect. That seems a cop out to me.

Depressing ? Maybe, but it is ( so to speak) a fact of life so there's no point getting bent out of shape about it.

Christianity does not oppose the theories of evolution, and in fact, supports them here or there.

Indeed. I find the way the opposition to the idea baffling even on theological grounds. Even if you to the literal word of god angle, there's mention of the "corners of the earth" and I don't see people using this to argue that the earth isn't round.

...I'm about to be proven wrong here as flat/square earthers appear from nowhere aren't I ?

**dogma**

reds8n wrote:
...I'm about to be proven wrong here as flat/square earthers appear from nowhere aren't I ?

Ask, and ye shall receive.

**MeanGreenStompa**

I'll just leave this here...

**reds8n**

they are telling you that water is bent !

Obviously, the world is static, the fixed center of the Universe. The sun, planets and stars all revolve around it (although not necessarily in circular paths), in a plane level with the flat Earth.

Obviously !

**dogma**

Its all clear now. The time cube intersects with the flat earth through Brian Blessed. Tell the people!

**Wrexasaur**

Enlightend"crazyguyontheinternetmachine... wrote:Do you realize that a 4 corner square rotating 1/4 turn creates a full circle? A full rotated square will create 16 corners, 96 hours and 4 simultaneous 24 hour Day circles within only a single imaginary cubed Earth roation.

Okay... glad that was cleared up, I was beginning to worry that I would never understand that.

How did you find this dogma? Dude is assbonkers-funny-money-honey-bunny-nuts... and I have only scratched the surface of this site... which appears to be either a journal of some sort of schizo, or a very well done parody of the same thing...

**Ozymandias**

I found this hilarious. Under Fighting the "Evidence"- Dispelling common myths about "proof" regarding round earth theory and Uncovering the conspiracy to withold the truth from the public:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

You get:

<This page is currently under construction. Please come back when we have our act together.>

Additionally:

Water. Regardless of which train of thought you follow, it covers over seventy-five percent of our planet's surface. And the atmosphere, also a fluid, covers the entire surface. The difference is why. While flat-Earthers know that the ocean is really just a large bowl, (with great sheets of ice around the edges to hold the ocean back), and the atmosphere is contained by a large dome, the backwards "round-Earth" way of thinking would have you believe that all those trillions of gallons of water and air just "stick" to the planet's surface.

Conventional thinking would suggest that the water would just run down the sides of the Earth (to use the analogy again, like droplets running down the sides of a beach ball) and fall into outer space, while the air would dissipate. Using the earlier mentioned idea of "gravitational charge" gives some credibility to the theory. If the fluids were static, then exposure to the gravitational field for a long enough period of time would allow their molecules to align themselves with and be pulled in by the field.

But fluids are not static, especially not in the atmosphere and oceans. Great ocean currents run both at the surface and deep below, carrying water across huge basins, keeping the solution far from stagnant. Jet streams of air travel at hundreds of miles per hour through the atmosphere. And windblown rainclouds carry vast quantities of evaporated seawater across miles of ground, releasing their load far from its starting point. Water or air that (according to "round-Earth" theory) starts on one side of the planet could end up completely on the other side in a matter of only a few days. With all this turbulence and motion, if the world were round, the oceans should all fall "down" into the sky, leaving the planet dry and barren, and the atmosphere would simply float away. Why, just look at the moon. It is round, like a ball, and yet it has no atmosphere at all.

**Panic**

yeah,
I don't believe that everything wrote in a book is the truth. Books are just another form of media, except they are more easily distorted and baised with every word translated and re-wrote or omitted. I don't think that a dude called Jesus, son of God, walked on water and then died for us... my opinion. Just a story that got exagerated through time because it sold bibles and kept the corporations top-execs rich?

So while we are looking at religions.
Lets look at one of my favorites the End Timers. Basically these guys want the world to end so they, the true believers can all go to heaven. At that point the rest of us die and go to hell...
Their beliefs are based on the book of revelations... which is thought to have been wrote by a refugee hiding from the Romans on a greek island... filled with magic mushrooms.
The book is filled with wild horrible visons and text, most believe to be the rantings of mad man. but the end timers take these visons and texts very seriously. blood will boil etc... They believe that certain events must occure to bring about the end times. One such event is 'the destroyed Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt on The Temple Mount'.
That would be easy except at the moment that's where a massive Mosque has been built... this doesn't put off the End Timers thou. who fund fundamentalist Jews to plot about the destruction of the mosque.

So we go from a nutter eating toxic mushrooms while hiding from the romans, writing in his book while high... to Christians goading Jews to Fight Muslims?
Evil and Self-Serving?

Panic...

**Ozymandias**

Wait a minute... This website is a joke! It has to be, and I've been duped.

After spending over sixteen million dollars and using over 48 thousand yards of industrial strength strapping tape, we of the Flat Earth Society were able to construct an enormously powerful neurotransmitter that can implant suggestions directly into the brains of the nearby non-Flat Earthers. Having set it up just outside of the Russian Antarctic exploration post (Vostok), we are awaiting word that all three scientists and 174 penguins have been shown the light.

**JEB_Stuart**

Panic wrote:yeah,
I don't believe that everything wrote in a book is the truth. Books are just another form of media, except they are more easily distorted and baised with every word translated and re-wrote or omitted. I don't think that a dude called Jesus, son of God, walked on water and then died for us... my opinion. Just a story that got exagerated through time because it sold bibles and kept the corporations top-execs rich?

So while we are looking at religions.
Lets look at one of my favorites the End Timers. Basically these guys want the world to end so they, the true believers can all go to heaven. At that point the rest of us die and go to hell...
Their beliefs are based on the book of revelations... which is thought to have been wrote by a refugee hiding from the Romans on a greek island... filled with magic mushrooms.
The book is filled with wild horrible visons and text, most believe to be the rantings of mad man. but the end timers take these visons and texts very seriously. blood will boil etc... They believe that certain events must occure to bring about the end times. One such event is 'the destroyed Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt on The Temple Mount'.
That would be easy except at the moment that's where a massive Mosque has been built... this doesn't put off the End Timers thou. who fund fundamentalist Jews to plot about the destruction of the mosque.

So we go from a nutter eating toxic mushrooms while hiding from the romans, writing in his book while high... to Christians goading Jews to Fight Muslims?
Evil and Self-Serving?

Panic...

I don't even know where to go with you anymore...Are you even reading the posts people put up?

**Panic**

Nightwatch wrote:Oh and for you atheists out there, I'm actually honestly quite curious, what do you believe happens to you when you die? I know a few people who say "nothing", but that seems a bit of a cop out to me and also kind of depressing...

yeah,
And that's just the point. when we die there is nothing.. how scary is that? but if you pop along to church once a weak, and fill the coffers you'll get a nice gold rosy after party! deal?

I think I'm a Existentialist although I'm not conviced, when I really think about it I don't think there is much point to anything, especially when people show you how small you are compared to a planet> a Star> a galaxay> the universe...

Panic...